Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations BG Stunting: North vs South

Ewest mentioned in another thread that he believed the problem of BG stunting was more often encountered up North than down South (I am once again reminded of that map of the Western Hemisphere with Argentina and Chile on top). So I wanted to give this topic it's own thread and see:

1) Who thinks BG stunting is more of a problem "up" North, and what evidence/anecdotes do you have?

2) Why should BG be more likely to stunt farther North?

WRT 1), I have no data; I am real interested to see what Bob Lusk or anyone with multi-latitude pond experience thinks.

As for 2), CW says that LMB usually take an additional year to grow big enough to spawn in Northern ponds as opposed to Southern waters. This delays the additional predator numbers needed to help prevent BG overpopulation. IIRC I first saw this on some Northern state's DNR pons website, explaining why they recommended a 5:1 BG to LMB ratio instead of the classic Homer Swingle 10:1 ratio. They said when the Swingle 10:1 ratio was tried up North, the result was often BG overpopulation instead of the balanced ponds that the 10:1 ratio usually gives down South.

It occurred to me that down South, the bass have a much longer season to be active and eat BG, but it seems like this would be offset by the additional number of times Southern BG can spawn in a year.

Any thoughts?

Theo, not sure I agree with the matching LMB feeding/BG spawning balancing act. I think the LMB feed heavily around my area a long time after the BG quit spawning. Also, a weeks cold front will kill some of the aquatic vegetation that forage depend on for cover. This opens them up to more predation. We often get a week of temps dropping into sub freezing and then a month of warm weather.

Of course, it all depends on how far up North and down South you draw the parameters. James Holt and I in North Central Texas have vastly different climates than Eric in Mississippi. Summer droughts can cause extreme drawdowns that make prey pretty vulnerable. I picked up a load of CNBG from Lusk a couple of weeks ago to replace my forage base in a one acre pond that has been stocked for 5 years.

To sum it up, I kinda think like Dave Willis. "I just don't know." We have too many variables. I would like for Lusk to chime in with a generality here.

Everybody: "We want Lusk! We want Lusk!"

Lusk, Lusk, Lusk, Lusk, Lusk, Lusk, Lusk, Lusk

While I do not agree with all of the findings and conclusions in this study the following is a good description of some of the reasons and sources of the position that BG tend to stunt more up north. I do think that LMB can control BG up north contrary to what this study implies. I think later studies prove they can. However see the recent PB articles (last 2 issues) about forage in Northern ponds by Dr. Mark Cornwell about other options than LMB-BG ponds.

Latitudinal Growth Effects on Predator-Prey
Interactions between Largemouth Bass
and Bluegills in Ponds
TIMOTHY MODDE AND CHARLES G. SEALET


The problem of imbalance in largemouth bass -bluegill populations in ponds has received considerable attention. Few fisheries management practices exhibit greater variation than fish stocking strategies for warmwater ponds .Wenget(1972) and Dillard and Novinger (1975) described the multitude of stocking approaches attempted by fisheries biologists. The earliest efforts were conducted at Auburn University by Swingle and Smith (1941). Their subsequent refinement of a largemouth bass-bluegill combination in the southeast was quickly adopted by the U.S. Soil Conservation Service and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and employed as the primary pond fish stocking recommendation throughout the United States (Regier 1962). Subsequent investigations however, indicated that stocking recommendations developed in the southeast were not as successful in establishing balanced populations at more northerly latitudes (Meehean 1952). The geographical problems associated
with the use of recommendations developed in the southeast and the surge of farm pond construction in the post-depression years led to a series of pond stocking studies. Research in Illinois (Bennett 1952) and Indiana (Krumholz
1952) indicated that bluegills had a strong tendency to overpopulate. Other studies in New York (Regier 1963) and Michigan (Ball and Tait 1952; Ball and Ford 1953) also concluded that bluegills tended to overpopulate and recommended stocking other prey species .Modde (1980) reviewed warmwater pond stocking recommendations in the United States and illustrated geographical differences in stocking policies. Most states in the midwestern and
southern latitudes recommended stocking only bluegills and, in some cases, redear sunfish with largemouth bass. However, only 5 of the 20 northern-most states in the same survey exclusively recommended stocking bluegills with largemouth bass in warmwater ponds. Alternative pond stocking recommendations included stocking golden shiners with largemouth bass or stocking largemouth bass only. The primary problem associated with largemouth bass-bluegill populations in northern states has been overpopulation of bluegills resulting from excessive survival of young fish (Bennett 1970). The most often cited explanations for excessive bluegill survival in northern ponds has
been: (1) the difference in spawning chronology between largemouth bass and bluegills (Bennett1944; Dillard and Novinger 1975), and (2) the abundance of aquatic macrophyte growth (Ball 1952; Regier 1963). Because bluegills spawn 1 year before largemouth bass in northern climates ,one bluegill year-class is free from predation by young-of-the-year largemouth bass when both species are stocked simultaneously. However, policies such as stocking fewer bluegills ,stocking bluegills 1 year after largemouth bass introduction and/or successive stockings of largemouth bass have not appeared to rectify the problem in northern states. Excessive aquatic macrophyte growth that increases the survival of smaller fishes is often controlled by fertilization in southern latitudes. However, fertilization in northern latitudes often results in excess nutrients that can contribute to winterkill.

just a quick self-indulgent question to interject here....somewhere i saw that my area [of NorCal... same latitude as Sacramento, but 1,600 feet higher in elevation] is considered in the range of "northern" growing areas, yet we rarely reach freezing at my altitude in the winter, and have blistering hot summers.......so I wonder, if I'm considering a LMB/lepomis stocking regimen, should I follow a more northerly or southerly strategy?

I think I would consider a Southern stocking strategy. The cartographers may have forgotten about your area.

DIED, I think the length of your growing season, particularly wrt pond water temps, would be the pertinent factor for comparison with the "Northern" vs "Southern" differences us Easterners have.

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Well, I'm giving it a shot, and intend to keep BG from stunting. Of course, I plan on using LMB and CC and HSB, so maybe that's cheating.

Eric, I think that's the same write-up I may have seen that got me started thinking about this a couple of years ago.

Well I am LMB/BG straight up. If you recall, I did things all kinds of backwards. I let the bass eat Bullhead and FH and even spawn before adding BG. It will be a couple more years before I know the outcome. So far, I am seeing a lot of baby BG. I would love to have YP in the future but I don't want to complicate things just yet.

Well, let's briefly look at what fish are available to crop off excess bluegill YOY's in regards to region.

"Northern" predators

1. Largemouth bass--excellent all purpose predator that is native to northern regions.

2. Hybrid striped bass--fair predator, may not thrive in far north because of long periods of cold temperature.

3. Yellow perch--the wild card. May actually be an excellent predator during winter months. Some studies are showing heavy wintertime predation by yellow perch on YOY bluegill.

4. Smallmouth bass--fair to good predator that will put some additional pressure on bluegill, but likely can't do the job on it's own.

5. Crappie--put a lot pressure on young bluegill, but have a tendency to stunt themselves. Tend to complicate the equation and usually need more intensive management.

6. Homo Sapiens--Much more effective at controlling larger adult fish. Often humans will skew bluegill populations towards smaller adult fish

"Southern" predators

1. Largemouth bass--excellent choice and puts pressure on bluegill year around in southern waters.

2. Hybrid striped bass--fair predator but may be inappropriate for some ponds if they have long periods of mid-eighties water temps.

3. Crappie--Will definitely eat bluegill. I can't really make an intelligent comment on southern crappies for bluegill control.

4. Homo Sapiens-- Moved to Thanks and Farewell

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There are two more possible predators. Channel catfish eat lots of small fish. Like HSB, walleye can be used as a put, grow, take predator.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
[qb] DIED, I think the length of your growing season, particularly wrt pond water temps, would be the pertinent factor for comparison with the "Northern" vs "Southern" differences us Easterners have.

Theo, we are a horticultural zone 8 or zone 9 at my elevation.....spring starts in late January - early Feb.....growing season goes to November in some years.....usu. October. Leanin towards southern strategy.....

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Stay on the topic you guys.
Tonight I went fishing in a close by 0.75acre pond for some male bluegill. Pond is around 44 yrs old. Pond is not fished a lot and they occassionally feed the fish bread about 3 times per week. Pond has aeration, very few weeds, no blue dye and about 6-8 old grass carp. In about one hour of fishing with a worm, bobber and No 8 long shank hook I caught 9 bluegill 7.5"-8.5" and six bass 8"-10". Small blue gill are scarse in this pond and bass population is dominated by bass smaller than 12". No bgill stunting in this northern pond.

Three weeks ago I fished in another local 0.75 acre pond for about 1 hr 15 minutes. Caught 8 bluegill 7.5" to 10.5" and 4 bass around 10" long. Small bluegill are also scarse in this pond because the owner keeps the bass population skewed toward smaller bass. LM bass above 16" are usually removed.

I know of other ponds in my area where smaller bass are common and bluegills are large and not stunted. Larger bluegills are almost always 1"-2" longer in total length in ponds where they are fed pellets. Ponds, in the north where bluegill are stunted, are usually missmanaged or not managed and bass are usually overharvested or have low numbers for one reason or another. A weedy pond is also likey to result in an overpopulation of small bluegills.

I'm not sure what goes on in southern ponds. I have heard bluegills there generally run small. Maybe that is due to higher initial stocking numbers. I know some southern pondmeisters from the south have big BG. I think any pond will have more fish problems if it is not managed and people are allowed to harvest fish indescriminately or without guidelines.

As far as staying on topic, Bill is right. This is a good enough topic to put in the "Common Pond Q & A Archives".

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