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Jan 10th, 2023
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent  Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Good luck. looks interesting.
Just do it...
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Joined: Jul 2010
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
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I just got my water test kits and was very surprised. Amonia, nitrate and nitrites were all nearly zero but the PH was about 8.8. I'm not quite sure what to use to lower the PH. Any suggestions?
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I think lime will but I have no idea what quantities would be needed.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
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No I need to do the opposite. Lime will make it worse (if that's possible). Is pool acid safe for fish? I read it's bad to keep changing PH and that it needs to be done slowly but I have no practical experience with PH. Does anyone have any formulas as to how much I can lower it and how fast?
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Joined: Jul 2010
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
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I tested my tap water and it's about 8.6. It might be the color of the algae making it look like 8.8 in the pool.
Your links are telling me the same thing. Don't mess with the PH unless you know what you are doing. It's possible my PH is even higher than 8.8 because when I did the low range test it didn't look quite as dark as the darkest color and it's still in the same place with the high range. I might just need an even higher range test kit if one exists. I should have figured living in death valley that the water would be really alkaline.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Joined: Jul 2010
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I been messing around with my tap water. I just added a teaspoon of vinegar (cider vinegar was all I had) to a gallon of water and it turned it about 6.8.
From what I read about PH I am going to keep that jug of water and test it ever few days and see if the water is buffered enough to turn the PH back or if it stays. From there I will have to determine the ratio of acidity from pool acid to cider vinegar and from teaspoons per gallon to gallons per 1000 and I will have a rough idea of what I am doing. I just drank some of the vinegar water and it tastes really good. A bit sweeter than plain tap water. I don't want to bring my water down to neutral but 8.2 or 8.5 might be a reasonable goal.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Check on the Tilapia. They might be more tolerant of higher pH than other fish. I'm sure I'm not the only one watching your results. 
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 147
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 147 |
They are tilapia. About the toughest fish you can raise in an aquaculture system. I would leave them be, and see what happens. Ph is tough to work with, even tougher when you have green water. I would see how they grow, and feed. Your ph is not ideal, but it is not going to be a deal breaker. You have bigger fish to fry.
Get that filtration squared away fast, Minimal feed right now. Your tilapia are feeding this very minute on that green water,and that greenwater is filtering waste. Once you start feeding them enough feed to make them grow, your water quality will suffer. So stick with minimal feed for a couple weeks, then gradually increase your ration.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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That's about what I been doing, I been feeding them very little hoping that they will eat the algae. My pumps didn't come and I will have to re order different ones but I got my 8000 GPH sump pump going and it's pouring a steady stream into the pool.
I also added a half a dozen feeder goldfish with the canary in a coal mine theory in mind figuring that they will be the first to die if ammonia or nitrogen levels get too high but I forgot about temperature. The pool is in the back yard in nearly full sun and it's going to be a lot hotter so that might also be too hot for goldfish there.
After I made my last post I was wondering if maybe the algae is going to buffer the PH back up too. Everything I am reading is saying don't mess with the PH unless I suspected it is killing fish. My plan is to add some baking soda to some of my tap water and see if it changes the PH darker or if it stays the same. I am also going to keep my eyes open for a more alkaline test kit but adding baking soda and testing the water will let me know if I need one.
Since my new pump wont be here for a week I'm going to run the biofilters off the big sump pump and wait and see if I need an adapter when they get here. I still wont be able to start on them till Thursday. I'm also going to hold off on the water change since my test kit says everything else but PH is good.
I added salt yesterday and I noticed my fish all went down to the bottom as soon as I put the salt in and they seem to stay down there a lot more. They also seem to swim a lot more in sync with each other. They still come by and beg for food as soon as they see anyone come to the pool.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Since my water is a little cloudy but it's not nitrates I'm thinking it might be better to keep adding nirtogen to the pond instead of feeding the fish. My problem isn't nitrogen at all according to my test kit. That makes me think it's just an excess of bad bacteria overfeedubg and that fertilizing the pond will help good bacteria and more algae get established and contribute to the pond clearing up.
What I did was put 1.5 tsp of Mircale grow for tomatoes in my little 30 gallon goldfish pond. If I don't see any negative signs I'm going to do it again daily for a day or two and then observe if the pond stays clear or gets cloudy. I am also not going to feed the fish during the beginning of is period and gradually increase the food supply till the water gets cloudy and see if they can take more food or less food by adding the fertilizer. I just want to see it's effects on algae growth in an older pond and if it makes the water clearer or cloudier. In the future I will try and get the right kind of nitrogen to add. I'm only using miracle gro for test purposes.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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I found this just now. I spent a pleasant career in fish farming, and usually, at least in the northern temperate climates, potassium is the limiting factor for algae growth in ponds, algae is the basis of the food chain for the rest of the pond environment. In tropical climates, the first limiting factor is usually nitrogen. So when I was working in the Niger Delta with the mangrove tidal ponds, we'd dump a sack of urea into the ponds on a weekly basis. Turned the pond bright green in a matter of hours. It was hot, too, which helped. Those were big ponds. There was a urea factory within 50 miles and it was subsidized. They use natural gas to make urea, and in Nigera, they flare the stuff off, they have so much.
Elsewhere, we used manure from chickens or ducks or pigs or all three. That mammalian / avian classic combo that is the basic incubator of all things nasty and viral. But I didn't know that then-:-)>.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
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Where do you get urea anymore?
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Try a local farm fertilizer store. I believe Urea is 50-0-0
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Lunker
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Lunker
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That's about what I been doing, I been feeding them very little hoping that they will eat the algae. My pumps didn't come and I will have to re order different ones but I got my 8000 GPH sump pump going and it's pouring a steady stream into the pool.
I also added a half a dozen feeder goldfish with the canary in a coal mine theory in mind figuring that they will be the first to die if ammonia or nitrogen levels get too high but I forgot about temperature. The pool is in the back yard in nearly full sun and it's going to be a lot hotter so that might also be too hot for goldfish there.
After I made my last post I was wondering if maybe the algae is going to buffer the PH back up too. Everything I am reading is saying don't mess with the PH unless I suspected it is killing fish. My plan is to add some baking soda to some of my tap water and see if it changes the PH darker or if it stays the same. I am also going to keep my eyes open for a more alkaline test kit but adding baking soda and testing the water will let me know if I need one.
Since my new pump wont be here for a week I'm going to run the biofilters off the big sump pump and wait and see if I need an adapter when they get here. I still wont be able to start on them till Thursday. I'm also going to hold off on the water change since my test kit says everything else but PH is good.
I added salt yesterday and I noticed my fish all went down to the bottom as soon as I put the salt in and they seem to stay down there a lot more. They also seem to swim a lot more in sync with each other. They still come by and beg for food as soon as they see anyone come to the pool.
surfsteve, I like your theory of "canaries in a coal mine with goldfish". Does it work(anybody else know either)??
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 125
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 125 |
I am wondering if the talapia will wind up eating the goldfish. I noticed a bigger one chasing one today. Also since I been running the pump my water is clearing up. I'm going to call the feed store and see if they have urea. Otherwise I will get some ammonium sulfate and put a teaspoon in a gallon of pond water and do an ammonia test to see where to go from there. I am running low in miracle grow and if anything it seems to be clearing the ponds up. I just went out and checked the pond and there is a half eaten goldfish. Also the water looks greener but the cloudiness is all gone so I'm going to feed them a little more. I think it's the pump circulating the water that is clearing it up. Can water get too much circulation? My sump pump is 1200 watts and pumps 8000 gallons an hour and I only have 2000 gallons in the pool. I hope I can afford my electric bill till my smaller 300 watt pump gets here. Looks like I can delay the water change but I am concerned about the goldfish. The miners are hungry and they are eating the canaries! I'm going to go feed those critters a little and see if we can strike a happy medium.
Last edited by surfsteve; 08/05/10 11:39 AM.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 125
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
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I didn't take any chances and did my 2/3 water change on both the talapia and my goldfish because my ammonia levels were high in the goldfish pond and choosing to error on the safe side in the big tank. I also read that PH isn't a problem with talapia and that they anything between 6 and 9 is good and they can survive to a ph of 10.
Here is the link
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ngXcn24S-IUJ:www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/education/ras/publications/species/283fsTilapia%2520life%2520history.pdf+ph+range+of+talapia&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj592TrfA0wsI9urfjJoo844IaS952fMXyf6ZqrbkjTzOxooB-9xO1HG3zxa83ZOJ995M85BUr9bztHFX1SMeVjvZJYKZrxrZW4qGQIyPi4CfbS6mhV7ABtJbgkfl1eG8R3EYYS&sig=AHIEtbSsoM37M2aNhVMS0EgQkma-Ew5R8w
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Keep in mind Steve you are at a disadvantage with higher PH and temperatures. That is, it won't take much for your unionized ammonia to reach a lethal level.
I still say you're making a big mistake rushing this without having your biofilter cycle first, and a good clarifier set up, but I'm wishing you the best.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/05/10 06:52 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Surfsteve,
Like Cecil said with respect to the ammonia. you will have ammonia problems. Frequent water changes prolong the time needed to "cycle" your BOW's. This is all moot now since you have fish swimming.
I don't know about the goldfish, but the tilapia will do fairly well with once cycled with occasional water changes and zero filtration IF you allow the algae to flourish....You will have a "green water" system. Your algae will become both food and bio-filtration. HEAVY aeration is required for this to keep the fish waste in suspension and degrading rapidly. Tilapia will generally top out at 3/4 pounds if allowed to spawn with this system.
There is NO question using a quality bio-filter and something to remove solid wastes will vastly increase water quality, stocking density, growth rates....everything.
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Joined: Jul 2010
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I finished my biofilters today. I took pictures while I was building them and they are uploading now. I also did another 2/3 water change. I hope I did these right and they work correctly. I used the Blue barrels because they were available locally and you guys convinced me the algae would be beneficial to them. First Picture I cut the hole in what was the bottom and is now the top of my biofilter.  Then I wired up some baskets I found at the dollar store  And my 3/4 in pipe like this. The whole gizmo goes in the drum.  Then I made my outspouts out of 2 inch pipe and cut the holes. Didn't glue them in yet  Then I unrolled my deer netting and wadded it up into the barrel.  I cut a hole in the part I removed and used it to hold down the net  and I ziptied the spout in place and plumbers gooped it  Then I added the bottom drain. A 2 inch male adapter threaded perfectly in place of one of the drum openings. I gooped it just for luck and reduced down to a 1-1/4 inch drain valve. These were set 3 high on blocks next to the pool  Here it is up and running. The 3000 GPH 1/6 HP sump pump is at the T in the pool but I want to relocate it at the deep end. I just ran out of glue and parts but I got it working!  Now if I can only get all these pictures to post!
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 125
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OP
Joined: Jul 2010
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I also plan to add a check valve. Right now if I shut off the pump it will drain the tanks through it. This will be great for flushing the top when I want to drain the sediments out of the bottom. But it will kill all the microbes in my filter if the pump goes out for more than a few hours. The check valve will keep the water from draining out the tanks if that happens and then of course I will have to add a bypass for the check valve if I want to drain the top portion of the filters.
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Hall of Fame 2015 Lunker
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Hey Steve,
As someone said earlier, you sure are a wild man.
One question that no one asked is: How many fish do you think you can culture in this system?
Look's impressive to the naked eye!
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 125
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 125 |
Probably a lot. The greewater article I read said that 7000 pounds could be grown in a 50 foot diameter pool yielding the same results as an acre of lake. That would compute to about 600 pounds for my size pool. Not sure if that's per year or per cycle. Probably the same thing. I want to raise big fish so I will probably stick with half that number if I get to that point.
I filled some gallon jugs of water coming out of the filter and water from the bypass and the water is a shade or 2 lighter coming out of the filter. At first I couldn't believe my eyes. I even did it twice and switched the jugs around and the water is coming out clean enough to notice from just one pass. Also the filters are caked with debris. I even noticed that last night. If I stir up the top of the filter the water will come out muddy for a few seconds as it exits the filter. I am really surprised at how much dirt these things sucked up. Very little or nothing came out when I opened the bottom settling valves to check them though.
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Looks good, this is going to be a fun project to follow.
Just do it...
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