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#226288 07/13/10 08:23 PM
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I am a complete newbie. I have a 1/3 acre pond only about 2-3 feet deep. I'm a frog/toad fan and have identified 10 species in my little pond. I have recently dug out all the cattails that covered the surface but don't know where to go from here. I'd like to clear up the murky water and add a fountain for oxygenation,lighted at night. I'd like to have plain goldfish or something cheap live in it. Because I live only 1/4 mile from the Chesapeake bay, the herons and egrets think it's a big sushi bar. Are goldfish suitable for this? What kind and size of fountain do I need? I was planning to put some large rocks under the water for protection when the herons come. How do I catch the snapping turtles? Any suggestions will be really appreciated.

Last edited by frogfan; 07/13/10 08:26 PM. Reason: forgot turtle problem
frogfan #226295 07/13/10 09:30 PM
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One third acre just 2-3 ft deep is techically a wetland. Putting a fountain in it could pose mechanical problems for the fountain due to clogging the intake pipe during low water periods. Benefical wetland plants in a balanced habitat will provide all the oxygenation a pond like this needs. Trying to maintain decent water quality in such a shallow water body will definately be a challenge. Keeping pond scum and duckweed at bay will be a big challenge without numerous competing plants. Shallow water in bright sunlight tends to grow a tremendous amount of plants which can be a nuisance or blessing. Without plant diversity one or two species will tend to become rampant and grow to nuisance proportions. I suggest looking into planting numerous types of beneficial wetland plants/species to be aestetically pleasing as possible while stabilizing the wetland habitat that has been strongly impacted by removal of the large amount of cattails. Aquatic plants are nature's water purifiers and will be needed abundantly in this pond to keep it relatively respectable looking without resorting to adding lots of herbicides.

Turtles, including snapping turtles, are natural inhabitants of wetlands and ponds and are usually beneficial pond inhabitants. I do not see them as a nuisance or problem in this type of wetland pond. To maintain the rich amphibian and invertebrate community, I would not add goldfish. Maybe a small minnow species at the very most, maybe a topminnow. Well balanced wetland ponds can do just fine without a fish population. There are predatory invertebrates that prey on mosquito larvae and adults in healthy wetland habitats. IMO you should quickly begin to replace the cattail population with other beneficial emergent and some submerged short growing vegetation species or you will quickly see a decline in the diversity and density of the frogs, other amphibian populations and numerous invertebrate species. The amount of shade the pond receives will largely determine what plants will best grow there.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/16/10 10:48 PM. Reason: spelling errors

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Bill Cody #226347 07/14/10 10:00 AM
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Thanks so much Bill for all the info. The pond is only supplied by rainwater from our impervious surfaces piped into the pond. I am willing to augment it by a hose to make it deeper if that helps. Our pond banks will allow another 2 feet of water.We have a very deep 475 ft. well with plenty of pressure. Pond is in the shade until noon. I like the regular turtles but we have 3 dinner plate sized snapping turtles and I have 3 wading grandchildren. The snappers are eating the frogs as well. I'll go to the aquatic nursery and buy some vegetation ASAP.

frogfan #226429 07/14/10 08:18 PM
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Another 2 ft of water would help some but I would still consider it a wetland - now just a little deeper wetland. Pond may not maintain the level of the new water level very well. It would be expensive to keep adding water to try to keep it at the deeper level.
Half day sun will allow most plants to grow well. I would hold off from going out right away and buying plants from a nursery without doing some good homework. Some places are likely to sell you things that could be a real nuisance in shallow water. They will sell you things just because those are what they "carry" and standardly sell to water garden people. I suggest you first to some homework and have a list of good beneficial plants that will not cause you problems later, yet provide good habitat for a wetland. Then seek out those specific plants.
I was able to look through some past posts about bneficial plants for ponds. Check out this link below to some PBoss Forum posts that have lots of suggestions for some of the better pond plants. Some pond plants that are good for a deeper pond will not be good for a shallow wetland. I think you should focus on emergent shoreline plants. Many of them will grow into 12"-16" of water. This will provide good frog habitat. Also choose some small - dwarf spreading water lilies for good frog habitat. See my article about water lilies in the current issue (Jul-Aug) of Pond Boss magazine. Some small and dwarf spreading lilies will not take over your wetlands habitat, stay reasonably contained, and provide some great colors all during the summer.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212891#Post212891

For your location, about the only submerged plants for a shallow wetlands that stays wet all year round would IMO be dwarf Sagittaria (Sagittaria subulata - 'awl' leaf arrowhead) and sprial eel grass both short growing submergents.
I am available for second opinions regarding suggestions from others for what plants to buy.



Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/14/10 09:04 PM.

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frogfan #226443 07/14/10 09:28 PM
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Wow it's a small world frogfan. I grew up in Severna Park, but now live in Northeast OH.

Where do you live, what neighborhood or area?

I only know of like 4 decent freshwater bodies of water in Anne Arundel County(Bluffpoint, Severn, Magothy, Lake Waterford) and two of those are rivers only freshwater half the year.

The geography is not that friendly to ponds as the soil is extremely sandy in the area. What you end up with is a lot of wetland and marsh areas like you just described as water travels freely through the soils.

Bill provides sound advice about plant diversity. It will be difficult to establish several species in the presence of cattails and other reeds like phragmites. I don't think you need to add fish. Perhaps minnows would do well in there controlling mosquito larvae.

Good luck to you.




Bill Cody #226624 07/15/10 10:12 PM
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Thanks again Bill. You are full of information. I guess it's homework time for me. Thank goodness I love the lilies. I appreciate your availability for second opinions on plants.

Black Bass #226625 07/15/10 10:24 PM
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You gave up balmy Severna Park for the snows of NE Ohio? smile I live in Crownsville, no neighborhood, just off Old Generals' Highway. My creek is actually the headwaters of the South River (probably the source of my snapping turtles) but that isn't where the "pond" is. AA county requires all impervious surfaces to be downspouted into a "catch basin". Mine is 1/3 acre and all clay. Very little sand anywhere on my 6 acres. I dug out all the cattails and I don't have mosquitos because I have hundreds of hungry toads and frogs. I only wanted fish to look at, not eat. All advice very much appreciated Black Bass.

frogfan #226630 07/15/10 10:43 PM
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You pretty much summed up what I would say Cody, but in a much more diplomatic manner. Personally I think removing all of the cattails was a huge mistake already, and anything alive in the pond has a bullseye painted on them now. That is just to shallow to offer any protection from most aquatic birds, and they will have a field day since you opened the buffet for them.

That is more of a bog, than a pond. Goldfish would last about a week, if that. Gambusia and FHM, not the rosy red variety might work for fish. I go with lilies, minis, I have 5 different types myself, the changables are real nice. They would stay in scale. I would do like Cody said, study water and marginals, take your time and put a few in to see how they work out. You pretty much stripped out what gave your pond any type of natural balance. Now nature will throw you a few curveballs. If I may ask, how did you remove all of the cattails?

The Pond Frog #226645 07/16/10 04:29 AM
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Gambusia are nasty predators of tadpoles. They love to pick and poke at tadpoles til they are dead. Even a less aggressive fish like the banded killifish would probably peck at tadpoles. If you truly want a frog pond, leave the fish out... As Bill said, there are predatory inverts that will keep the mosquitoes at bay.

CJBS2003 #226807 07/16/10 10:54 PM
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I question how many frogs the turtles are eating. As far as I know snapping turtles do not eat a lot of frogs. However wading birds eat a lot of frogs. Often a fair percentage of frogs move out of the pond/wetland/bog during summer to forage on invertebrates. Expect that to occur especially now since you removed all the cattails. Maybe consider replanting either dwarf or ornimental cattails or the smaller cattail species (Typha angustifolia). Keep them restricted to a specific area with manual cutting or a herbicide such as aquatic approved glysophate product applied in late summer or fall.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/16/10 10:55 PM.

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The Pond Frog #228055 07/24/10 10:20 PM
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Backhoe

Bill Cody #228056 07/24/10 10:28 PM
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Thanks Bill but there is no restricting of cattails. I went from freshly dug "pond" to total cattails in 2 summers. They were so thick that the blacksnakes were able to run along the tops of the cattails chasing after the frogs. I have been told that frogs are especially sensitive to even the approved herbicides because they absorb things through their skin. My main concern is that the turtles not snap at my wading grandchildren and the frog diet is secondary. There can't be many frogs which have moved out as the decible level is still very high.

frogfan #228208 07/26/10 12:21 AM
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I know it is hard to believe, seeing how a snapping turtle behaves out of it's element, but when in water, snapping turtles are not aggressive. The defense mechanism is only active on land. I have put large snapping turtles destined for the table in water filled tubs to let them purge for a few days, and once in the water they are a totally different animal. You can literally step on one in the water, and expect no recourse. Test it out yourself. It will put you mind at ease. If you remove them from your pond, more will move in.

Bill Cody #228468 07/27/10 11:23 AM
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Strangely, since the cat tails have been removed I have had no water birds come to the pond at all. Maybe they feel less protected without cover. The only change I have noticed is that I seem to have more visible toads and all of them are allowing us to get within inches. The grandchildren have been petting them. We have had extremely hot weather for a long time. Maybe they are dopey like the rest of us.


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