Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Old Pond needs fixing

The pond is an old orchard/cattle farm pond. It is in a residential area, but with only 40% of the banks with houses on which have typical yard grass to the banks. The rest of the pond has bushes, shrubs, cat tails etc. to the point that you can not fish from these banks, very thick. The pond is 2.5 acre's in a kidney shape and guessing it is some where to 12' to 14' deep. Beleive the bottom is pretty much a bowl. Water is semi clear I suppose, I would say to clear if anything, can see couple feet into water with out problem.

All we have is LMB and Talapia, can see some small fingerlings at times, very small, no idea what kind.

In the spring, like now, we only catch LMB in the very small range, as in around 8", all the same. Late summer, they will be 12", all the same. Budy and I caught 27 of them last summer in 2 hours from the bank, all the same, and skinny.

Seems to be a pattern of the fish dieing off in winter, becuase sequence starts over every year. Neighbor has lived beside it for over 12 years, was one of the first houses, seen 8 years ago, 12 lb bass taken out.

We are the only ones fishing, replacing everything.

What I can get from your site: Start taking the bass out! At least till we can see weight start rising. (Have Chart in hand)

Florida Fish Commision: Start taking the bass out! At least till we can see weight start rising. AND, find pond with brim, catch over 4" and release in pond. (no place to buy that large so small bass cant eat)

Killing off the pond is not an option, nor do we want to, do understand could be best option to balance pond.

Please Help!!

and watch out for gators. they seem to be eating everyone in florida.

We have them too, normally one at a time, but the spring one we had one 8', but he seemed to move on, back to our normal 5'.

I'm wondering, did I put to much information, nobody seems to have any advice?

Winston, maybe things are just a little slow on the forum right now.

It sounds like you are on the right track to remove LMB. You may need to remove as many as 250-300 of them.

It also sounds like you may not have enough forage or bait fish, so the suggestion to get some larger bluegill is sound, I think.

Maybe you could look at some other options for forage like Golden Shiners.

You may want to consider putting in some structure to help forage fish survive a little longer, at least until then can spawn.

Do your tilapia survive year round? If they do, you shouldn't NEED to add anything but bluegill, but diversity is almost always good.

I have been a fisherman all my life, but this is the first attempt at working with a pond, I also gave the forum to my neighbor too who lives at the other end of pond and I really just met this week. So I am hoping he is reading this also, but, 250-300 LMB need to be removed!!!! I guess its not knowing the actual habitats that I have fished in all my life, I would not even think there was half that many in the pond let alone remove that many!

Yes, I am pretty sure they live year round, winter months, (if you call them that here) they are sucking on the surfice.

Winston, 250-300 could be a little much, but I was basing that on 100 fish per acre. I would think at least 50 fish per acre.

If all the fish you are catching are the same size, it would seem to be a classic case of bass stunting and overpopulating.

Depending on your goals for the pond, it may not be a bad thing; for instance, if you like to catch a ton of bass each hour vs. catching less but having a chance at bigger fish.

This may get long, I did a little investigation last night, we actually have 3 ponds in our development.
The first pond is about the same size as ours, but shallow, was built as drainage with development. If you throw bread in, you have thousands of fingerlings, then the talapia and catfish come. No matter where you go, one spec of bread will bring thousands of fingerlings.

Second pond, only about an acre, was like our pond, old, throw bread in it, takes time, but fish around 1" to 2" will come, can see fingerlings in weeds, but eventually they will start to show up after 5 mins.

Our Pond, throw bread in, nothing, nada, it will sink to the bottom before anything will get it. Big talapia swimming and sucking on the surface, but nothing eating bread.

Its like we have 3 worlds, which of course i am worried about one. One pond, no fish eating fish, middle pond, perfect, our pond, to many fish eating fish.

My investigation last night was to see if any of the other ponds had bluegill I could catch and transport. All it got me was a place at the first pond to put the bass instead of the bank.

I caught 5 bass last night, the 6 inch ones look ok, the 8" one did not look good, the 13" one, they look cartoonish, this big head. I saw in one post about the body should be at least as wide as gill plates, not even close. I have not got a scale yet to be able to tell you what the weight is, ill try and do that soon.

Winston :

You are describing a typical LMB crowded pond. Often this happens with LMB and BG but can be with LMB and tilapia or any combination of forage fish. See the link below and read pgs 10-12 on Management. One is with seine data the other is with catch data. Your case sounds severe so you may need to take more fish out. In conjunction with doing so can you get fingerling BG and tilapia out of the BG/tilapia crowded pond to put in yours. I would also recommend you look at the entire pond mgt book for basic info.


http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf

If you cant tell, I am excited to try and fix this thing, my 6 year son asks every night to go fishing, well he has taken to calling every fish now, "another starving bass" its actually kinda funny to hear him, but I want him to get a hold of a couple pound one and hear him turn to shrieks!

Winston,

You may have an interesting situation that hasn't been explored yet in this thread.

Let me ask, do the Tilapia survive year around? How long have they been in the pond?

ML earlier in the thread he said he thinks they do (apparently no winter in his part of Fla.). Another question is which type of tilapia. Looked it up --south of Tampa.

I guess in need to get a net, the problem is, in the pond with all the fingerlings, there is so many fish, then the cats and talapia come, i can not see a bluegill in the bunch. From reading, I dont want to just grab a bunch of these and throw in pond, I have no idea what these fingerlings are, or the type of cats. I have to beleive the walking cats are in our pond, but have not seen any.

I am almost positive they survive, we see them all winter long, plus they must survive, only ones we ever see are probally 1 to 2lbs. No idea what type, for all i know they could be in there for 50 years.

I am in the Tampa area.

I have to beleive the pond has been steadly getting worse for the last 8 years or so. From what I can tell, your looking at an unfished 2.5 acre pond for 8 or maybe more years. I have lived beside it for 2 years now.

Never fear, Winston. At least you have the forum as a good resource now to help guide you.

Ok, tonight I am going to stop and get a scale on the way home from office, I'll post these poor fish later tonight. Going to try and employ a buddy and catch a bunch of them and chart them. Still going to throw back in till I can see which, if not all, need to be taken out.

Ok, Winston, I'm thinking your situation may be a little more complex(perhaps a lot more complex) than the average stunted LMB pond.

You may have a couple of extreme X factors....1)Tilapia and 2) other possibly unknown species (e.g. walking catfish).

I did a great deal of research on Tilapia several years ago before stocking them in my ponds. I found what seemed to be very reliable reports in Mexican lakes which were targeting the American LMB fisherman $ experiencing significant LMB fishing declines when their lakes were protected from commercial fishing....sounds counter intuitive, doesn't it? Well, the explaination by several knowledgable folks was that the Tilapia in those lakes (they overwinter with ease in Mexico) without commercial netting were reaching a size and maturity where their diets changed from primarily veggie to small fish fry. This theory was substantiated by comparison to Tilapia lakes in which commercial netting was practiced...commercial netting of Tilapia = great LMB fishing, no netting = not great fishing. This interesting data was of little concern to me because Tilapia die off each year in my area.

That may be a factor in what you are seeing...but only one factor.

Other unknown factors involve the other species and what their characteristics may be. Something has caused the virtual elimination of the BG in your pond....and until you can figure out what that is, then stocking more BG is probably not the answer.

My guess, and its really a WAG, is that you are seeing the effects of a combination of negative LMB factors. 1) not nearly enough removal of small LMB, 2) adverse effects of Tilapia on recruitment of all other species 3) a possible feast or famine situation for the LMB and 4) simply unknown effects associated with other species.

The feast or famine comment relates to the following: Tilapia do not spawn below 68 degrees water temps. Your water temps in winter are most likely below their spawning level. Your pond probably has zero winter time forage and excess summer time forage....feast or famine for the LMB. When you combine that factor with years of stunting because of no LMB removal, you have a LMB population that can not effectively utilize the larger Tilapia forage that is present in winters and so many of them that there may not be enough to go around in the summer months. Thats out of the box thinking, on my part, and may be completely misplaced. But I think there is more to your case than meets the eye at first.

It seems to me you have a complex situation. Suggestions for improving: 1) find out what else is in there and what their characteristics are 2) remove small LMB 3) try to find a way to remove the larger Tilapia, the ones most likely to be predacious and if and when you can get those difficult factors ubder control, stock 6 inch CNBG.

I don't know, Winston, but I'm thinking your situation is more complex than we have been giving credit for and the solutions may not be as simple as the standard LMB stunting solutions....but thats just my 2 cents worth.

I agree, ML, a most interesting situation. Year-round Tilapia we don't have much direct experience with here - possibly none except for the Thailand Twins, and Rad and Don sure don't have any LMB.

Your WAG for small LMB and large Tilapia removal sounds good enough to be a SWAG to me. Think introducing adult BG might re-establish a 12 month forage base, maybe after enough of the above culling?

Winston/ML: How big is the mouth on a 1 to 2 lbs Tilapia? (What could they eat if primarily piscivorous?)

Theo,

The 2.9 pound Tilapia that is displayed on Cecil's records page was caught on a minnow imitation lure...minnow imitation lure. Its mouth, while not anything like a LMB, was ample to take small fish, if it were so inclined, and apparently it was so inclined. Winston's Tilapia are probably larger, much larger.

Recall Texas715 posts about a Tilapia die off this winter with 6 pound fish...some of his overwinter.

I think, rather, I would guess that the introduction of adult BG would be effective....but only if the problems which have lead to their virtual elimination have been remedied. Otherwise, situation will return to as is...if the problems are not addressed first.

Ok, I understand what you posted about the talapia, and I know your kicking around ideas. The pond that is over run with feed fish has these same large talapia and the cats. I have lived all over east coast, never have I seen a pond with so many fingerlings, the place might as well be a hatchery. If it had something to do with the talapia eating their own, would not this pond be seeing at least some effect also?

I need some help with the winter and summer forage, is that spawing for LMB to eat?

I can see there mouths on the surface, this time of year they are sucking on the top, I guess their mouths are and inch at least. If i had a cast net, it would be nothing to get half a dozen at a time.

My neighbor said, some years ago, not sure how many, some mexicans use to come buy and net the pond, he ran them off, it is private property, not really funny at this point but they could have been helping the pond more than damaging?

Winston,

Indeed a complex situation...now we have multiple ponds and situations to address.

Timing is a major factor here I believe.

What I mean is..it could be, could be, that the LMB became stunted/overpopulated from years of neglect (reducing the small BG to almost nothing), then someone came along and with good intentions threw in a bunch of Tilapia trying to "fix" that problem. Result, more stunted LMB and no BG and no winter forage and huge Tilapia. Yes, I'm just kicking around ideas, but isn't this a possibility and does it not explain the situation? at least the situation in one pond.

The question is how to remedy it...If I'm right, you have to get those stunted LMB and those carnivorous large Tilapia out of there....and re-establish BG.