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#225775 - 07/10/10 11:01 PM Brown/orange/red scum developing
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Well I got rid of the Eurasian Watermilfoil and it's ALL fallen out. I see a few floating stems that have turned black. I'm thrilled with my results. My fish are growing like crazy and the LMB aren't skinny any more and gaining weight and length rapidly. The bluegill population is still quite high and we're culling LMB consistantly, keeping accurate records, and aim to take around 200 lbs out of the 6 acre pond again this year.
Now the water which was normally crystal clear is olive green with 16" to 24" visibility measured with a disc. In the last 2 or 3 days I have noticed a scum forming that varies from brown to oranangish-red to dark red and seems to stay situated in bands. It's free floating and locates on the down wind side of the pond. It doesnt cover a lot of area (I estimate less than 5% of the pond). Is this a going to become a problem? From reading I've done on this site and a few others I'm thinking it might be planktonic algae.
Also, the bottom is black in shallow areas of the pond where the milfoil was severly matted and I see a fair amount of bubbles coming to the surface. Is this due to decomposition of the milfoil, and will it cause a reduction of O2 in the pond? The pond has been steadily getting better and if this is something I should address, I want to get on it now. Thanks in advance for your knowledge passed on to all!
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#225879 - 07/11/10 10:12 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19373
Loc: Miss.
Can you post a pic? Most likely a normal plankton progression - green to brown. In fertile water you can get red/orange blooms.

Do you have aeration ? As the stuff decays it will effect the DO. It is a question of how much. The plankton (green/brown) will add extra O2.


Edited by ewest (07/11/10 10:13 PM)
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#225885 - 07/11/10 10:22 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: ewest]
Bassman70 Offline
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Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
We had wind and rain today and it's gone again. As soon as it banks back up I'll post a pic. We don't have aeration now, but are seriously looking at systems. We're going to have to use a wind driven rig, probably a windmill.
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#225906 - 07/12/10 03:09 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
loretta Offline
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Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 561
Loc: MI
I had exactly what your describing last spring/summer. I took a sample into a pond store but it was hard to see once you take it out of the pond (even though I thought I tried to skim a bunch of it). They visually (no microscope) looked at it and said it's most likely pollen from my spruce trees. (huh?) I asked them about it being a red algae and they didn't think so. It saw it for a few weeks on and off last spring/summer and didn't experience it this year at all. I would see it looking through my window but when I went out to the pond it seemed barely visible from certain angles like the lighting had some effect on how well I could see it.

Try to scoop some up to look at it, feel it. I have a microscope now but no red scum, lol. I have a clear rain gauge that sometimes shows red in the rainwater, something different and I would like to know what that's about too. Probably some kind of acid rain, I keep meaning to call the county to ask.
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#226406 - 07/14/10 06:54 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: loretta]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Here are some pics of the scum...red and green today! Comments please...



Here's the pond we're working on. 6 acres, 16' deepest, averate 6'. 15 years old. Gazebo is 40' in diameter with mahogany deck and shake shingle roof (has electric and water).


Scum in a leg towards the road...very shallow.


More of the leg.


Close-up of the scum.


Edited by Bassman70 (07/14/10 06:57 PM)
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#226434 - 07/14/10 09:54 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Loc: Miss.
Very fertile water. Break up the stuff with water movement. What is you visibility ?
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#226576 - 07/15/10 05:27 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: ewest]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Visibility is 16-24" using a sechi disc, depending where you check. The deep end has the highest visibility. About 10 days ago we had a monster rain. Tons of runoff from the neighbor across the roads cornfield. I have a feeling that we got a BIG dose of nitrogen.
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#226581 - 07/15/10 05:43 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
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Loc: Miss.
More likely P as that is the main limiting factor in ponds.
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#226643 - 07/16/10 02:07 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: ewest]
The Pond Frog Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 914
Loc: NorCal
First, how did you get rid of the Eur Milfoil? If there are indeed bubbles coming out of dead material, that would mostly likely be CO2, and that material is taking out O2. Not a good thing. The milfoil was taking up the excessive nutrients, and when you killed it all off something new and exciting took it's place, and it ain't tree pollen. Real live red algae is normally marine algae, not freshwater. It's possible something is also killing off the algae and sending it through a dying color change, from green to red to brown. Nice photos. Would help if I knew what you used to kill the milfoil, and it would help you to get that dead material out.

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#226661 - 07/16/10 09:58 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: The Pond Frog]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19373
Loc: Miss.
Here is a freshwater red plankton bloom (most likely red euglena) from one of our ponds. Not unusual when it is very fertile or some big event that adds nutrients (plant kill or over fertilization). This one occurred after a partial plant kill and over fertilization.



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#226674 - 07/16/10 10:32 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: ewest]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Thanks for the info guys! @ Pond Frog, I got a complete kill using 2,4-D Amine applied at 2ppm. Around 75% of the pond was involved and approximately 50% was matted....we had a real messy salad bowl. It all fell out in around 3 weeks. It was practically impossible to fish. I've been raking out some of the dead material, but man, thats an exhausting job!
@ ewest...That's the exact way my pond looks...the floating red material moves to the downwind side with every shift in wind direction. I would guess I have less than 10% of the pond involved, and I'm keeping tabs on the water clarity daily. Will this become a problem that I will have to address?


Edited by Bassman70 (07/16/10 10:34 AM)
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#226699 - 07/16/10 11:24 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
The Pond Frog Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 914
Loc: NorCal
Don't see a lot of red algae out here, in fact, close to never. Just on the coast. Makes sense as the 2,4-D is all but gone by now. So when all of the dead milfoil sank, it opened up all of the water for algae bloom, looks to be two different kinds. It also reloaded the pond with even more nutrients. I might have treated 1/2 to 1/3, and as soon as it started browning rake it or push it to shore. Tomorrow I have a 100% coontail infestation job. No chemicals, just mow with Jenson Lake Mower and rake out. Going to mow down to 7 foot mark with extender. Customer had a bad fish die off when dead material sank and rest of live sucked up remaining dissolved O2, a mini crash. Goign to be about a 2 year process to fix that. I figure we get 1/2 acre tomorrow.

Now you have a few things to deal with. Provide some type of aeration to speed up decomposition of milfoil you cannot rake. Or don't want to. Helps the bacteria speed along as they need that O2. Bad part is you traded one situation for another, not as bad, and have a lot of nutrients that are not being handled the way you like, and that may or may not work itself out. In some of my ponds I've had algae all season this year, not normal. I do think it is a bit easier to treat algae than milfoil. Not uncommon to do a chemical treatment, open up the water and have a large algae bloom. you just don't know if that will go away or is there to stay.

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#226738 - 07/16/10 02:06 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: The Pond Frog]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19373
Loc: Miss.
I agree with PF assessment.

I would watch for now and move some water if you can. The water looks good as best I can tell from the whole pond pic. Would be good to get some of the dead material out. If your visibility stays 18 inches you should be ok.

Looks like several types of possible algae to me at least.
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#226793 - 07/16/10 09:06 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: ewest]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Many thanks to ewest and Pond Frog! I'll keep an eye on the pond and get the aeration installed. The advice you provide on this site has had an enormous impact on my personal pond, and others with the same problems have also learned from some of the best! Cheers!!
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#227076 - 07/19/10 09:04 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
Pima Offline


Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1
Loc: Clark County, OH
I have a very similar scum on my pond. I already have aeration from the bottom. Scum appears reddish with white bubbles. Completely disappears after hard rain but reappears next day. Have tried copper sulfate and that appears to work temporarily. I'm working feverishly to cut off nutrient supply at it's source. Am going to try the 2,4-D Amine and see if it is longer lasting for me.

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#231964 - 08/22/10 10:02 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Pima]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Here's an update on the pond and a couple more questions. The pond is an olive green color. The scum comes and goes still. Visibility in the deep end is up to 40"+ but the clarity in the north end (shallow, averages 4' deep) is still at 22" (this was the end with the worst infestation of milfoil). LMB healthy, eating, and growing at a wonderful rate and length to ratio has gone thru the roof! Bluegills also very healthy and had a great spawn of each species. I am seeing and catching 12" to 18" bass this year that were not there a year ago. Culling small LMB and removing crappie as we catch them. Now the bad part...I am seeing Eurasian Water Milfoil plants starting to re-establish, not a lot, but plants here and there with one patch about 20' X 20' in the shallow end. My question is twofold...the plankton bloom seems to be deteriorating....should I fertilize to get it going again? I know this will probably accelerate the milfoil growth, but I think the bloom is really important. Also, should I treat the milfoil with 2,4-D again now (it's been 2 1/2 months since the original treatment) or wait till spring to clean it up for next year. You guys and gals have been so helpful with the pond, and I appreciate it soooooo much! Thanks in advance for your replies.
Mark
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#231976 - 08/23/10 01:10 AM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24027
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
I'd like to add a question to his post above.

Is the 2,4-D a systemic poison like Renovate OTF, or is it like Diquat? Will 2,4-D kill the roots as well, or just burn off the tops leaving it ready to pop back up next year?

I used diquat last year and while it killed the milfoil, it's back again this year. I have smaller patches than Bassman70, so I'm going to hand pull the individual plants, then hit those areas with a systemic poison in a month. Hopefully that will be the end of it.
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#232017 - 08/23/10 03:22 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: esshup]
Bayoublaster Offline


Registered: 08/18/10
Posts: 7
Loc: S. FL, USA
Diquat is a contact herbicide and 2,4-D systemic. 2,4-D is actually a synthetic auxin.

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#232325 - 08/25/10 09:03 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bayoublaster]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
Here's an update on the pond and a couple more questions. The pond is an olive green color. The scum comes and goes still. Visibility in the deep end is up to 40"+ but the clarity in the north end (shallow, averages 4' deep) is still at 22" (this was the end with the worst infestation of milfoil). LMB healthy, eating, and growing at a wonderful rate and length to ratio has gone thru the roof! Bluegills also very healthy and had a great spawn of each species. I am seeing and catching 12" to 18" bass this year that were not there a year ago. Culling small LMB and removing crappie as we catch them. Now the bad part...I am seeing Eurasian Water Milfoil plants starting to re-establish, not a lot, but plants here and there with one patch about 20' X 20' in the shallow end. My question is twofold...the plankton bloom seems to be deteriorating....should I fertilize to get it going again? I know this will probably accelerate the milfoil growth, but I think the bloom is really important. Also, should I treat the milfoil with 2,4-D again now (it's been 2 1/2 months since the original treatment) or wait till spring to clean it up for next year. You guys and gals have been so helpful with the pond, and I appreciate it soooooo much! Thanks in advance for your replies.
Mark
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The look on your grandson's face
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#232633 - 08/27/10 05:34 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
Bassman70 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/30/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Indiana
bump up
COULD SOMEONE HELP ME PLEASE WITH THE ABOVE QUESTION>>>>THANKS!!
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The look on your grandson's face
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#232635 - 08/27/10 05:39 PM Re: Brown/orange/red scum developing [Re: Bassman70]
Rainman Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6935
Loc: St Louis, MO area
You may want to ask Bill Cody about thte types of colored algae's.

If you killed off millfoil in the shallows, those nutrients are now available for an algae bloom and a lack of mixing could easily explain it being in a relativly confined area.

I'm not sure, but given the lateness of the growing season, I wouldn't fertilize at this time of year.
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