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#233107 - 09/01/10 03:00 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Bugermeister,
I'm glad to here that the levels aren't as bad as you thought. even with all the pines. When I did the dirt work around the pond I made sure everything slopes away from the pond and not into it. Also the ground here is so hard that when my well was dug, 580ft, the man burned up 4 drill heads and it took 9 days to drill. He said that he had burned one or two bits on well over 600ft but never 4 in 580.

The only water drop I get is from evaporation. It rained 3" to 4" a day for 5 days last year and the water only saturated 2". When I dig here I use a pick ax.
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#233166 - 09/02/10 07:37 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
The gears just don't stop turning! I would like some feed back on a plan for applying the Hy Lime and Alum.

The day before I go the pond, Friday afternoon

1) Place two 55 gal plastic drums in the bed of my truck
2) In drum #1 mix Hy Lime and fresh water at a rate of 1 lb
to 1 gal
3) In drum #2 mix Alum and fresh water at a rate of 1lb
to 1 gal

When I get to the pond, Saturday afternoon

4) Put generator in bed of truck
5) Upon arrival at the pond add enough fresh water to both
drums and mix to a viscosity thin enough to spray
6) Drop in sump pump with garden hose attached in Hy Lime.
Hose will have 10'- 3/4" pvc attached with spray head
7) Turn on aerator to help circulate pond
8) Start generator and plug in sump pump
9) Have my brother drive around pond as I spray Hy Lime slurry
10) After all the Hy Lime has been dispensed turn off aerator
11) Move pump to Alum drum and repeat the process until drum
is empty

I'm hoping this will speed the process of adding the chemicals with the least amount of stress on the fish.

Would there be any adverse effect of the Hy Lime or Alum by dissolving them the day before application?
Would the Hy LIme just turn to a hard clump in the bottom of the drum?
Would the Alum be spent or less potent?

Donald



Edited by hd82 (09/02/10 10:02 AM)
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#233174 - 09/02/10 10:10 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Online   content
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Donald,

If you try to mix early, the lime will only partially dissolve and the alum will turn into a block in the bottom of the barrel.

Second, DO NOT apply the lime first---apply it after the alum treatment or alternate the applications and always apply the lime over where you applied the alum. (Alum is relatively slow to change PH where the H lime is virtually instant in action and could kill the fish from PH shock)

Third, TAKE your time! This is a slow proccess and accuracy is imprtant. Speed will cause MORE stress to your fish by reducing the needed acclimation time.

Fourth, apply both products over the deepest areas first in a circular pattern working outwardly toward the shorelines. This allows the fish escape areas to avoid the PH changes and is very important.

Fifth, Spread the Alum evenly and proportionatly over the water----more lime/alum over the deeper areas than the shallow.

Sixth, leave the aeration off!!!! Circulation will make the Floc particles break up and can reduce or stop the whole process. Leave the aerator off at least 24 hours---48 would be better. Both the lime and the alum are flocculants.


Remember, the Alum will fall through the water column adding clay as it falls. The less evenly or less proportionate, the less effective it will be.

Again, take your time and don't rush.

Good luck!




Edited by Rainman (09/02/10 10:16 AM)
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#233176 - 09/02/10 10:21 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
Rainman Online   content
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You will want to add a shut-off valve to your discharge pipe to prevent wasting the alum/lime.
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#233177 - 09/02/10 10:31 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
I was just looking for a way to make sure all of both products were thouroghly dissolved before beginning the process.
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#233179 - 09/02/10 10:41 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Online   content
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The Hydrated lime will readily dissolve in water, but the Alum never truly dissolves, it becomes a slurry and will need to be stirred a lot at first and then occasionally during application. The Alum slurry will always have a few stubborn granules but your sump pump won't have a problem.

I wonder more if the pump will be able to develop enough pressure to spray the needed distance from the shore. The best "spray pattern" is a fan shaped spray.

I personally use a boat equipped with a boomless sprayer to clear client ponds. A small gas powered trash pump with the outlet necked down to a 1/4" pipe nipple tat has the outlet end smashed nearly flat and closed works well also.
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#233184 - 09/02/10 11:03 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
I played around with it yesterday at my house in the city. I reduced the 1-1/2" outlet from the pump to 3/4" hose fitting, then attached the 50' hose and a garden fan spray nozzle. Then put the pump in a 30gal garbage can full of water. I times the spray to fill a5 gal bucket, it took 1min 15 secs.

I'm going to refine the delivery method when I get hom elater this morning. The pond is at best 50' wide, if I can get 25' or so from each side I should be able to cover the pond. Second option is to use a 120' hose and leave the drums on the end nearest the well house, get on the ferry (i changed the ferry in the pic to now move north and south, pic shows west and east) and start at the far end and work my way back with one solution then the other.
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#233187 - 09/02/10 11:14 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
esshup Offline
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I'd have a back-up plan in place just in case the fan nozzle clogs from any undissolved particles.
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#233189 - 09/02/10 11:20 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: esshup]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Always have a plan "B", plan "A" was the truck.

Plan "B" for nozzle is 10' PVC at end of hose with shut off valve, at the end of pipe glue and adapter to 3/4" MPT with cap. Cap has a slit cut, sorta like the end of a pressure washer. Still haven't perfected but working on it.
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#233191 - 09/02/10 11:27 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Trash Pump? Don't have one or know what it is. Wonder if this would work?

http://www.harborfreight.com/general-merch/plumbing/1-inch-clear-water-pump-1479.html
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#233194 - 09/02/10 11:28 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Online   content
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Make life easier and just screw on a water hose nozzle and adjust it to the spray pattern you like. Cheap plactic, "selectable patter" nozzles are only about $3 at Wal-Mart.

Like I said, it is critical that you start in the deepest areas and work your way to the shallows along with speading the spray the Alum in thin even patterns.

The Hy Lime is far less important and can even be broadcast dry over treated areas. It will dissolve quickly and spread evenly throughout the water naturally.
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#233198 - 09/02/10 11:40 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
Rainman Online   content
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The pump you listed is much better than a sump pump, but I like the small 2-cycle water pump Harbor Freight has similar to this http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-inch-clear-water-pump-with-25-hp-ohv-gas-engine-98013.html

You can use adaptors to use the cheap plastic sump pump hose with it.

(The 2-cycle pump is very light weight and has a 1 inch inlet/outlet)

In this case, FLOW is not nearly as important as pressure. You need pressure to get both distance and to get a good spray pattern.
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#233199 - 09/02/10 11:42 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
Rainman Online   content
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Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6916
Loc: St Louis, MO area
hd82, you can always call me with questions. Just click my signature link to find my number.
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#233201 - 09/02/10 11:51 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Thanks Rainman, I'll look into that pump. Since I have electric at the pond I thought and electric would be better.

Also thanks for the info and invite for me to call.
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#233202 - 09/02/10 11:53 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
Rainman Online   content
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This is similar to the rig I use on my spray boat. Mine is 35 gallons and has a beefier pump. The nozzles are quite small and it has never clogged (unless I don't clean it after use). They are much more expensive but can be very useful around the property for other uses. It also comes with a hand wand that I use to spray near the shoreline...it will reach out 35 feet+.

http://www.nationwidewholesaledirect.com/catalog/item/2380284/1841284.htm
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#233210 - 09/02/10 01:06 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
Cisco Offline
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Registered: 08/20/09
Posts: 738
Loc: DFW & Cisco,TX
I rented a trash pump for $30.00 a day when I did my pond. It came with about a 30' long 1 1/2" dia fire hose, nozzle and strainer for the sution hose. It worked fine.
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#233278 - 09/02/10 05:24 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Cisco]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Here's the rig and pic of jugs with Alum and Hy Lime:

Each jug has corresponding amounts of Alum and half as much Hy Lime. The mayo jar is portional amt of just Alum, the Ragu jar is the control of pond water

This the pump from Harbor Freight with 1" in/out

Garbage can full of water

Sprayer set on vertical spray

10' x 3/4" PVC with hose attached

I figure I can ride the ferry to the deep parts and work my way towards shore.

Can I do it in sections, ie. Do the end on the north side with Alum then HY Lime, wait a bit then do the south end?

Just so that I completely understand, I'm not a chemist so help me out here. If I dissolve the Alum in the garbage can before spraying what will the clay particles attach themselves to?

Not to discredit any member or this forum but I am getting conflicting procedure as for as what goes first. The ph is already below 6.5. If I put the HY Lime first will it bring up the ph to more acceptable levels before adding Alum which will lower the ph?

From what I read in my search it is recommended to add Hy Lime prior to Alum. Once again I am trying to understand so that I can do this to the best of my ability with as much info as possible.
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#233295 - 09/02/10 06:29 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Online   content
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hd82, the hydrated lime will raise your ph almost instantly, and often to lethal levels. Even if the final level is not lethal, the fish will still be shocked from the sudden change.

The alum takes, at a minimum, several minutes to lower ph and the fish can better tolerate the change.

The shock factor is also why you apply the alum first and start in the deepest part of the pond working slowly toward the shallows when applying. This both allows for the fish to have "normal ph" water to escape and allows the "refuge" water to change ph gradually while the chemicals spread.

The best way to apply is to do sections as you said by first applying alum followed by the lime solution.
.
That 2-cycle pump you got is the one I use also. It will work well for you.

I'm not sure what your question is about what the clay attach to but....Suspended clay particles (colloidal clay) are negatively charged and constantly repel each other like the same poles of magnets repel each other. Aluminum Sulfate has a +3 positive charge and Hydrated lime has a +2 positive charge. The negatively charged clay is attracted to the positively charged alum and lime molecules. These particles quickly clump onto the positive molecules, gain weight, and fall from the water column and sink to the bottom.

Once you reach what I call the tipping point. you will see "clouds" of clay gathering in your water like clouds form in the sky. If clearing does not occur you can increase the treatment the next day or the same day to reach the tipping point. You'll know it when you see it. It is VERY cool. Be sure to turn off your aerator as you want the water as calm as possible for the best results. Take your time and cover the entire area as I've said (more alum/lime over deeper water than in shallow water) and you'll be fine.

Don't be surprised if you see your water getting green right away from the new light penetration either....this is a good thing.


Edited by Rainman (09/02/10 06:39 PM)
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#233297 - 09/02/10 06:32 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
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The confusion you have may lie in the fact that we have suggested you also add AGRICULTURAL lime to and around your pond since it is acidic. This is a different lime entirely- slow acting and can help your pond for years to come.


edit: I would suggest your shut-off valve be where you intend to hold your pipe for quick accessability.


Edited by Rainman (09/02/10 06:34 PM)
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#233298 - 09/02/10 06:36 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Thanks again,
Now I have the courage, I mean knowledge to do it this weekend. Being Labor Day I'll have three days to do it istead of my usual day and a half. I'll try to take some pics so that all can see the results of their help.
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#233300 - 09/02/10 06:41 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
I went back outside after the I posted the pictures and added the valve near the hose connection. Nothing has been glued as yet, wanted to get your input before making it permanet.
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#233301 - 09/02/10 06:51 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
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That's where I would put it since it will be easier to get to quickly.

One final thought, wear eye protection and a dust mask. The alum is not so bad but the powdered Hy lime is very caustic and smaells like pure ammonia when you breath it in. It can damage mucus membranes easily. Keep a jug of clear water handy to flush your eyes if needed. Tears will prevent eye damage, but it hurts like hell!
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#233343 - 09/02/10 10:13 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Rainman is experienced and is giving good advice. I would like to interject one statement from my experiences. Since his pond was said to be acidic, I am the one who suggested that he add the lime 1st. This has been reiterated by others. Blame me. In actuality, this small amount of lime will hardly change the ph. Most freshwater fish like a little higher ph that neutral. 8 to 9 is ideal for hsb. I wish I could keep mine in that range. Look at volume of pond vs. volume of lime; no way will that shock the fish. Just my 2 cents. Ya'll carry on. I just dont want the man to be scared to death. Just get the stuff in there and be done with it. smile
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#233345 - 09/02/10 10:45 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: burgermeister]
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I agree with you burger about the 25# of Hy Lime making little overall PH change. I also agree the PH should be raised. Five tons of dolomite Ag Lime would be great here!

I once added the lime first in a slightly acidic pond, once. To date it is the only pond I have treated to have some floaters in it afterward (about 50). I suspect, but don't know, that the fish that died where close to the lime or even directly hit when it was applied and they were shocked...it is the only explanation that made sense to me.
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#233363 - 09/03/10 03:13 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
In the test jugs there is a cloud of white in each, is this the Hy LIme? It has been 4 days since the test was done and the cloud remains, is this what will happen in the pond? Is it because I did not dissolve the Hy Lime and Alum before adding to test jugs?
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