Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations starting over

well after a year of agonizing about it, i've decided to baiscally start over with the pond i'm working with. over a few years, i've been able to grow more 6-8 pound bass than i can shake a stick at. the problem is that i've only been able to raise 2 bass over 10 pounds, and that's really all i'm interested in. this time i think i'm gonna try the all natural approach. my plan is fairly simple. get rid of all the bass in the pond that are under 3 pounds and all the ones over 3 that appear to be in less than ideal shape. from there, i plan to overload the pond with small bait store shiner minnows to divert any small bass i am unable to harvest away from the bluegills. i can get these for around a dollar/dozen. my theory is that this will give the bluegill population a chance to really take off and become the primary food source for potential trophy bass. i will use an ongoing selective harvest to continually remove all the small bass and all the male bass that i possibly can.

i just have 2 questions.

1. does this plan seem like it is sound, and at least in theory, should it work?

2. what type of shiner minnows are commonly sold in bait stores? i know that it is some type of shiner minnow, i'm just not sure what kind.

this is kind of a radical departure from what i've been doing. any help would really be appreciated. thanks guys.

Interesting approach, jignpig. Given your history of success in growing and catching trophy LMB, I have no doubt you'll make it work.

As for the viability of the plan, I'm not educated enough in such matters to even venture a guess other than to say I think the key is developing a plan and then properly executing it. Sounds like you have a plan, it appears you have a solid understanding of bass to allow you to make them grow to huge proportions, and certainly increasing their forage base with some diverse options that allow the BG to take off could be a decent concept.

Have you just considered removing all the bass within or without the slot limits you are establishing and then just loading the pond with BG as a quicker way to increase their primary forage base? I know buying bait shop shiners (they're usually golden shiners around here, by the way) is cheap, but if you can just get right to the point of increasing their primary forage fish, why not just go that route?

As an aside, I'll take your cast off LMB that won't meet your standards - they'd be revered in my ponds!

Please don't take offense at this but most pond owners would kill for success like that. Your standards are quite high, or maybe this is a -- shall we say -- a creative way of bragging?

You do realize a ten pound bass isn't even common place in the best bass fisheries in the south?

How big is this pond? It takes about 100 lbs. of forage to produce one 10 lb. bass. at a ratio of 10lb./ 1lb. of growth. Even in large productive bodies of water, the number of 10 lb. bass is a very small percentile if you look at the entire population.

Please forgive me if this has been an ongoing thread and I missed the details.

jignpig. I don't feel as qualified on large LMB as you are, so I really can't comment on if the approach is a good one. My only thought is that you should talk to a fish supplier to get your golden shiners instead of a bait store. The quality of the shiners would be higher, and the price lower.

Maybe look deeper into the genetics of the LMB that you have. Has that strain produced 10+# fish in the past? If not, then maybe that particular strain isn't the best for your goals and you should look elsewhere for fish to add to the pond. I know Texas has a "share the lunker" program that targets large LMB, but I don't know if those are available to someone out of state, and whether they will survive the colder winters.

Are BG large enough to get the biggest LMB over 10# or will a different forage fish be better?

I don't think you will produce very many 10 lb bass using BG and trying to add some GS as forage. GS will be hard to establish due to the numbers of larger bass that you say you already have. The pond won't procuce very many 10 lb bass to begin with as Cecil mentioned - maybe if lucky, one or 0.2-0.5 per ac. You are not telling us how big the pond is. Proper culling of bass sizes will also be a key factor in producing the 10 lbers. If you follow our mentor's Bob Lusk's advice for consistantly producing the 10 lb class of bass, you will almost have to resort to using larger high energy forage fish such as gizzard shad or regular additions of trout in the fall. Thread fin shad might do it if they survive in your region. Tilapia may also help increase the size of the bigger bass if you can find tilapia big enough to escape predation in the initial stockings. Good bass genetics are important, but I doubt that you will have to start over with new genetics, but what you want to do will not be cheap.

thanks for the replies and advice guys. as far as the size of the pond, it's about 2 acres. i did try just stuffing the thing with bluegill when i first started trying to grow big bass. the problem was that no matter how many gills i stocked, i could never seem to stay ahead of the bass (with the size gills i needed anyway). sure there were literally thousands of tiny bluegills in there, but not enough of the 1/2 to 3/4 pound bluegills it takes to feed and grow giant bass. and of course the small gills are not practical for growing big bass. for one thing, big bass don't seem interested in chasing 3 inch bluegill. for another, even if they do, the meal is not worth the effort expended to catch it. and no matter how many small gills i stocked and no matter how many small bass i took out, the few small bass that remained in the pond wreaked havoc on the baby gills and not many of them at all were ever able to grow to a size that they would be a viable food source for big bass. in short the big bass ate the big gills faster than i could grow big gills to replace the ones that were eaten. perhaps i gave up too soon on the whole "just stuff the pond with bluegill" approach, but i am impatient. my thinking now is that stocking small minnows could eliminate this problem. if i can establish a breeding population of minnows, perhaps it will keep the small bass at bay while the bluegill grow to a decent "trophy bass food" size. perhaps supplemental feeding of the bluegill will help them acheive viable forage size faster too.

as far as my standards go, well yeah i guess they are kinda high. i've always considered 10 pounds the "holy grail" of bassin' and it has been a goal for a while (so far unsuccessful) to develop a proven system for having not one, but several 10 pound plus fish swimming around in the pond i'm using. so far it's been a frustrating road. i like catching a bunch of 4-6 pound bass as much as anybody, but that's just not my goal. maybe saying i've raised a bunch of "big" bass in a failed effort to grow "giant" ones is a creative way of bragging. (i got a big kick out of that by the way) but i'll save the real bragging for when i've got more than one 10 pounder swimming around in the pond (if it ever happens).

as far as genetics go, i think they do play a part. but i just refuse to use that as an excuse. and trust me, i do know how rare 10 pound plus bass are too (particularly in small waters), but i also refuse to use that for an excuse. and i certainly don't like the sound of this being an expensive proposition. but none of that is going to deter me. i might fail miserably in this effort, but i won't go down without a fight. as far as stocking other fish like shad and tilapia, i fear this would end up as an expensive lost cause due to winter kill.

i'll keep y'all posted on the stuff i'm trying. and of course all the stuff i've done in the past to grow big bass, i'm happy to freely share with any pond managers who wanna do the same. thanks again for any and all ideas and suggestions. i welcome all the help i can get. and i'm definitely gonna look for everything i can find from mr. Lusk on the subject. i just have to find a way to grow a few more double digit bass. that's all there is to it.

The Tilapia will take some pressure off of your BG. While expensive at first, maybe you could make a couple of cages with solid bottoms that will allow the stocked Tilapia to spawn, but after the babies grow up large enough to be on their own, they will swim out of the cage. The caged Tilapia would be easy to transfer to an aquarium or other holding tank for cold weather.

In a pond with the number of bass that are the sizes you have, gshad would be the best option to grow bigger bass. I would stock them in the spring so they have the best shot at establishing.

Then I'd drop the cash and put in as many pounds of 6" to 8" rainbow trout each fall as you can afford. Depending on where you are in TN, rainbow trout should be pretty cheap, particularly in that size range. Trout in that size should be fed on by 15"+ bass beefing up the bigger bass even more.

If you are REALLY wanting more 10 pound bass, remove all your CC. They are just taking up space bass could be using.

CJ has some good ideas.
jnp's comment was: " my thinking now is that stocking small minnows could eliminate this problem. if i can establish a breeding population of minnows, perhaps it will keep the small bass at bay while the bluegill grow to a decent "trophy bass food" size. perhaps supplemental feeding of the bluegill will help them acheive viable forage size faster too."

Establishing a breeding population of minnows will be pretty difficult and will be dependent on numerous things, some of the important things are available quality habitat for introduced species, number of existing predators that can eat adult breeders, fertility of the system, and diversity of other similar sized prey items. It will be very interesting to see if you can get a breeding population of minnows to survive in your bass heavy pond. IMO using minnows to solve your problem will just promote more small bass survival, their better, quicker recruitment into the fishery, and probably increase, not decrease your "problem" of growing the elusive 10 lbers.

IMO the idea of feeding the BG a high quality food will help in your goal.

Not all shad will winter kill in your region. Gizzard shad are noted for very good winter survial in as far north as zone 5. Although g.shad do have their downsides. Do more homework. Fish that periodically stress due to climate are good candidates as larger sized prey items since they are easier to catch/eat when stressed, thus tilapia, threadfin, and trout are good large food items all stressing out at differrent times of the year. This provides extended heavy feeding opportunities and high growth potential for the largest bass. Periodic stocking of larger prey items will be fairly costly, but what price are you willing to pay for the 10 lbers, especially if you want to do this without g.shad? As I said it will not be cheap in money or effort. Regular periodic stocking of these larger fish does work if the fishery is managed correctly. It results in "lost causes" primarily when done improperly, inconsistantly, and the total ecosystem is mismanaged.

Others, some here, are knowledgabe at growing large bass besided Bob Lusk. It is the others are not as published nor famous as Bob Lusk. The other problem for you IMO, is trying to do this in a 2 ac pond which is typically too small of an ecosystem to crowd in a lot of 6 - 10 lb LMB for the long term. Two ac pond can grow a 10 lb LMB, but it is not a common occurrence, is not easy and numerous things have to come together for it to happen which is why it is fairly rare. Then you have to hope that the big old bass can be caught by angling. Big old trophy bass are not dumb and become conditioned to anglers, even smart anglers. Individual bass have different "learning" abilities. I'm not saying it can't be done it is just difficult and several, if not numerous things, have to be done properly for consistant success. If you succeed, you are one of a few, and could write some pond management articles about your experiences. Do some more in-depth homework, look for patterns or trends, then put them into practice, and I wish you good pond management. Let us know how things are progressing and what things you are trying and what things are working. We are always seeking new pond ideas and success stories here.

If I were starting over I would stock FLA strain. Genetics does matter, as far as age and size potential. It is not using an excuse, but starting off with the right strain, which should be the foundation of your project.

I tend to manage with a slight lean towards large LMB, but generally stacked. If I wanted 10lbers around, I would have to drastically reduce the number of lmb. I have the right strain, but that is just not a good goal for my management needs. And I am working a 6 acre pond, 3X as big as yours. I have never even seen a 10lber, very few over 5. But almost every lmb I catch is between 1 1/2 and 3, and almost everyone is fat. I also had to start over as I was stuck with a long term stunted population. Those older fish were behind from the start.

You would be surprised how small of prey lmb chase. I have sen them chase thier own fry 1/2 inch long, and inhale as many as they could from the school. Jumping out of water for dragonflies, gambusia, I would not worry about going out of your way for getting big bg, just max forage.

Shiners from a bait store are not the way to go. They are vastly overpriced, inferior quality and possible disease carrying sickly fish. Most likely GSH. I planted 400 near or jumbos in my forage fish pond, or baitfish cocktail, but I'm letting them growout to breeder size. What you really need is a growout pond or a forage pond to make it easier and have better control of your forage.

Either section off part of your 2 acres, or make a mini pond, and raise your own. Pellet feed everything in there, pump them up for your lmb to eat. Both bg and gsh. Maybe even fhm. Cull or selective harvest out a lot more lmb than you are planning. Especially males. Chances of having a 10lb male are about zero. Get your journal and your camera, verify annual grow rates and only keep the best. Most likely you will be lucky to have 400 lbs of lmb in your 2 acre pond, total. Only keep the best of the best and cull the rest. Maybe down to 50-75 fish. Way less mouths to feed, way more forage per mouth. Feed anything and everything you can pellets.

Not to be critical, but honest, you are going way outside the box of what a normal pond or natural lmb pond does. If you had 1 or 2 fish in your pond over 10 lbs, that is natures way. It is tough to fight nature.

If you really want to truly start over as in completely remove all fish from the pond, consider stocking only female bass... In a 2 acre pond, that would truly be the easiest way to ensure none of the biomass is being wasted by dinker males. The initial cost of sourcing all female fish to stock and transport would be high, but the return would be worth it for the goals you're seeking in your pond.

Getting a batch of all FLA females would be ideal, but I don't even know if that is feasible, let alone the costs. If you will be working with your own stock, which would be my guess, I'd just harvest every male I caught. You can't catch them all, and it does not hurt for the females to have a male around to hang around the nest. All those little lmb will just end up as another source of forage anyway. If you do it right you will have almost no recruitment of anything.

Of course if you have any cc in there, get them all out.

Some good ideas have been provided for you. Decide which ones are best for your goal. I think most others are agreeing with me, your project which ever way you go will ultimately not be cheap in time, effort, or cost. Keep us in the information loop and your progress.

thanks so much guys for the time y'all have taken to help. a lot of thought went into those replies and i really, really appreciate it. a lot of food for thought here. 2 things i have definitely gleaned is that 1 - my plan is probably not gonna work real well. and 2 - this won't be cheap or easy. fortunately though, y'all gave me a lot of good alternatives which mnake a lot of sense. the trick is obviously going to be aquiring and sustaining a large population of large forage fish. we'll see what happens and i'll definitely keep y'all posted.

i know this can be done. but as y'all have noted, this has proven to be trickier than i ever imagined. i was spoiled by early success, having grown one bass over 12 pounds early on in the pond i'm working with. but there was obviously something special about that fish. i don't know if it was genetics, or she was just the "right fish at the right time" (a big fish during a time when there was enough large forage to continually meet or exceed her needs with very little competition for it). regardless of what it was, this fish was an absolute freak, especially considering that she came up the "hard way" in the pond with no supplemental feeding. she was just too wary to ever take to it. she was not only over 10, she was over 10 365 days a year - even post spawn! my daughter aptly named her "mama" as she was the undisputed matriarch of the pond, having spawned many generations of offspring. i really thought that one of her offspring would emerge to take her throne after she died back in the early summer of '09. but it hasn't happened yet. so y'all are right, it obviously takes a myriad of factors coming together simultaneously over a prolonged period to produce a double digit fish. maybe i can pull it off again, maybe not. but i'm sure gonna try. here's a picture of my biggest success and here's hoping that lightning can strike twice in the same pond. thanks again so much guys. i think i have a better handle on this now. i'll try to keep y'all posted.

Well lets think about this for a second. JigNP you said your want more than 1, 10lbs bass in your 2 acre pond right. Well from everything I have read you need to cull dang near everything before you can get fish that size and stock,stock,stock forage fish. So just put like 5 LMB in the the pond and all the forage fish it can handle!! There problem solved You'll end up with not 2, 10 pounders but maybe 4 or 5!!! Just kidding just kidding. I do have one question though? Exactly how much room in a pond does a 10 pound bass require? Out of a 2 acre pond how much would he like to be his area?? Or does that not matter?

Will a Florida bass even make it through a Tennessee winter in a 2 acre pond that could have rapidly falling temps vs. a large body of water? I have my doubts. Does anyone know?

I know Malone and Sons has lost Coppernose bluegills in cold winters in Arkansas which is farther south so...

They make it through in my pond for 10 years now, I'm off to catch some now. Plant a few frogs and turtles, try to catch some out of lmb only pond and disposable pond also. My best man's bro in law caught a lake record 18 1/2 out of Amador, which has trout year round. Nuke power plant emerg. cooling lake yielded a 20+. I think we are same latitude and temp issues in NorCal. Feed em trout, they get to the 20's all over the state. Never happened before FLA strain got here. Hope I catch Mr. Goldwhiskers. I'm ready.

Cecil,

We have Florida bass all over here in Arknasas. Central Arkansas and Northern. Can't say I have seen any die?? Or heard of it in the paper? There are to lakes here we fish all the time that have FL bass in them and I have never seen any dead. I guess I will find out though as I have 12 FL bass in my pond in Batesville Arknasas and thats only about 2 hours from the MS border. I hope they are ok???