Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking New Genetics

I have committed to memory, Bob Lusks 4 keys to pond/lake success. Habitat, Food Chain, Harvest and Genetics. We lease an established 40 acre lake that has addressed all of these issues thouroughly and just recently added 300 3 inch pure Florida strain LMB to the existing fish population. Since we are on an aggresive fish harvest program; of 25 lbs per acre or 1000 lbs per year. Actually, we are only accomplishing 300 lbs per year. But better than nothing. Our membership will not be able to tell the difference between a pure florida and a native-florida cross (I can't tell either). So, what are the recommendations on harvesting once you introduce pure florida's, so that you do not remove the fish you just bought?

My guess is that you just live with the removing of some of the pure Floridas, as the actual percentage will probably be small as compared to the overall harvest. And the harvesting of fish outweighs the costs of removing some of the pure Floridas that you just introduced.

You could take a bit more time when the fish are stocked and fin clip them. While the fins will grow back, if the fishermen are educated, they can tell if a fin has been clipped or not. I was going to suggest floy tags, but the fish are too small for that.

Texas has a "Share a lunker" program. Have you looked into that?

Fin clipping is the best method as Scott said... Sounds like the fish are already in the water though. If you add anymore, clip a fin. It is my opinion that stocking smaller >5" hatchery raised bass into an established pond lakes leads to few reaching adulthood. Maybe 1-5%...

While I agree that you may only get 5 to 10% survival rate from stocking yoy florida largemouth what we are after is genetics. So let's say 300 bass were stocked and 15 to 30 make it to adulthood. In that case we have introduced 15 to 30 pure strain Florida bass. That is significant when corrective stocking pure strain Floridas. I would have recommended stocking 2000 Florida bass fingerlings so that you would have gotten 100 to 200 adult fish to boost genetics.

One thing I have recommended to people, if you are worried about taking all bass that were stocked this year is to stick to your slot limit. Harvest, harvest, harvest over next two years. It will take that long for new Florida bass to get large enough to be in your slot limit. Then you can lay off your harvesting program for a year or two as those fish continue to grow. One caveat to this is that you harvest harvest harvest now. If you are after taking out 1000 pounds make sure you get as close to that as possible.

Steve, I suggest doing a budgt analysis. Assume 5% survivial on less than 4" and compare cost of stocking pure Florida of larger size >10" and assume 80-90%% survivial-compare. If close go adult route it has a quicker impact as well on genetics. Most times if available no brainer to go with larger fish. Also when stocking larger highly recommend tagging with generic cheap unnumbered floy tags for that cohort. This protects your investment.

Thanks for the answers. I did not know the estimated perecentage (5%-10%) of survivaliabiity, and while I'm sure this is a very educated guess by Chad and Greg, I was hoping for a larger 25% or so surviv eability. Oh well, don't blame me for hoping.

From purely a fiancial perspective the fingerlings are less than 1/2 the price of the adults if you figure on a 10% survive ability. But, if you figure time is money, then who knows.

It was too late to fin clip. Can you realistically fin clip 300 fingerlings? I think I like the idea of tagging 20-30 adult florida's.

One last question. With so many mixed up genetics on the market, how do you REALLY know what you are buying. For instance everybody is selling mozanbique tilapia, but very few (maybe nobody) really has pure mozanbique. Can somebody recommend a pure florida gene availability in Texas?

Steve, Todd Overton of Overton Fisheries has pure Florida certified LMB, as documented on the following link.

http://www.overtonfisheries.com/StockerFish/SportFish/LargemouthBass/tabid/66/Default.aspx

To the best of my knowledge, Overton Fisheries and Bob Waldrop of Tyler Fish farm are the only suppliers of certified Florida LMB in our area.

I have the letter from the test facility via Todd showing the test results from the genetic testing. That is one reason I got them all the way from TX. Others do the same thing.

Let's keep in mind that the practice of stocking pure florida genetics as fingerlings is the same practice implemented by the Texas state hatcheries on our public waters. The state stocking plan is working as far as I can tell.

Since the pure floridas are difficult to feed train and grow on pellets, they are difficult to acquire as juveniles and adults. Also I have never tried to clip the pelvic fin of a 3" florida bass, but would assume that would be very stressful on such a small fish and very cumbersome with hundreds of individuals. You are better off not to stress such a small fish.

We work with a local 160 acre lake that historically had been stocking pure florida fingerlings, and they submitted fish to the genetic lab and it was determined that their sample was something like 90%+ pure florida. This is evidence to suggest that a consistent effort can pay off, even with your harvest program. Having this documentation allowed us to make a deal with the lake owners to harvest fish for them and resell them as florida bass adults.

IMO, you are better off purchasing from a hatchery that has gone to the trouble to maintain a program of pure genetics and paid the money to document that program.

I got my Florida bass from Todd here in GA for the same reason.

I would never try to clip fins on a fingerling. The fish are stressed enough as it is. More handling, loss of slime and risk of infection you might end up with <2% breeders.

Greg is dead on here. Just way better bang for the buck getting larger already to breed fish and tagging them so they don't come out on selective harvest. I planted 8" FLA lmb, 15 to be exact in the Spring in a 1/8 acre drawdown fire pond. By Summer I had numerous 1-1 1/2" fish. This pond dries every year. I just have to get them out now.

I doubt with your plan you will have any noticable or visible difference for years. But stick with it, on a five year plan and eventually you will have a large % of FLA strain genes in your lake. I might also make a growout pond or brood pond for pure FLA. Keep the females in your brood pond and dump the males in your lake. Grow fingerlings to 6-8 inches, dump them in. That's fast tracking on a budget.

I have done supplemental LMB stocking using all sizes LMB ( under 14 inches). There is plenty of scientific proof via studies on the results. I will find the thread on habituation for you.

In some studies the failure to habituate LMB fingerlings when stocked into an existing fishery with adult predators resulted in 75% predation death in the first 24 hours using 2-3 inch fish.

Look at the links below for ideas and answers. A lot of the answer depends on your current situation including the existing fish population. Standard answer is less than 10 % will live to one year in an existing pond with adult LMB population. But it depends.


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22246&page=1

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post26019

Thanks Greg. I still have about 10k 3" pure floridas looking for a new home by the way. I am trying to feed-train some right now and having some luck in a vat.

I'll be making deals to move these fish.

Shipping kills me. Usually more than the fish themselves priority air. You ship to Norcal or truck delivery only? I might go for 200-300.

Here is a pic of some 8 inch Fla LMB that went into a 16 acre pond about 10 years ago. They had very good survival and have made a big difference (along with more food) in LMB size structure. The hatchery tried to talk me out of stocking pure Fla untill I told them what I was doing.

LMB

I think bang for the buck 8" are unbeatable. They are the least expensive per sized fish that can breed same season and most importantly avoid predation, in most cases. Big cc's will eat them up yum. What did you tell the hatchery anyway? I always like when someone tries to talk me out of what I want.

I love this forum. Where can I guy ask a question and have responses from some of the best and most experienced minds in the business. Thanks for sharing. I am like a sponge trying to learn all I can.

PF I told them I knew all about catchability and Fla LMB. That I was doing a test with blocking nets to both growout BG and to change LMB genetics as the pond had an existing population of northern LMB. Told them I wanted my own F-1 factory and some Flas.

This was about the time this hatchery and others were learning of the hard to catch Fla LMB via complaints from their clients. They were also just starting to develop F-1s from selected stock to replace Fla sales.

Grow em out Todd but I will talk up the fingerlings as well and let you know.

FYI. The landowner stocked 1200 3" fingerlings not the 300 I first reported. So we are further along that I expected. From a "value" prespective are the 8" the best value in an established lake? I think Pond Frog makes a good case at the 8" size, buy them before the price goes "way" up. What size is best value if you have time on your side?

It’s a risk vs. reward situation. Value depends on the situation.

It’s a numbers game and you have to weigh the risk. For example if you want 100 Fla LMB reproducing you have options - small 2-3 inch , med - 5-6 inch and large 8-12 inch of getting there with different levels of risk. If you put 100 12 inch LMB you will get probably 95 spawners the next spring at a higher $ cost - little to no risk. If you count on 95% predation loss and use 2000 2-3 inch LMB you will have saved a few $ but at a much higher risk. Not talking about predation risk as that is figured in the stocking #. What happens to the plan/fishery if you habituate them well and they head for the weeds and hide only coming out to eat - result 30% survival and 600 spawning LMB next spring ? You can use a cage or blocking net and small fish but it takes time and a net or cage and carries its own type of risk.

I have done it just about every way and it’s still a guess. For my time and money large stockers have the least uncertainty and risk but are not risk free.