Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Spawn Tme Fun

With spring upon us (at least in the south) it is time to have some spawn time fun. In that regard the question of water spawning temps. is a relevant discussion. We can all look at the reported spawning temps of various species but what does that mean.

Last week I reported the first signs of the spawn. In fact a few LMB and lepomis ( BG or RES hard to tell at less than 1/2 in.) have spawned , hatched and reached swim up. We have had an unusual spring - hot in Jan. ,cold in Feb. then hot in early March. The ponds are full + but we have not had huge rains to muddy the water and make it cold. Surface water temps. are 70 , but at 3 ft. the temps. are 65 and at 5 ft. 58. These temps are up 10 degrees at the surface and up 11 degrees at 3 ft and up 5 degrees at 5 ft. from eight days ago. Talk about rapid heating ! Our friend "Ray" ( as named by Bruce) and all his energy have been in full swing.

One fisherman's tale from the south is that when the redbuds are in bloom the male LMB are looking for nest sites , and when the dogwoods bloom the LMB are in full spawn. With this weather we went from redbuds to dogwoods in 3 days but no major LMB spawn yet. Difference in air and water temps. I guess.

Here is the question. When the published material says that X fish spawns at Y water temp. does that mean surface water temp or temp at spawning depth and how do you account for the different depths and temps. used both between species and within a species? For example biology tells us that many predator fish spawn first so their yoy will be ready to eat forage fish yoy at hatching. What if the water temps. at the spawning depth of the predator are to cold when the forage fish spawn in quickly warming shallower water? Is that one example of when we have a bad predator recruitment year ? Thoughts or comments on a slow post day.

Not to dodge the question because I don't know, but I do have a question myself. Redear (shellcracker as we know them here in Ga) are beginning to bite and are full of eggs, since they are stocked in small amoumts compared to bluegill because they only spawn once and the first of the bream family to spawn, do you guys think it is wise to release more on these to keep a good supply of shellcracker?

I've always thought that fish respond to a combination of water temperature and photoperiod. When fish are brought together, to attractive spawning grounds, around the same time, then they likely use visual cues to "seal the deal". The red fringe on a redear eartab, the white spot on a walleye tail...these sorts of things in combination with length of day and water temperature converge and intertwine to initiate spawning. While the water temperature can be tied to approximate spawning times of some species, fish such as yellow perch have been shown to have gamete development even in tanks based on increase in daily light duration. It is also likely that not all fish of a certain species fire up at the same time, giving us our "rolling spawn" phenomena that would seem to give evolutionary advantage, since fry produced over a period of time are less likely to experience a year where every fish dies off due to an extreme weather event or the presence of a particular predator right at the time of spawn.

I also believe that the one overriding factor as to year class strength is availability of appropriate sized forage during first few months of life. Since one female can produce enough fry for a full year class in most ponds, it seems logical that the year class strength is dictated by how quickly each YOY class can reach sizes that discourage predation, and good enough size to survive first winter, especially in the north.

Bruce is correct in pointing out the importance of photoperiod in the spawning process. I have often observed my yellow perch not begin spawning despite the early occurrrence of correct water temps. However as the day length progressively increases in length then the primary spawn begins. I think some or a few individual fish will spawn early despite the photoperiod is not exactly correct. This is undoubtedly due to an innate amount of variation within each species. The variation allows for or results in the evolutionary change that is always occurring among species.

posted by Ewest:Here is the question. When the published material says that X fish spawns at Y water temp. does that mean surface water temp or temp at spawning depth and how do you account for the different depths and temps. used both between species and within a species

Eric, I would have asked you that question? I think you know the answer. I have always wanted to ask, but didn't want to sound dumb. I assumed it was the temp. at depth of spawn. Also, would early aeration have any effect, or is the daylight length more important?

b-well and Bruce and BM :

The question is open for comment. It does not matter if you know the answer feel free to join in the speculation. I don't know but a fraction of the answer either. I think it means at the spawn (bed) location but I have not seen it stated that way. I think you need both temp. and photo period and there is a range for both (some variance). If you mix up a bunch of cold water all of the sudden it could delay the spawn.

I never take pre spawn BG or RES at least not the biggest best conditioned ones. I would release the RES. That may not be right for your pond but that is my approach. I don't think it is smart to harvest my best fish . I leave them for genetic purposes. This is certainly true for BG because of their spawning methods (sneakers cuckholders etc.).To much evidence exists that provides that it is not good to take out your best prespawn male lepomis. I would think that applies to your best conditioned most prolific females also.

Bruce I agree that there are several conditions wrt spawning. Water temps , photo period , population dynamics (crowding), fish condition , spawning suppression (ie gizzard shad , sunfish ,crappie) adequate spawning areas (dominance) and I am sure I missed some. In addition to visual clues there are auditory ones also and chemical (hearing and smell). Photo period should be about the same each year at the same time. I know photo period has been manipulated in lab studies on spawning and they usually just give an approximate time like 12 hrs.

In the question above I should have been more specific. Could this result in a reduced spawn and survival of the predators (not a total failure). No doubt they will stop and start and adjust to conditions and string things out especially the further south in the LMB range as that is an option (longer period of water temps. in the acceptable range). The dynamics of the spawn and the various species adaptation are amazingly complex and fascinating. I think I will find some spawners and drop the temp. probe to the actual spawn location and see what it reveals.

The BG and RES each have their own ideas about my anticipated spawning schedule for them. :p The first few BG spawned mid-March and RES did also. April weather was cold early and BG had a normal spawn on 4-23+- no sign of RES spawn in April. In May the schedule really got strange. The BG spawned on full moon May 12+- and no sign of RES then. Now 9 days later the RES are having a large spawn. Those big male RES are mean when on the beds. They were mauling the 3 in BG that would swim near the nests. Looked like heat seeking missiles -- poor little BG. Some were spawning in water less than 2 ft deep. Tried to take some pics but no luck the camera will not shoot through the water. Sat and watched 8 RES males guarding and in an hour no small BG got through the perimeter and no LMB were around the entire time. Fascinating.

Anyone else have a spawning report?

Need I say more.

Bruce :

Tell us about the RES delivered to you and your plans for them.

I split an order with NEDOC for 450 redears. I took 150 of them and released them in an unused pond to attempt feed training. Since they only cost me 60 smackers, I figured if I even got ten of them feed trained I'd be happy. If someone would just remind me I'll tell a story about fishing for redears for Dr. Willis. I've got a patient right now.

just give em more gas and finish the story.

Give the patient the gas? What kind of Dentistry do you think Bruce's doing?

Seriously, Bruce - Redear story, please?

Well, Dr. Willis wanted some good pictures of redears for an article he's doing. I went to my favorite spot three times, which is a 425 mile round trip. I think I did an adequate job of getting some photos. Several of the fish were around a pound, but there was one fish that was far, far and away the biggest. That's the one pictured. I chose to release it rather than risk the stressful experience of weighing on an official scale. Maybe I'll catch it again someday. It wasn't as photogenic as some of the others, so it won't be in the magazine article, but I thought you might enjoy a photo of a 13+ inch redear.

By the way--I could sense the fish hypnotizing me as I held it. I needed to release it soon to preclude dire consequences. I really haven't felt the same since. I've already been through some counseling, but it doesn't seem to help. Any advice would be appreciated.

Bruce,
You have been subjected to a twisted form of aquatic somnambulism. Dependent on the amount of time spent in direct eye contact, it is feasible that you have been diabolically brainwashed to believe in reverse Darwinism. This will become evident when you try to return to live beneath the surface of the water from which the RES was captured. Even the mildest forms of affliction will require 24 hour surveillance by trusted loved ones. Do not succumb to the pleasurable dreams you will likely have as you admire your new gills during REM sleep.

WELL, I CAN CONFIRM THAT DR. B'S PHOTOS WERE "ADEQUATE," EXCEPT FOR ONE. OF COURSE, THAT ONE WAS A TRUE WORK OF ART!!

" I've already been through some counseling, but it doesn't seem to help. Any advice would be appreciated. " Just give in and come over to the Dark Side.