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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ok here's some background. I just purchased a property that has a 3 acre pond on it. The pond has been in existence for many decades so I have only a general idea of what is in it. This much I do know...
So far approximately 70 Large Mouth Bass have been caught. Based upon a publication that I down loaded the bass appear to be under weight. For instance I caught a 13 inch bass that weighted 14 ounces. According to the publication (A relative weight publication produced by Alabama) the bass should have weighted 1.1 lbs (or 17.6 ounces). A 12 inch bass weighted in right at 12 ounces, the pub says it should weith 14.4 ounces. So my bass appear to be weighing about 80% of a normal bass.
In all the fishing we have done we have only caught 5 Green Sun Fish. That's all. I caught them from a kayak so I didn't get a chance to weigh and measure them but they were all about 6 to 8 inches long and looked fairly healthy.
After reading this site I purchased a seine and did some fry netting - tons of bass fry, very few Green Sun Fish fry. I also caught what I think were some form of minnow. I didn't have my camera then so I'm not positive what they were.
Anyway it seems like my pond is way out of balance in the preditor to prey relationship.
I'm thinking about adding some more Green Sunfish or possibly Blue Gill.
So here are the questions..
How many should I add to a 3 acre pond?
Is there a correct time of year to add them?
What size fish should I add?
Should I stick will the Green Sunfish or add Blue Gill?
I would greatly appreciate any and all input!
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Oh and after reading my post I just realized that I wan't very clear that no other fish have been caught except the LMB and GSF so besides one cat fish that I saw swimming through the shallows and the possible minnow netting I think that those are the only types of fish in the pond.
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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BG would be much better forage for your LMB than the GSF. Since they produce more young each year, there is more for the bass to eat.
If you purchase them from a hatchery (or catch them in another pond/stream/lake, for that matter) make sure to get regular BG, not Hybrid BG (which are BGxGSF and will not help your forage situation). Commercially shipping fish is usually done in cooler weather (temps under say 75-80 degrees) to reduce strss on the fish; that means Spring and Fall for most of us. If you transfer them yourself, it can be done in hotter weather IF you set up a chilled, aerated cooler to haul them in. There are a few threads detailing different successful designs.
If you add adult BG, which would be preferable to prevent their being eating by adult LMB (and adult GSF) in the pond, 50 to 100 adults per acre is a good figure to shoot for.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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It may not hurt to also remove some LMB, maybe start w/ 25-50 per acre?
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Theo, there is a fish farm near me (approximately 15 miles) that has BG, RES and GSF so fortunately shipping probably won't be a problem. Based upon your post and what I have been reading elsewhere I think that I will add BG. Ewest and Theo, I will try to get some good photos of the next one I catch. Based upon photos I have downloaded they look like GSF in that their body is more stretched length wise (sort of more bass shaped) than BG shaped. (Does that make sense?) But after looking at that thread who knows. I'm just a bean couter not a fishologist. Another dumb question, how do I ensure that I am getting pure unaduterated BG and not a mongrel hybrid? Is there a urine test or something? Jeez, I feel so ignorant about this stuff!
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Urine test? Who says beancounters are dry and humorless? Actually, with some practice you can tell the difference. That is, unless you are getting fry. Now, that's tough. If you really worry about it, buy 2 to 4 inch stockers and examine each before they go in the pond. If any don't look right, toss them.
For the most part, you shouldn't have to worry. IN MY OPINION, for most of us, a couple of hybrid or green sunfish really isn't much of a problem. I expect most of the BG purists would love to have some greenies like the ones D.I.E.D. catches.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Jeff :
Check out the source well before purchasing. Then ask to go by and see the fish. With a little effort you can tell them apart. If you have GSF and add BG you may well end up with a few HBG. They will take up space and not add much to the forage base as they will be 90+ % male. But they grow well and are easy to catch. I don't think it will be a big deal anyway. The post referenced above and the Wisc. Fish Id site have pics of juvenile GSF , BG and crosses.
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hey jeff, thanks!! i just got an answer to one of my questions for you on another thread.......the local fish farm DOES HAVE RES? i really want to stock my pond w/ RES. i'll send you a PM so we can correspond off-line.
thanks for the GSF plug Dave. those pigs are a blast.
GSF are people too!
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Dave, I got your email and responded. You are gonna stock the dreaded RES? (Somehow it seems appropriate that the theme song from Jaws should be playing)
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Ewest, I have attached the only photo I have of one of the five GSF that we caught. It is a lousy photo but the best that I have. I rotated the photo 90 degrees sideways (the fish is not actually defying gravity). The fish measured about 7 inches long and 3 inches wide. I didn't get a weight (dad caught the fish, mom took the photos and they threw him back, all while I was chasing bass in the kayak). What do you think? A GSF? A hybrid? Or too lousy of a photo to tell?
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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I think that's a straight GSF. I can't discern any bluegill features at all.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Not a bad photo at all, compared to many of mine.
Looks like GSF, not a hybrid, to me.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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Jeff : From that photo I would say that is much more GSF (very high %) than anything else. I can't say obviously that it is pure or give a %. It has all the markings of a GSF except the white underside (some discriptions don't even list a white underside). In addition one trait can easily be missing from a population. One way to tell is on the next few you catch take pics including of the gill rakers. Here is some id info . From Wisc. Fish ID system. You can take this info or better yet download the software and look at all the pics and descriptions etc. http://wiscfish.org/ GSF Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in). Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays. GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch. BG BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch. HBG Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers Let us know what you see and find out. These should help GSF GSF gill rakers HBG HBG (Bg x GSF) gill rakers
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Jeffhp - Here is another vote for realtively pure GSF. Note the 4 emerald streaks on the gill cover. I never saw a hybrid BG with that many distinct emerald cheek streaks. Note the nice round short pectoral fin. If there was some other sunfish genes present the fin would be more slightly to noticably more pointed. A third feature is the narrow characteristic GSF body depth. As an example- Compare the body depth of the GSF and hybrid in John Lyons photos. Belly (abdomen) color can be quite variable in GSF from various water bodies. Descriptions of GSF do not mention abdomen color because it is a variable feature and not a reliable trait for identification. Taxonomic descriptions usually only mention reliable or consistant traits.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Thank you all for the replies. The next one I catch I will take better photos including the gill rakers.
Sorry for the large photo, I forgot to resize it to a more page friendly size.
I can tell you one thing these GSF sure fight when caught!
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Originally posted by jeffhasapond: ..............
I can tell you one thing these GSF sure fight when caught! Yes they do, and looks like same variation (of GSF) i have Jeff, only a little bit smaller ....if you havent looked already there are some pics posted here (about halfway down page): D.I.E.D.s GSF
GSF are people too!
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Great photo's Dave.
Any luck finding RES in our area?
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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The guy in Elk Grove said he might have some later this summer.....After it cools down a bit, I'm going to contact him again and see if I cant get some.
GSF are people too!
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