Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Male BG: Mature?

Bill and Bruce :



I have read both parts 1 and 2 of the BG articles several times and I am fairly sure Theo has also. I had them both out when I looked at Ryan's fish. WRT fish 2 I missed the size of the earflap (did not pay enough attention - uggh) but other than that I see no black/dark tipped scales , gular area looks female , as does urogenital area, and other pic indicates females larger than this and colored like this in the pond. I see no hint of burgundy . Ryan indicates plankton bloom and algae and bright colors on HBG no indication of muddy/ turbid water. If Theo and I ( Ryan missed also) are having this much trouble with the help of the articles what does that say wrt those of us, other than you guys, if we were to try a male only pond or to need to be able to make reliable sex determinations on BG. I will try to take some pics this weekend and post them for round 2.

Grasshopper...Grasp the pebble from my hand.

Just because Bill and I are 95% sure doesn't mean that a newbie to this sort of thing would be any more than 51%. Be assured that by reading the article and being selective, there will be those fish that are 100% sure to everybody.

Honestly, I'll bet that if I sorted through 1,000 randomly captured bluegill (both sexes) over 8 inches there would be 400 or so that I'd be sure enough to stock in an all male pond, and I'll bet there would be at least 300 out of that thousand that a person who read the article would be certain of. This fish is one of the 20% or so of 8+ inch males that I probably wouldn't "pull the trigger" on to put in the all male pond.

The burgundy is there. See the burgundy, be the burgundy.

It is, what burgundy is, right before it turns white.

Keep in mind also that in mystery fish, such as this, that the eartab trumps the vague coloration issues. Kind of like thinking that you may have just caught a sauger, but the fish has a big white spot on the base of it's tail, making it a walleye--or at the very least a saugeye.

...and two other things while I'm at it. Fish are a lot easier to ID in person than they are in a photo. Also you've seen so many humans that you may look, and in an instant say "male", even if he's got long hair, earrings and a kilt.

All of the big bull BG I have caught in surrounding lakes have exhibited what I would consider unquestionable male traits, like the magazine pics. Big earflaps, bright colors, differences as significant as between peacocks and peahens. Most of the big bulls I have caught while they were on their nests (I think) in late spring dragging tiny jigs on the bottom in 7' of water off of rocky banks with no vegetation. The one outstanding difference in how I manage my pond compared to most others on this forum is the type of feed I use. I am feeding 42% protein all plant based pellets. No fish meal or animal by-products. The trout I have purchased raised on this feed look like every rainbow I've caught from the Mad River in Ohio to the Obey below Dale Hollow's dam in Tennessee. Would a feed designed for trout be the cause of lack of coloring in the male BG?

No way, master Bruce - last time I tried that, I got a boot to the head! :p

Ryan :

I don't think the feed you are using would have an effect on coloration under your circumstances. The feed I use, as best I understand, is like yours wrt not having fish meal or animal by products although it is not 42 %.

Bruce it is good to know that with all the BG I have observed and read about including your great articles I can tell male from female about as well as flipping a coin (60% of the time). :p Just kidding. As you , Bill and Ryan note the obvious males and females (probably 65% of the population)are no problem. It is the young ones and the sneekers and cuckholders that are hard to id. I am not trying a male only pond so the if in doubt hold them out process will not help rid the pond of lesser fish and sneekers and cuckholders. Thanks for the help. Any more tips ?

Another question about fish 2. It like the others was stocked at the same time. It is just as big as the other males of the same age and is in good condition. Some females in this pond are also that big. Why would it not have dominate breeding male colors and ear flap? With those colors any chance its breeding strategy is that of a female impersonator ?

Ewest,

Actually I politely disagree on the feed relation to the coloring. I have had at least one fish farmer tell me bluegills exclusively on pellets are lighter in color than wild bluegills. And I've observed this myself. However I have to admit there could be other factors as in water color and clarity. However if you think about it, it could make sense. Why? Because with less caroten and other pigments in their diet from zooplankton and crustaceans, they may have less to work with than if they are exclusively on pellets.

During the off spawning season my trout are rather pale to silvery in coloration. However if I get a diet that is supplemented with astaxithan (artifical coloring) and feed it for 90 days they do color up and not just the flesh. I also have a text that says I can enhance the red/orange in my brook trout by adding paprika to the feed with fish oil.

CB1 :

I appreciate your thoughts and input and am glad you help keep an eye on these posts. Noted and I will do some checking.

No doubt that fish in aquaculture settings (lots of fish in a small area) where they rely on a large intake of pellets or where something else is added to the pellets, may be effected. Diet can do that just look at flamingos and the pink colors from the food they eat. "The young hatch with white plumage, but the feathers of a flamingo in adulthood range from light pink to bright red, due to carotenoids obtained from their food supply."

Where a wild pond has only supp. feeding I have observed no difference from normal fish food. Plus in Ryan's pond it is not a lack of color but possible male - female color reversal and some minor lightness that is in question. His HBG have vivid colors of males and his females have BG colors and all are eating the same food, a small part of which is pellets. He has been feeding only since April 12 for this year. The question I answered was " is his fish food the cause of his BG colors" not "could food effect any fish colors" . I hope this helps and I will post what I find.

I should add that when it comes to ear tab shape and size, that there is a fairly significant overlap between males and females. If the only factor allowed in making a differential was the eartab, there would be a good number of females that would qualify as possible males, and vice versa. I guess you could call it a rule of thirds, with one-third being strictly male realm, one-third female and one-third that could go either way.

There are also some regional vaviations that I'm beginning to notice. Some of the examples of female ear tabs that I've seen from other regions give the female ear tab a little more of an upturn that I would never see here.

Maybe the true "art" to bluegill ID is just knowing which fish that you don't know, if ya know what I mean.

I just received the mag. today; thanks to the personnel envolved. Much better than mid to last of month.
Now I am really confused. The lower left pic of immature BG males' eartab looks the same as the females on the next page to this untrained eye.
But, I do almost see the lavender color on the lower left picture, and more yellow on the females' breasts.

Ah, yess....Lavender recognition is an early sign of pondsanity.

That lower left fish is from my all male bluegill pond. He's one of the specially selected fish from my little breeding program. That fish is fast growing, and hasn't attained any dominant male characteristics, but I caught what I think is that same fish yesterday morning on a newly built nest. If you were to hold that fish in your hand, you would see the black nape scales (which females never have) and the lavender hue would be more apparent as you turned him a little to catch the sun's reflection. Part of the point of the article, which we may not have stated clearly enough, is that those pictures are to illustrate how similar these immature or late maturing fish are to females. The first part of the article showed the characteristics of the dominant males, which are the ones most people would choose for an all male pond.

Check out figure 3 in the first article. Those are the dominant, easy to ID fish, then look at figure 2 of the second article and those are the toughies.

Burgundy and Lavender. Say what !! They are going to think we are in France talking about wine and spices. :p

Bruce said ""when it comes to ear tab shape and size, that there is a fairly significant overlap between males and females. If the only factor allowed in making a differential was the eartab, there would be a good number of females that would qualify as possible males,..."

This is what I was saying in my earlier post about fish #2 that sometimes a few females will have fairly large ear flaps. Ryans bgill #2 is a very good example of a fish you want to reject for stocking into your all male bgill pond. Stock only the definate and distinctly male looking individuals. Again when selecting male fish you have to see several fish of various sizes from the same pond before you can confidently sort and select the males. If you are a novice and don't see at least two or better three positive male features on a fish REJECT IT. The more practice you get the better and more profecient you will become at sorting males. Some ponds can have a larger percentage of "iffy" bgills than others. This could be due to the strain of bgill or environmental conditions. Obviously I stay away from getting fish from ponds with iffy bgills. I prefer to get my male bgill from sources that have individuals with pronounced or enlarged types of ear flaps. It makes sorting easier. I usually segregate all new males for awhile in a cage while I feed train them and allow male features to develop if the fish are not quite fully mature.

Yes the Figure 1 (Part II) of immature males was to show readers what immature male look like and that the immature males can look a lot like females, especially to novice bgill sorters. Note the article said that you want to select your males from a POPULATION that has late maturing males such as those in figure 1. We did not say that you should stock the type of individuals or sizes of fish that were in figure 1 of Part II. Presence of late maturing males mean you have a population of bgill that are growing relatively fast.

Note to magazine readers. Part 2 of our article left out our Table of Standard Weights for bluegill. I was not given a chance to proof a final copy before it was printed. I will some how try to get it inserted into Part 3 and make it conform to the title.

I did a little fishing last night and caught what I would consider a definite male that I would guess at 7". Long ear flap, definite black tips on the nape and brighter coloring. I wish I would have taken a picture now but the bass were chasing forage all over the place. Right or wrong I think of feeding fish like feeding chickens. A broiler with good genes fed 28% turkey starter will grow to 7lbs in 6 weeks. Feed it 21% Broiler feed and the same chicken might go 6lbs. in the same amount of time. Supplement carotene by adding corn gluten meal, alfalfa hay or marigold flowers and their skin will turn yellow, which roasts to a beautiful golden color. Commercially grown chickens are often dyed yellow to achieve this. Maybe I can get C.B. to do some touch ups

Time for round 3. First were Theo's fish , second were Ryan's fish and now as promised mine. All from one pond in 2 hrs. and only the mid-sized fish. No big ones no little ones. Are they male , female or other ? Some are easy, some are ... well you decide.

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7



Colorful aren't they.

Here's a scarey one. Colorwise this bluegill looks like a male to me. But it's a female full of eggs! Apparently it's from a pond with some color to it and possibly the males are even darker?

Eric:
My guesstimates on your BG pics:
1. Male
2. Male
3. Male
4. ??? too much in the shadow for me to judge
5. Female
6. Female or possibly Female Impersonator
7. Male
Yes, very colorful, and indecently large (I hate you :p ). It will be interesting to see how the Yankee experts judge your Coppernose.

Cecil: You have quite a collection of fat bellied fish!

1. catfish bait
2. I almost see lavender
3. stunted female
4. fake
5. normal female
6. sneaker
7. GSF
:p those are real beauties.

Cecil, that's a bruiser of a lady.

That fish did not come out of my ponds gentlemen. It's a taxidermy customer.

1. Male 100%
2. Male 100%
3. I'm jealous. This fish looks immature and is nine inches long? Awesome. In the context of the previous fish I can't tell for sure.
4. Male 90%
5. No idea
6. Female 66.35%
7. Non dominant male 80%

Cecil's fish: Disgusting andromorphic shape-shifting female.

"I'm jealous. This fish looks immature and is nine inches long?"

My thought exactly.

CB1 that is the oddest BG I have seen. Male colors but on the pic I can't see any black scale edges (top is to dark/purple to tell).

My thoughts and recall I saw them as caught.

1 Male at small end of dominance range of 8-14in.

2 Male at small end of dominance range of 8-14in.

3 Immature male

4 Immature male note black fin spot and about 7in. Only one with yellow at fin base -very odd in this pond.

5 Color change artist. Hard to believe but this fish in about 15 seconds changed from color of 7 to as seen and 15 seconds after that was lighter and had a purple hue. My guess is an immature male.

6 Female

7 Like 3 an immature male

Of these I would only be comfortable with 1 and 2 as 100% male. None of these were CNBG from what I saw.

My first impression was that #3 was an immature male, but then I saw #'s 1 and 2 at approximately the same size and it was enough to spook me from committing. If I was forced to guess I'd definitely go male.

Time to revive an old thread. How about this one, guys and gals? Male or female? I have my ideas, but I'm not experienced enough to i.d. all the BG we catch. I'm sure it would be easier on y'all to see more BG from the same pond, but this is the only BG pic I have on the computer so far. It is an estimated 8-8.5".

Our BG are nowhere near the others posted yet, but they're still young and growing. This is a good example of the larger of our mid-range size.