Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Catfish and what?

In Wisconsin, you're going to find at most 3 species of fish available that are hatchery raised. GSH, FHM and perhaps goldfish... Other than that, any other fish you see for sale, called shiners or chubs are going to be wild caught. Even farm bought fish can be contaminated with other species. Hopefully someone else from Wisconsin can give you a recommendation to a trusted supplier that has a history of not providing contaminated fish. Attempting the type of pond you are, hand sorting and knowing how to ID species is important. If you buy 10 pounds of FHM and there are three BG mixed in, that could make a real mess of what you are trying to do...

There can be a number of other species wild caught and marketed as chubs or shiners. Usually those species are emerald shiners, spottail shiners, common shiners or lake chubs. These species are caught by commercial fisherman, usually from larger lakes and rivers and then sold to bait dealers. Keep in mind, these fish are not closely inspected for other species contamination... So even if you buy fish from these places, the risk of contamination is there, just like if you caught the fish yourself. When commercial fisherman are running their 100+ foot plus long nets and bring in a couple thousand 2-5" fish, they usually are mostly their target species. Nothing says there won't be a few small common carp, sticklebacks, sunfish or bullheads mixed in.

Stocking a few contaminants into a bass/bluegill pond is less risk as bass are voracious and will often control them before they get established. With the type pond you're working on, the control of an accidental introduction will be less likely. Take a look at http://www.wiscfish.org/fishid/. It's excellent and should help you feel more confident in IDing fish yourself. You can always post suspect fish photos on here as well and let us help you ID them.

I am afraid to ask this question but her goes:

I am looking at buying fish from the Gallon Hatchery, recommended by several people in the fishing area including DNR and here on Pond Boss.

If I am stocking only FH and GSH, should I inspect every minnow before placing them in the pond?

Will I be able to confidently tell the difference?

Should they go into the forage ponds first to allow them to grow out a bit before heading to the main pond? Are they easier to distinguish when larger and older?

This sounds like it may be the most difficult part of the whole fish process.

BUT, if that is what is needed to ensure the right minnows and remove the wrong ones, then that is what I will need to do.

No need to be afraid of asking anything. Better to ask and know then go at it blindly. My recommendation is post a new post asking for people's experience with Gallon Hatchery or if they prefer to PM you if they have any experience. That way the most people see the post and you can get the best responses. There are lots of trustworthy hatcheries who will provide you quality fish and only the species fish you want. Gallon may be in that catagory. Ask and find out.

The good thing is this... There are only a few species that will cause issues. Most others if stocked will not reproduce or thrive and therefore not cause issues. Telling the difference between FHM/GSH and BG, carp and bullheads is pretty easy, even for a beginner. So I wouldn't worry too much. By utilizing the forage ponds, you can minimize your risks, whether buying your fish or collecting them. Stock the forage pond first, let them go for a year and see how your forage ponds look.

Kurt, I am trying to help you out as best as I can and make this process less intimidating. I really want to help you realize your goals but I also understand your concerns and the strict laws of Wisconsin. You're going about everything correctly by speaking with the Wisconsin DNR and making sure the improper fish don't end up in your pond. Here's a little guide using the http://www.wiscfish.org/fishid/ website and the photography of John Lyons. As I stated in other threads, this ID guide is excellent. The only downside is there are no habitat descriptions or range maps included with the photos.

Adult golden shiner, either a female or non spawning male:

Adult male golden shiner in spawning colors:

Immature golden shiner:


Adult fathead minnow, either a female or male in non spawning condition/coloration:

Adult male fathead minnow in spawning coloration:


OK, so we have now covered the two most commonly stocked forage fish in ponds that are commonly produced by hatcheries. Now let's look at other species which can be bought as baitfish which are most commonly obtained via commercial fisherman.

Spottail shiner, immature fish on top, mature fish on bottom:

Emerald shiner adult:

Emerald shiner adult, top view. Now you know why they are called emerald shiners:

Immature emerald shiner:

Common shiner adult male non breeding color or female:

Common shiner breding male coloration and form:

Immature common shiner:

Lake chub mature adult:

Immature lake chub:


Now let's take a look at species that are often desirable in ponds depending on the goals for that pond. These species are either not available commercially or very rarely found commercially. This usually means they must be collected from wild sources.

Spotfin shiner mature adult:

Spotfin shiner male in breeding coloration and form:

Immature spotfin shiner:

Bluntnose minnow, adult male in breeding color and form on top, adult female full of eggs on bottom:

Immature bluntnose minnow:

Note, the above species is closely related to the fathead minnow and it can be seen in how similar they look.
Lake chubsucker, either a non breeding male or female:

Lake chubsucker male in spawning color and form:

Immature lake chubsucker:


Creek chubs can be confused with bluntnose and fathead minnows and lake chubs, especially when they are young.

Creek chub, adult male on the bottom in breeding color and form and adult female on top:

Immature creek chub:


Species that may show up while collecting from wild sources or purchasing from wild collected sources that you probably or definitely don't want in your pond...

Immature common carp:

Immature goldfish:

Immature gizzard shad:

Immature alewife:

Immature bluegill:

Immature brown bullhead(yellow and black bullheads look very similar):

White sucker adult:

Immature white sucker:



A lot of the fish do look very similar. To a beginner is can be very overwhelming. I've been studying fish for 20 plus years and I have to look at a field guide every so often to be sure on a species. However, most of the fish that you absolutely don't want in your ponds look very different than ones you would or ones that won't cause problems but have no benefit being in a pond. In the end, only do something if you feel comfortable and are certain about it. If you need help, just ask I will try my best to help you along the way...

Wow...Kurt you struck a goldmine! Well done Travis. That's a forage ID reference guide useful for everyone. Now, just note their preferred habitat, spawning habits, maximize size and geographical range and you've just written a nice little handbook!

That is just great work Travis. Definitely will be using this again.

Note: Adult male fathead minnow also known as "Shaft". Oh yeah.

Kurt, good question. Yes, you probably should try to assure that you get only the right species in the pond. However, fish from most reputable hatcheries shouldn't be a problem.

I don't have the capability to go through thousands of fish and be 100% sure of everything. Not many people do. So, I don't sweat it.

I have seen it posted before and have said myself but one more time will not hurt anyone. You all are unbelievably helpful. The time and energy you have put in to help myself and so many others is beyond comprehension. Where could anyone go to gather and receive info like this????

thanks to all.

Not wisconsin but far north illinois is keystone hatchery. I've never used them, and wasn't present for this conversation, so this is officially hearsay:

They did a stock job at my friend chris' uncle's 20+acre lake (kind of like my brother's sister's cousin's dogwalker's college roomate's great aunt twice removed...sorry bout that) and did an extraordinary job, I don't know if they guaranteed every fish, but they apparently were very thorough, trustoworthy, informative and helpful. I was told that i could trust them if i needed forage stocked. In this lake in the NW chicago burbs was for largemouth, golden shiners and a couple of tiger muskie over the course of 5 years or so.

IMO the smaller a water body is the more important it becomes to get the correct species stocked. Contamination becomes more noticable and a larger influence upon the whole fish community the smaller a water body is. Species compositon of the fishery also plays a role in this contamination topic.

Kurt - well stated. Spread the word - we need to grow our family, spread the gospel and help others make their dreams come true.

Travis, that is AWESOME post! I suggest that post be archived for future use. Great work - thanks for taking the time to compile that info!

Good job CJBS on the fish plates.
Now that this concept has been brought up, lets looks at it in a little more detail. When collecting from the wild, IMO CJ has provided some good basic information. NOTE TO READERS: IN THIS POST WE ARE TALKING ONLY ABOUT WISCONSIN FISH and importantly about non-hatchery fish that would first be placed into separate, segregated or isolated forage fish ponds. Not directly into ponds with the main fish community. The offspring would then be moved to the larger fishery pond.

Fish species in each state are different. A case by case situation applies. Some fish species only occur in small areas of a state or region. In this case (kurt) the forage pond is separate, they are SMALL and easily renovated if problems occur. If one wants to take the chance after getting the proper approval, and try something like this, the suggestions here are how to do it responsibly with reduced risk.

To repeat and review from above, practically all the shiner species, minnows and chubs and dace that you will find in the WI creeks / ditches will IMO cause no or little harm in your pond for overpopulation or growing to nuisance adult sizes. One of the commonly occurring ones, the creek chubs can get big 8-12" long in a pond, but they will not reproduce and not cause over population problems. They will compete with other fish for their food (diet is insects, invertebrates and small items of clams, snail crayfish and fish). You can occasionally catch a mistakenly introduced chub in a pond using small hooks.

Only a few of the above WI fish (fatheads, bluntnose minnow, bullhead minnow, brassy minnow, spotfin & golden shiners) are desirable species and will breed in the pond. Brassy & bullhead minnows are fairly rare in So. WI, however adding these rare ones can be beneficial since they can spawn in good pond habitat. So if you can collect a few of those mentioned in this paragraph they will serve as brood stock if predators are absent. They likely will not live long if predators are present.

The other several shiner species that can occur in the collections will likely live, but not spawn in the pond. You should be so lucky to find an adult 2”-4” shiner that will spawn in your pond. Basically very few shiner species are pond spawners. Of the various, non-preferred shiner species, such as common shiners (up to 6-7"), if added my mistake will not grow big enough and live long enough to cause real long term population problems. Their main risk of introduction would be introducing a disease organism or other living contaminants added with the transfer water. It is a very good idea to “cleanse or debug” fish of external parasites with some sort of treatment bath before adding them to the forage fish pond. Treatment baths have been previously discussed on this forum. ONe of the worst cases of fish ich that I've ever seen was at a fish farm.

The main “bad 3” fish in the ditch/creek you want to or should strongly AVOID are common carp, bullhead-catfish-madtom types, sunfish-bluegill types. All can easily reproduce in a pond. I highly doubt you will catch a goldfish (colored or natural) in your creek /ditch. Goldfish will pond spawn and are superficially similar to carp and are recognizable to most experienced anglers. The previous “bad 3” (carp, bullheads, sunfishes) are fairly easily recognizable due to each of their prominent or distinctive features.

The fourth “bad” one to avoid are individuals in the sucker family. They will not “pond spawn” so they are not as bad as the “bad 3” noted above. However, suckers and redhorses at high numbers in a pond could be a problem as large individuals (18”-30” depending on species) can cause turbidity due to their bottom feeding habits. Another main concern with suckers is their reputation for eating fish eggs. IMO the majority of egg predation is of them eating unguarded fish eggs laid by the scatter spawners (non-nesting spawners). Nest spawners typically defend the nest and eggs from all sizes of intruders. Sunfish will often bump and threaten intruders as large as human swimmers. Unguarded fish eggs are very vulnerable to being eaten by many types of predators not just suckers.

Small suckers are recognizable by the sucker mouth located at the end and bottom of the snout. Discard fish with obvious sucker mouths.

Bluntnose, bullhead and brassy minnows with their slightly under positioned mouth, to the untrained, will appear as to be small suckers. So IMO you should spend time carefully recognizing the difference between the minnows and suckers. This problem of confusion is primarily only a problem when the suckers are young/small (May-July). When collecting in southern WI during other months of Aug-April, suckers are usually larger than 3.2” long.

I have strongly suggested everyone learn to use Wisc Fish before. From CJ's post (and previous ones I made)about the Wisc Fish data base you can see why. Not only does it have pics of lots of fish it has hybrids and an easy search feature by trait. It also has narrative on the traits. You can search by fish type etc. Go take a look.

http://www.wiscfish.org/fishid/


Body Forms , Color patterns, Fins, General Anatomy, Mouth & Scales are some.



It also has a very good glossary with definitions

Awesome post Bill, and I agree, Eric, that Wisconsin fish I'd site certainly seems to be the best, overall, out there.

Bill, Eric and Travis need to team up and create a forage book. This is great stuff, needs to be recorded in a resource guide for all pond managers to reference.

Time to re-visit some older posts. The ponds are nearing completion. We have had to go back and fix several technical mistakes, minor ones like dam in wrong place, wrong height, etc...nothing to worry about!?!

The second pond, is .25 to .33 acres (average depth 6-8 ft, deepest 12 ft) and after all the great input designated for RB and CC. I will aerate and feed, stocking somewhere around 25-50 of each with the intention of fishing them out each year.
After re-reading the May/June issue of Pond Boss, I really, really like the idea of male only BG. It seems 25-50 of them would fit nicely into the RB and CC pond. Fatheads and Blunt-nose will be the forage base along with feeding.

opinions and suggestions are needed

Questions:
1. Sound feasible?
2. Stocking ratios acceptable?

anything else to consider and most importantly, where do I find male only BG in Wisconsin?

thanks

Sounds like a nice project you have going. I'm not too far from you--Baraboo.
Just wanted to let you know, I had good luck with Gollons for fish. Not sure how you will get all male BG. If it were me (and I'm a novice at this also) I would go with HBG. That way you will have a high percentage of Males. The little they do spawn I would think the CC would take care of.
I was looking into HSB some also. I know for a fact that the DNR stocks them in Lake Columbia. Its a warm water lake used for the power plant in Portage. still not sure if we could get them legally or if they would survive the cold. I know Lake Columbia had a die off when the temps dropped, but it may be more from the sudden temp change than just the cold.
I have multiple pond projects going on, but mine are all older ponds that I'm trying to restore. maybe we'll have to meet up sometime or keep each other in mind for exchanging fish...
I have one smaller pond (.8 acre) that I'm going to start with a lot of Fatheads. Then stock HBG and CC (HSB if I can) I'd like to find White CC for this if I can.
I have another 2 acre pond that I want to do Perch and walleye. And my main pond is about 5 acres that is mostly BG and LMB, but I put some cc and perch in this year also. The large pond also has random Crappie and Northern Pike in it. Kind of a mess, but the fish are healthy.
One thing to keep in mind for this area is to watch for snails and black spot parasite on your fish. This parasite is getting quite prevalent here, and about the only way to combat it is to keep out snails.

Here is the email from the DNR about HSB

They did stock them here is first email:

"Hybrid Stripers are a cross between a white bass and the annadromous striped bass found along the east coast. DNR has stocked them in Lake Columbia which is a cooling pond at the Alliant Columbia Generating Plant near Portage. They have a need for temperatures above 58 degrees would not survive the winter in in your pond. I believe that the stock we use was purchased from the State of South Carolina." - Donald Bush

Here is second email:
"Hi Kurt
Here is the definitive answer on the hybrid stripers from Bill Horns. Bill was recently part of the staff that wrote NR 40. Since the hybrid stripers qualify as non-native, you will not be able to stock them in an "open" pond.

Don Bush
Regional Fisheries Team Leader - East Fisheries Team
DNR Service Center
2514 Morse St.,
Janesville, WI 53534
e-mail Donald.Bush@Wisconsin.gov
608-743-4823"

I would like to stay away from the HBG just because of the possiblity of them moving to the main pond and back spawning. The land slopes downward with the forage pond sitting at the top, then the RB and CC pond followed by the main pond. There will be overflow pipes running from pond to pond so I am concerned about BG ending up in the main pond.

I may have to try and raise them offsite and seperate them when they reach maturity which may be a process beyond my abilities.

I do not have the ponds up and running yet so I am just dreaming. I hope to start filling Sept 1.

I don't know if it's legal in Wi., but if you can find any BG bedding in the public lakes, you can catch them easily, and sexing them is just as easy.

Is he saying HSB have a need for temps above 58 degrees because they would die below 58? If so, he needs to read up on his HSB knowledge... I surely hope he isn't the one making fisheries decisions for the state if he thinks HSB die at 58 degrees! Why can white bass be found into Canada and striped bass can be found into Canada, but their hybrid would all of a sudden so cold insensitive? Incredible!

I have wondered the same thing for years. That was always what people around here have said and thats why they were used in the warm water at the power plant. Makes me want to get a few and try just for the heck of it.
As for bringing in fish that are caught in another lake, its not allowed anymore in Wisconsin. It used to be legal until the VHS scare a couple years ago. Now they are very strict about things like this. You cant even use minnows somewhere for fishing and them use them in another body of water. For a while they would fine you if you didnt dispose of bait before you leave the lake you were fishing. Kinda crazy, but thats the WDNR. Dont even get me started on the whole CWD Deer thing.