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#232773 - 08/29/10 10:31 AM Alum and Lime to clear water
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
I have been reading as many posts as possible to answer my questions about clearing muddy water. I have also visited numerous websites and heres what I have ascertained.

Alum is the best way to clear water but it raises the ph dramatically the fastest. Lime will also have a quick reponse. Gypsum has a much slower effect and the results are shorter lived resulting in more applications.

The combination of Alum and lime seem to be the fastest but most dangerous relating to fish kill. Here is the link I am find most informative, http://www.ehow.com/way_5572842_amount-pond-water-treatment-system.html.

Although I have looked on the www.LSUAGCENTER.com site they are vague in there attempt to help. The closest I can get to me in Albany, La is Mississippi, pehaps ewest or someone near my location can give me some clarity.

30 pounds Alum per acre foot applied in a slurry sprayed over the surface, this should be buffered by 13 pounds of hydarted lime per acre foot. From my calcutations and pond size 1/8 arce. 30# alum / 8 = 3.75 pounds and 13# Hy Lime / 8 = 1.625 pounds.

My current ph is around 6 which IMO is below the needed 7 - 9.5 level.

My situation is that before adding the areator my ph level was a constant 9.5 with water clearity of about 2 ft. After adding the areator the clearity dropped to about 3 inches. After I added the fish 9 days ago the I checked the ph it is below 6.5 and the fish are inactive. I am at the junction where health of fishes intersects time to react.

If I do nothing low ph and clearity will surely have adverse effects and the possibilty of loosing to a fish kill! If I add the Alum and Lime I could loose the fish to ph shock! At this point there is only a $30.00 investment in cost of fish and in hindsight I should have checked ph and clearity before the purchase. We all know the value of hindsight, Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda, but I didn't b/c lack of knowledge.

I have built a platform from 4" pvc drain pipe and a 3' x 3' peice of FRP.I drilled some 2" holes in the pipe to release the trapped air and allow it to sink to the bottom. I am going to mount the areator to the platform in an attempt to lessen the amt of clay turbitity picked up from the bottom.

After that I plan to mix 1/2 the Alum in a slurry in a 55gal drum at the pond's edge, put in a sump pump with a garden hose attached and spray the surface of the pond. Ph level will be checked before and during this application. In another 55 gal drum I will mix 1/2 the Hy Lime. In a post by Bob Lusk on Application Methodology I will monitor the Alum and watch for clumps while checking ph levels every 20 minutes. Should the level rise above 7.5 I will begin the Hy Lime to buffer the Alum reaction to ph. I feel it would not hurt to have a rise from below 6.5 to 7.5 or 8.0.

Gurus, Pond Gawds and Water Wizards does all this sound do-able as a solution NOW or should I wait to see what will happen next? I am afraid the end result may be Death by Ignorance on my part, just by which means?

Suggestions, opinions and options very much needed and appreciated.

hd82
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#232779 - 08/29/10 12:43 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
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hd82, the alum actually lowers the ph, making the pond more acid. Since it is already pretty acid, just put the quicklime in 1st, then the alum. Use a little more than 1/2 lime per unit of alum and the pond will get to more neutral for a while. Long term, this fall add 2 or more tons of ag lime in and around the pond. Next spring, the ph and hardness will be better. Depending on the average depth and your depth of visibility, probably about #50 alum and #30 hydrated lime should do the trick. It is sort of like all or nothing with alum. If the 1st try doesnt do the trick, a little more may. Once the electrical charge is great enough that the particles stick together enough that they sink, then the pond will clear in a couple of days.
Dont be afraid of the alum, just always neutralize it with quicklime.
Good luck.
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#232782 - 08/29/10 01:28 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: burgermeister]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Bugermeister, thanks for your response. I have purchased the Hy Lime from a local feed store today but as for the Alum all I could find is crystal from a pool supply. I quess I should not be trying to do this on Sunday and surely not try to buy Alum from city feed and seed stores. I will contact a feed and seed in the country (outside the city) on monday as I am all nut sure they have a better understanding of what I am attempting to do.

I know from my readings here and on other websites that the Hy Lime will stop the drop in ph from the Alum, but what will raise it to the desirable 7.5 to 9.5 needed for a healthy pond?

In the event I can't find Alum in a powdered form will the crystals dissolve enough to be sprayed?

hd82
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#232785 - 08/29/10 01:52 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Dont know about crystal alum. Not familiar. Make sure you are getting aluminum sulphate, incorrectly referred to as alum. You should be able to get it in 10# bags. You may have to get larger quantities ordered. As I wrote, long term solution to lack of alkalinity/hardness thus lower ph is ag lime which will take several months to have the desired results, but will be help for 2 or 3 yrs. depending upon the amount of acid rain and runoff.


Edited by burgermeister (08/29/10 01:53 PM)
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#232786 - 08/29/10 02:08 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: burgermeister]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Burgerm what I did find in the feed store is Hy Yield Aluminum Sulfate in a 4 lb bag, http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/product/hi-yield-aluminum-sulphate-4-lb-bag. Will this work? From what I gathered from the ehow website all i need is 3.75lbs since 30lbs will treat 1 acre foot.

I'm not doubting your knowledge by any means since this is all new to me, 2 tons of Ag Lime in a 1/8 acre pond sounds like a lot.
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#232787 - 08/29/10 02:09 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
lassig Offline
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Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 883
Loc: Schuyler Co, IL
Originally Posted By: hd82

30 pounds Alum per acre foot applied in a slurry sprayed over the surface, this should be buffered by 13 pounds of hydarted lime per acre foot. From my calcutations and pond size 1/8 arce. 30# alum / 8 = 3.75 pounds and 13# Hy Lime / 8 = 1.625 pounds.


Looks like you are mixing a area measurement and a volume measurement. Your pond is 1/8 acre of surface area, correct? An acre foot is a volume measumnet of how much water is in your pond. So you shouldn't be dividing the amount you apply by the surface measure, enstead you should be using the volume measurement. Do you know how much acre feet of water your pond holds? What is the basic shape of the bottom? There are only estimators that do this for you.
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#232788 - 08/29/10 02:15 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: lassig]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
here is what I bought from the pool supply,

http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Pool-Chemicals/Water-Clarifiers/Alum-5-lbs/D/30100/P/1:100:1000:100040/I/14070

the label just say it contains aluminum sulfate
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#232789 - 08/29/10 02:25 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana






The deepest part of the pond is where the ladder spans across water which is about 7 feet constant and 9' when pond is copletely full. The rsst is between 4 and 6'

The calculated surface area on the goggle planimeter website is approx 5,500 sq ft.
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#232790 - 08/29/10 02:44 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
esshup Online   content
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So at the most I'd guesstimate 280,000 gallons of water when full, but possibly a little less going by the information given. (eyeballing the pond bottom from pics is iffy at best)
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#232791 - 08/29/10 02:54 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: esshup]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
From what I read acre foot is width times width times avg depth. I know from Google Planimeter the sq ft is approx 5,500 to 6,000. Just by est lets say the avg depth is 6', 6,000 times 6'= 36,000 cu ft. one acre ft from the website is 43,560 cu ft. 36,000 cu ft divided by 43,560 is .8264. I am correct? 30# alum per ac ft times .8264 = 24.79 lbs? And 13# Hy Lime times .8264 = 10.74 lbs

Sorry I don't have the math skills I need as I am a product of the La. Public school system, graduate Class of 1973!
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#232794 - 08/29/10 03:12 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
should be width times length times avg depth
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#232797 - 08/29/10 03:34 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
esshup Online   content
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But you are getting your measurements in feet/cubic feet.

1 cubic foot = 7.48051948 US gallons

43560 cubic feet is one acre foot of water, approximately 325851 U.S. gallons


Edited by esshup (08/29/10 03:36 PM)
Edit Reason: added acre foot info
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#232800 - 08/29/10 04:03 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: esshup]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
This from the ehow website:
Amount of Alum to Use in a Pond Water Treatment System
By Richard Hoyt, eHow Contributor
updated: October 26, 2009


Pond water dirtied by particles of suspended clay can cause numerous problems. Fish should be able to see for at least a foot. The fish population will decrease if the visibility is less than a foot for most of a year. There are several ways to combat turbid water. One of them is the addition of aluminum sulfate, alum, which turns particles of clay into lumps that settle to the bottom. But how much alum should you add to the water?
Check the Water
Ponds can be muddied by livestock, carp, bullheads or crayfish that feed on the bottom. Ponds muddied by heavy rains or flooding should settle out in about a week. To check the degree and persistence of the muddiness, collect a jar of water from the pond. Suspended clay silt that doesn't settle to the bottom of the jar within a week indicates a problem.

Amounts and Application

The amount of recommended alum in treating pond water varies slightly. The Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks says that alum is acidic. If the pond water is acidic (low pH) or is soft, first add about 20 pounds of hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide) to each acre-foot of water---the volume of water, 43,560 cubic feet, that will cover 1 acre to a depth of 1 foot. To determinate acre-feet, multiply the width of the pond in feet times the length times the average depth.

Dissolve the alum in water. Using small boats, quickly spray about 50 pounds of alum for each acre-foot of water. Do this on a calm day. Wind will cause waves to break up the mass of alum, preventing it from settling.

The Ohio State Department of Natural Recources says if the level of pH drops below 7, then add 50 pounds of hydrated lime for each surface acre. Ohio recommends 25 to 50 pounds of alum per acre-foot. An initial treatment 25 pounds per acre-foot should clear the water in a few hours.

If there is no change after one day, add another 25 pounds per foot acre. The Ohio resource managers say the best way to do this is with a sprayer in a small boat. In large ponds, pour the alum into the prop wash of the boat's outboard motor.

The Mississippi Department of Wildlife Fisheries and Parks tests four 1-gallon containers of pond water, adding 1 tbsp. of alum mixed with water to the first, 2 tbsp. to the second, 3 to the third and 4 to the fourth. The containers are checked 12 hours later. The container with clear water at using the smallest amount of alum determines the application for a particular pond. For each tbsp. used,
Mississippi adds 30 pounds of alum and 13 pounds of hydrated lime per acre-foot.

The Virginia Cooperative Extension service recommends 150 to 300 pounds of alum per acre. Low acidity rates of soft water should be countered by a ratio of one part alum to half part limestone. The chemicals should be sprayed or poured into the prop wash.


Read more: Best Way - Amount of Alum to Use in a Pond Water Treatment System | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5572842_amount-pond-water-treatment-system.html#ixzz0y1uhKeWd

This site says nothing about gallons, other sites do not either. If gallons is what I should be considering than I must rethink my plan. example is that it takes 1 tbs to clear one gallon of pond water than it stands to reason that for 36,000 cu ft times 7.48051948 = 269,298.70128 gallons times 1 tablespoons?

At this point I should just let the fish die and fill in the hole as I am truly out of my area and so confused I should cut my loses.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion with surface area and acre ft or cu ft or cu ft / gal, I think I got that right.

hd82
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#232813 - 08/29/10 06:41 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
burgermeister Offline
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Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
OK, I said #50 alum, the math says to add #30 , but is very vague.My guess is that you will end up adding the 50. It also says to add #20 of quicklime before doing the alum, just as I stated, due to fact that you already have acid water. The 2 tons ag lime is not overkill and will look like a small amount when applied. It is very heavy crushed and ground rock. I see a lot of pines, therefore you will always be battling acidity. The more ag lime you put down, the longer you can go without re=applying it. Nearly impossible to add too much. Note that I said the 2 tons goes IN and AROUND the watershed.......Just go for it. My pond is near McComb, so very similar with acid. I used 100# alum and #60 quicklime. for about 4 acre ft. 25 to 30 may do it for you. If your visibility is 6 to 8 inches measured with a white coffee cup.
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#232815 - 08/29/10 07:07 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: burgermeister]
esshup Online   content
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Like Burger says, visibility measured by a white coffee cup. You'd be amazed at the difference between what you presume to be the visibility vs. measured using a white object on a string that is marked for measurement.

You're getting the hang of it, acre foot means one acre a foot deep in water. Don't give up, once the turbidity is cleared, it's a lot easier to keep it cleared.

You may think lime is expensive, and it is when bought in 50# bags. Call the local co-op or look in the phone book for fertilizer or farm fertilizer. They can deliver it in bulk VERY cheaply.

When I bought this place the pH of the soil was so outta whack that I had to apply 1 ton per acre for 2 years in a row just to get it back in the normal range.
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#232829 - 08/29/10 08:11 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: esshup]
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#232887 - 08/30/10 01:45 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Offline
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hd82, yu don't need to be that precise when it comes to applying Alum (AlSO4)

Got back to the pool suppy place and get a free water sample anaysis too. I'd like to know your alkalynity and total hardness. It sounds like you could benefit greatly from a few tons of Ag lime.

By the way, Powdered or granular Alum will both dissolve in clear water at a rate of 1 pound Alum per gallon. If using pond water, make it 1 pound Alum per 2 gallons of water.

DO NOT mix the Alum and Hydrated lime together....it forms plaster!
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#232907 - 08/30/10 03:11 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
I called the feed and seed in Ponchatoula, La near my place in Albany. They have Hy Lime in 50# for $9.20 and Aluminum Sulafte in 50# for $33.40. Called the one in Hammond, La, 5 miles west of my place, Hy Lime 50# 8.50, had no idea what Alum was and did not have Aluminum Sulfate.

I bought 5 1 gallon clear plastic jugs for samples, I'll try to get up there tommorrow. When I go to Ponchatoula feed to get the Hy Lime and Al Sulfate I'll inquire about Ag Lime by the ton.

Guys I'm sorry I went off the deep end yesterday with the comment about letting the fish die and fill the hole. I am just getting a bit overwhelmed with wanting to get it right this time.

Rainman I asked about a rest kit when I purchased the Alum, I asked for ph, alkalanity, hardness, nitrite and nitrate. The guy told me I had to buy individual chemicals to test each, they did not have a kit to do it. They had ph and alkalinity kits but not with hardness,

At this time I'm looking on the net for a scale to measure grams as the link ewest said to look at. Not to belittle ewest or the link but I think I will stick with the ehow site that says to use one tbspn per gallon then calculate that to pounds. Just seems eadier without having to buy a gram scale.

Thanks Rainman
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#232920 - 08/30/10 05:36 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Offline
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hd82, That is very good pricing on the Alum, and a fair price on the lime.
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#232995 - 08/31/10 05:34 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Water tests and visibilty results are in. I am color blind so I decided to let those that aren't let me know their opinion.









The white coffee cup on a string was only visible to depth of 7" to 8". I did this three times in three different locations to be sure I got it right.

I also bought 5 clear plastic jugs for the Alum,I fill each jug with pond water and also a qt mayo jar to use as a control, jugs number I thru 5. #1- one tablespoon, #2 - two tbsp, #3- three tbsp, #4 - four tbsp, #5 - five tbsp. By the time I was finished adding the Alum #1 was clear about 2" from the top and #2 about 1/2". I will check when I get up for work, that will be at 1:30am and try to take some pics.

At this time please give me your opinions of what's going on with my water.

Thanks

hd82
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#232997 - 08/31/10 05:50 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
Rainman Offline
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looks like you have a lot of surface algae which isn't related to the clay turbidity.

If you go with the alum, always use half as much hydrated lime.

Aricultural lime can help to keep it clear for years to come.
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#233002 - 08/31/10 06:08 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
What about the hardness and other things on the test strip? Will the Alum and Hy Lime correct these?

I asked at the feed store about Ag Lime, they only sell in 50# bags, she did give me the name of Dykes that serves the Florida Parishes, I'll have to look them up to see who they are and if they can help. Any connections in South La you know that do Ag Lime by truck load or tons?

hd82
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Sometimes ponds are like women, a small one takes less to manage and more time for pleasure

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#233024 - 08/31/10 08:50 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: hd82]
burgermeister Offline
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The test looks a little different than one would expect. It shows absolutely no calcium carbonate, but a little alkalinity from something and the ph actually is surprisingly high. Looks pretty good. Still use 1/2 as much lime as alum. With some slow acting ag lime this fall, you should be in good shape.

Folks, the Florida parishes means former West Florida strip way back when. For those who are American history challenged.(that would be me) My memory was jogged only a few yrs. ago, when I asked about a tow boat company in La., named Florida Towing.
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#233029 - 08/31/10 08:58 PM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: burgermeister]
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hd82, the only use for HYDRATED lime here is to neutrilize the PH of the Alum. Hydrated lime on it's own would kill your fish pretty quickly from shock and it's calcium benefit is short lived. AG lime is the way to go for increasing alkalynity from calcium and overall water hardness.
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#233051 - 09/01/10 02:59 AM Re: Alum and Lime to clear water [Re: Rainman]
hd82 Offline


Registered: 07/18/10
Posts: 83
Loc: livingston parish louisiana
Thanks guys, the water cleared in jug #1 - one tbsp of Alum. I'll check with strip when I get back home later this morning just for my own knowledge of what the reaction was from adding the Alum. I'll also add 1/2 tbsp Hy Lime to the solution to see what happens to the ph.

Burger, the addition of the history is greatly appreciated as not many people know about parishes, its what everyone else calls counties. If memory hasn't failed me there are 64 parishes in La.

Until later thanks again.

hd82
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