Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site How big is too big??

Well I may be 5 years or so away. I'm not in a big hurry just in the beginning stages of planing. But what I was wondering how big of a pond/lake is too big? I'm looking for land in Utah around 400-500 acres. I was thinking of building a lake around 50 acres. I would love to be able build something that fits into the proportion of the land. Also be able to ride jet skis on. Again I'm in the very beginning stages and just trying to get an idea. Am I thinking too big? The pond would be a retirement project and I would do most the work myself. Thanks for any input I'll be lurking the forums for a while trying to build my knowledge.

A friend has a "pond" that varies between 70 and 100+ acres depending on the rainfall.

It might be cheaper to buy property with a pond that size already on the property, but you'd need to figure in the pond management costs on top if it to get the way that you want it.

My buddy figures that the dam alone would cost over 1 million in today's dollars to build.

all depends on the lay of the land and how much dirt needs to be moved and who is doing the dirt moving.

30 acres is big enough for jet skiing, 50 acres is even better. Building your own lake during retirement sounds like a very fun rewarding project... I just wish my grandpa would think the same way...

I certainly no lake building expert but IMHO the cost of building the lake is gonna depend entirely upon the property itself. How large must the dam be, what type of soil is on the property, how much dirt must be excavated, etc.

Also you must ensure that you have the watershed to support such a lake.

Should you do it? HECK YEA!

To learn about lake/pond construction would purchase "Perfect Pond, Want One?" and download USDA Agriculture Handbook # 590 "Ponds - Planning, Design, Construction".

To get excited about ponds I would subscribe to Pond Boss magazine (available at the first link above).

The total cost of ownership should be considered at all times. Even if it is strictly for recreational use, the upkeep and overall maintenance to maintain adequate water quality could prove monumental. Of course, if resources (time, people, money) are unlimited -- the sky's the limit! I think our little two acre pond here in the yard is enough for us (I'm working with a family of four.)

I would say 90% of the dirt work will be done by myself or family. I plan to retire in about 20yrs so I'm really just trying to get the rough work done now. Then buy land in the next 3-5yrs. So that I can really work the land (clean, groom, plant trees, shrubs, prairie grasses) Like most you guys have mentioned land is important so I think the given time frame I should be able to find the right land for this project. The topo and landscape(soil type) are the top things followed by price per acre. I'm looking in about a 3 to 4 hr driving radius for the right place. I'm still learning the basics of pond building. I already have downloaded and printed the USDA handbook. I was looking at Perfect Pond book. Not sure if I should get it or not.

Thanks for all the future help i know i will be on this site a lot.

I'd beg, borrow, download, or buy every piece of pond building, pond management and habitat management literature I could get my hands on. Not just the physical dirt moving stuff, also the stuff on how to arrange the bottom contour and structure in the BOW (Body of Water) that would best benefit the fish that you might want to have in there.

Since you will have boat traffic, pay attention on any sections that target minimizing shore erosion due to wave action.

$$ spent now doing the learning and research will pay you back 1,000's of times over during your pond journey. I thought I had all the bases covered and I renovated my pond. 4 months after I finished I found this place and realized that I most likely could have spent 50% less money and had a better BOW to boot.

I'm guessing all the books in the purchase area would apply to a 50 acre pond. I would just have to multiply everything? Because I just ordered 5 books from here.

Before you make the purchase you want to hire professional consultants just to make sure you will be able to achieve your goals with your property. You can still be a do it yourselfer, just a much more informed and prepared one.

All above good ideas. Before spending the money to buy a several hundred acre parcel, I would certainly want to ensure it would hold water.

That is an awful lot of man-made private water -- especially new water. Being in Ewa, look across to Hospital Point, and try to envision how many 50-acre parcels you see.

I certainly don't ever want to dampen dreams. But, if you want that much private water, think about buying a large farm in a place like Northern Minnesota, Northern Wisconsin, Upper Michigan, in-land Maine, or in parts of Manitoba. There is a good chance you might be able to buy a lake of that size, or at least one with just a couple of owners. Excavation, a dam, drainage, and permitting for a lake of that size will not be inexpensive.

Let us know a little more about what your are planning.

Ken

Another thing you will need to consider is permitting for a dam that big. You may have to deal with state permits and Army Corps of Engineers Permits, if the dam is to be constructed in a draw that is listed as a linear wetland.

If you get the USDA NRCS involved in the design, they have various levels of approved designs that the local guys can do. If the dam empounds over a certain number of acre-feet of water, it will need to be designed and approved at a regional level.

States are generally concerned about potential impacts on downstream areas (either blocking water flow, or damage potential if the structure were to fail). Thus check to make sure a local government agency won't limit your plans.

I love your enthusiasm for doing the project yourself, but building a dam is not as easy as just piling up and packing some dirt to block a water flow. Even if you have a properly designed dam, with appropriate primary and secondary spillways, and plenty of freeboard, that is only half of the equation. Being able to read soils and what is buried beneath them, is more of an art than a science. Compaction of the dam and around the principle spillway are critical. Having an experienced and trustworthy contractor will be its weight in gold. If you want to help, you might be able to provide some sweat equity. I'd just caution you about building a dam this large as your first attempt.

Tim Pinney is a contractor from TX that often posts here. Look all his posts up and digest as much as you can. Then try to find a Tim Pinney in Utah (or invite him up).

Another consideration is that with that much surface area you need to protect the dam (and probably a large part of the shoreline) from erosion. We have 2, 25 acre lakes and a 30 mph wind creates 3 ft waves. Large rock or sharp angled rip rap is necessary.

Bill

Good ideas and comment so far. With a lake (dam) that size you need professional engineering help - trust me you don't want a failed dam. If it is to be in Utah then

Contact Mike Otto
mikeotto@ottosdirtservice.com
http://www.ottosdirtservice.com

Mike knows about dry dirt and dams


and Mike Mitchell -
Queen of the River Consultants from Longmont, Colorado his number is (303)651-2514

for ideas.

I know guys who have water holes that size. Keeping fish in balance, water quality, weeds whipped, guv permits, etc can become a full time job.

I used to think I wanted that but no longer. One guy I knew, before he sold the place, had to eliminate a coupla thousand bass one year. That takes the fun out of fishing.

All good ideas and thanks for all the info. Like I said I'm still just in the beginning phase of all of this. What I do know is I want a extra large pond. I would love to be able to ride jet skis. Also would love to focus on designing a pond around making some honey holes with maybe a few islands. I'm really just trying to get an idea of what stuff to get inline before I take this to a real serious level. I just haven't been able to find much info on larger ponds. A 50 acre pond is not set I can and am willing to adjust if necessary. I would also love a deep enough pond to avoid all winter kill. I know I have a lot to learn but time is still on my side.

I guess I'm just still too new to ask the questions I don't know to ask.

But thanks for all the comments and I'll be reading a lot on this forum.

Yep, keep reading and soon you'll know what question to ask, and where to find the answers to 90% of the other questions.

Keep dreaming! Many of us live vicariously through the dreams of others. My pond is only 1/2 acre. 50 would be a wonderland. Keep it going.

I agree with the others, but never fear, you may be able to make a long narrow pond that will need a small dam and have lots of length for jet ski. It is also a dream of mine to have a pond just like you imagine! Im thinking 15-30 acres or so. maybe bigger haha

Why does everyone emphasize on dam construction(size not importance)? I'm guessing it would be the easiest way to build that large of a pond. Can't I use a smaller dam and some excavation dug out to make the pond? I understand everyones concerns but its like everyone says to dream small. I understand a lot goes into pond construction. Anyone can dig a hole it may hold water but that doesn't mean fish will thrive and grow, it also doesn't mean that it will be able to shed water successfully during a severe storm.

I'm just curious as what size of land is proportional to a 50 acre lake. Also where can i find more info on evaporation rates? Also what depths do you need to keep fish alive during winter? How long should you prep the pond with minnows for predator fish? How do I know if fish will thrive in my area and in my pond? How do plants grow for cover?

I have been reading a few books and reading thru the archives and this is just a little info I still have questions about.

Thanks
Joel

Joel: Lots of good advice. Might be able to find property for sale that meets your desires. Old strip pit I know of sold a few years ago. It was around 640 acres of land with the lake and couple smaller bodies of water probably totaling 200 acres. I know of a couple guys who snuck in one night and caught a couple 10# bass in it. I think their asking price was around one million dollars - probably would have been a good investment; but didn't have a spare mil at the time (or at the present for that matter!).

Oh, just friggin' wonderful. It's bad enough that we have yet another spammer on board, but this one had to go and stroke JHAP's ego by saying what she said above. He's going to be insufferable now!

Thor,

Sure you'll be jetsking in 20 years?

Further proof that even spammers can have good taste.

This person realized that my 39.653 good posts contained such kernels of wisdom, such truths of the universe, such awareness and comprehension that they should be memorized and dare I say recorded for the ages, such that all of humanity can benefit by the enlightenment contained with these literary marvels.



Or she was drunk, it could go either way.

LOL!

You had one typo in your post, though, JHAP. It should now read a useful post total of 40.653 as this poor drunk gal found such very great value in your post! Take credit, my man! Take credit!

I don't need to be asked twice.

40.653 good posts. And that ain't bad.

I might not be the one jet skiing but the grand kids any other friends and family up for it will be able to. Does no one build a pond for generations to come??

Absolutely !! All lakes should be planned for at least 3 generations. That is not easy to do and requires experience in the process. Very few people can plan for and afford a 50 acre lake. I suggest you contact Mike Otto and tell him you are interested in planning for a 3 generation lake 50 acre lake.

Joel, I sense you're getting frustrated. We've gotten a little goofy with your thread and unfortunately hijacked it somewhat. I was partially responsible so I apologize for that.

I think everyone here builds a pond for future generations. From what information I have been able to obtain my pond was built some time in the 1940s so it has been around for over 60 years.

At the second Pond Boss conference Ewest spoke quite eloquently about the heritage aspect of a pond.




The link provided above to Agricultural Handbook 590 is very useful. If you haven't already, download this Handbook and read it carefully. On page 10 there is some information about water shed and pond depth requirements based upon geographic area of the US. These are some general guidelines.

The watershed and required depth will vary greatly depending upon exact geographic location. In looking at Publication 590, just in Utah alone it looks as though the watershed requirement could be anywhere from 8 to as many as 120 acres of watershed per acre foot of pond. So if I'm reading the map correctly and interpreting what it says correctly a 50 acre pond only 1 foot deep could require as little as 400 acres of watershed to as many as 6,000 acres of watershed - and that is for only a one foot deep 50 acre pond!

The problem is that it all depends upon annual rainfall, and evaporation rates, surrounding land contour and I'm sure a dozen other things that I don't know about.

The good thing about watershed is that you don't have to own all the watershed to take advantage of the water runoff.

True but that can be a bad thing as well if your neighbors are cattle/pig/chicken/llama/musk ox ranchers.

Ducks too, don't forget about them!

Or Canada Goose, the bane of my existence.

We have an Alpaca ranch near our place.

Fortunately it is on the other side of the hill and I have yet to see excrement roll contrary to the ground slope angle.

It may be cheaper to buy a property with a pond of this size is already on the property, but you need to talk to the pond management costs on top if it to get it as you wish.

I will give my experience with lakes and ponds. First I do it primarily for fishing and wildlife habitat and jet or any other skiing has never been a consideration. If that is the primary consideration then I suppose the bigger the better. But I have not found that to be true for fish and fishing.

A 7-15 acre fishing lake is hard to beat. In fact, I doubt it can be beat. I've found that a lake this size is ideal for fish management. You can catch and fix problems much easier and efficiently with this size. Personally, I find that the larger the water the larger the problem when it comes to fish management. I fertilize the water and feed the fish, and that is just not practical on a 50 acre lake. The cost of fertilizer and feed alone would cost a fortune. And would produce no better fishing. Fish per acre and fish quality would probably be less since it would be much more difficult to manage.

The other consideration is that the lay of the land and the available watershed will do more to determine the practical size of a lake than the wishes of the owner. Any government agency or general contractor will look at this first and will use those geographical features to determine the dam location, the water line, acreage, etc.

In one way it can be compared to a house. A family could more comfortably live in a 3,000 foot house on one acre than a 10,000 square foot house on 10 acres. The routine maintenance alone would eat you up and you'd spend a disproportionate amount of time on this rather than actually using and enjoying it.

A fifty acre lake on four hundred acres is a lofty goal and with liberal resources it could be built and maintained. But don't be surprised if you soon find yourself needing a lot of equipment and sheds and barns to keep it in, and either hiring a full time maintenance man (or two), or plan on spending every waking hour taking care of it.

At the end of the year you'd find yourself catching more fish on one 15 acre lake than one that's 50 acres. Skiiing would be altogether different.

Good luck with your prokect and I hope it goes well.