Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Scotsman's Folly

Well, in a few more weeks, the Land Improvement Contractors (Dirt Workers -- for me and mine) expect to start clearing the back 10 acres for the hay pasture and Pecan Tree Orchard, then they will start on the .3 acre (maybe .5 acre) and .5 acre ponds. The ponds will be mostly excavations, which makes me happy, because I want to build up the whole front of the property for the house and barn, along with increasing the size of the water shed for the ponds.

My soon-to-be formally significant other has informed me that she and the children we don't have yet need more 4' swimming area, than the 4', 6', and 8' depths I was planning for both ponds. At least, I don't have to put my foot down on an expensive and high maintenance money pit of a swimming pool.

For the .5 acre Catfish pond, I'll go with a 3:1 slope to 8', everywhere. No spawning depths needed and I could increase the size of the pond, with 4' and 6' depths, later, if I wish. Both ponds will have 3:1 slopes.

For the HSB, CNBG, and RE .3 acre (maybe .5 acre) pond, behind the house, I'll go with half at 4' and half at 8' depths. I plan to cover the whole 4' area with pea gravel.

For this, I got the compromise of no swimming, until the water reaches 80F in the Spring. I'm still worried about disrupting the CNBG spawns, but compromise is what marriage is.

Hey, at least she is enthusiastic about moving out of Houston and into the sticks. Well, it's the new house and all the decorating potential that probably really got her interest. We'll see what happens, when I have to get ornery about more than a weekly trip to the grocery store or other shopping.

Stay tuned for pix updates to this thread, as construction starts and progresses...

Hmmm... soon I'll need to change my signature tag...

Is 6" deep enough for the pea gravel bed on the 4' deep end?

Bigmac I assume congratulations are in order. Look at these pics to give you an idea of what you are looking for. No need to cover the whole shelf 6in. deep. Make depressions and add a shovel of gravel to each.

That makes sense. I must admit that, at first, I was wondering how those sticks got on the moon.

I sure am glad Todd Overton pointed me to this forum. A year ago, some of my ideas would have ended up being costly mistakes to fix later. I'm reminded of one of the things my grandfather used to tell me.

"A dumb man makes a mistake, then goes out and makes the same mistake, again.
A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, then never makes the same mistake, again.
A wise man learns from the mistakes of others, so he never makes those mistakes in the first place."

Hello,
I have some questions.

1. How do you size the primary drain pipe you put through the dam, below the emergency spillway?

1a. For a.5 acre pond is a 6" diameter pipe sufficient?

1b. I assume I should run it down and beyond the backside of the dam, so I don't erode the back side of the dam?

1c. I'm planning the primary overflow pipe to be about 1 foot, below the emergency spillway. Is that copasetic?

2. My place is between Coldspring and New Waverly, Texas, off HWY 150. Where can I find about a 6' diameter 20' foot long fiberglass culvert to put in a dry creek to get to my future back pond, hay field, and Pecan orchard? Other materials/ideas will work, too.

Thanks In Advance...

Drain pipe size is based upon watershed acreage, annual rainfall, (IMO how heavily the rainfall is concentrated or spread out over the year), and other (lesser) facts like available space above the pipe before the dam would over run. Local NRCS office is a great place to have this calculated if they are cooperative (reportedly some are, some aren't). Texans near you could help you figure it out the best, but will need your watershed size.

Thanks Theo, I feel I have some good land improvement contractors working on this overflow pipe, but now I know what to think about and look for.

I just found a 34 foot long x 7 foot diameter x .25 inch thick fuel storage tank to put in the creek to get to the back of the property to build the back pond. $50.00 a foot and delivered for $125.00. I hope to get it delivered this Saturday.

With all the rain in East Texas, it may be too wet for the dirt workers to get in there. I am hoping the front will be dry enough to at least get that pond done, soon.

If your ponds are mostly excavations built on gently sloping terrain with small water shed you most likely don't need a pipe. if you decide to use a pipe 6 inches is too small because it will tend to clough up. The NRCS in my area uses 12 inch PVC with seep collers for smaller water sheds. If your only talking about 10 to 20 acre watershed this should be more than adequate. I installed 18 inch ADS plastic pipe in my pond it was cheaper than the 12 inch pvc. Good luck

bigmac:

WOW! $1825...I got a "pipe" 5.5 feet diameter, 22 feet long, 5/8" thick, delivered to my door for $150. That included diesel for the truck to haul it.

Course, it was work surplus, actually a retread curing chamber and I had to torch off the door, the end and remove all the light metal shields. Made a perfect culvert, but I couldn't have justified any REAL cash for it, like you.

That's cheap! The 5'5" tank was $40.00 a foot. I won't have to do any thing, but get them into the hole and fill it. The other deal I was looking at was an 8' dia. x 30' long /5 inch thick steel tank car for $145.00 a foot. They wanted $435.00 delivery.

Well, I ended up with an 8' diameter x 27' long x 5/16" thick carbon steel storage tank for my culvert at $60.00 a foot. Now, I won't have restriction in the creek that will cause both ponds to get flooded with overflow from the creek.

Now, the problem is that the drought has ended in the area, with over 12" of rain in 24 hours, 6" about 3 days later, then over 8", today, which is about 2 weeks from the last rain. I doubt they will be able to get in there with the dozers and excavator any time, soon. Clearing needs to be done to shoot the grades and figure out the size and best palcement of the ponds, plus figuring out where to put he dirt for the future house and barn. I'm bummed out, because, if the ponds could have gotten built, before these last 3 rains, they would be full now and I would be stocking fish. It looks like Southeast Texas is in for cold, wet winter.

Such is life...

Well, it's still raining, so no digging, yet. I have had the spare time, so I have created one heck of a Visio drawing. Oh well, at least the dirt workers and I will have a pretty picture to discuss, when the time comes.

Because all the rain is giving me the time, I am doing a couple of different drawings in Microsoft Visio. I'm designing my plan for the whole 14 acres, but right now working on the vision I will show to the dirt workers.

Since this pond is mostly an excavation, I can save money if we move less dirt. For a .5 acre pond, I am thinking about half of it at 4 feet and half of it at 8 feet. If we determine I can go up to a .75 acre pond, then I am thinking about a third at 4', a third at 6', and a third at 8'. Y'all's thoughts?

Still not dried out enough to dig a pond, but I have quit beating myself up, by counting the days, since I bought the place.

The Conference was great. I still chuckle at how lively and animated, well, passionate Bill Cody, Greg Grimes, and many, many others are about what they do for a living. Loving your job is so very, very important.

The Conference has made me think about things with different perspectives, which is good, but confusing. I have a budget, but I also want to avoid re-work, later, which actually blows the budget, anyway.

My most recurring questions are: do I need a primary overlfow pipe that takes water from the bottom, if I am aerating a .5 to .75 acre pond? Is it sufficient to just take the excess overflow off the top, through a primary pipe, with an emergency overflow a foot above the top of the primary? It could save me some money to spend on the aeration if I do this from the top, with seepage collars, of course.

Thanks in Advance...

BigMac you can have a top flow pipe with a connection collar on the lake side end and that will let you add more pipe when needed to go down into the water. The thing to think about and the problem with a straight top flow pipe is that you lose your best water and plankton bloom through it. Even if your top flow pipe only goes down 3 ft into the water that is a big improvement. It all depends on your pond and goals and its water flow through characteristics.

Good point. I knew I was missing something. Plankton Bloom out the overlow. Not want I want.

Pond 8' deep at the dam...
About this primary overflow, can I use ADS (plastic) corrugated (ribbed) pipe?
How would I attach the vertical piece to the horizontal piece to pull the water from about 2' off the bottom?.
How would I anchor the vertical piece?
If I need to run behind the dam more that 30', how do I connect two lengths of pipe together, end-to-end?

The ADS is available in a water tight model "WT" each joint has a belled end with rubber gasket. You greese the heck out of it and simple slide the joints together. They manufacture this stuff in Ennis texas, that's were I bought mine. You can find them on the web they have many elbows, tees, etc.

Thanks! I saw that place on my way to the Pond Boss Conference, up I45. Sounds like another good road trip for my dirt guru and me. I wouldn't mind hurting myself with lots more of that Woody's BBQ and Jerky Meat in Centerville, either. Overton's Fish Farm is on the way, too. Now, if it will just give me a break on the rain for about a month or two...

rockytopper, that's for straight-end connections, right? They sell an ADS Tee to attach 3 straights?

They will have everything you need make sure you pick the "WT" product line. The salesman you need to talk too is Chris Lewis 214-802-3316 good luck

http://www.ads-pipe.com/en/product.asp?productID=226

rockytopper,
Thanks! They really have a cool web site. I found the products. I also gave them my information and submitted an engineering request. I also found a local building supply that carries the ADS products, in case I can't make time to get to Ennis, when the time comes.

Thanks Again...

Well, Saturday morning, we looked at the site and felt another week of good drying weather would have us building the pond. Then we got almost another 3" of the wet stuff, by Sunday night.

Oh well, at least, by now, I know where all my drainage issues are and how water flows over every square foot of the property. It makes the plan better. I am no longer worried about not having enough watershed for the .5 to .75 acre pond. We can do some contouring to pick up another 5 acres of watershed, too.

Finally, a pond and other dirt work begins! I hope I don't jinx myself, but the weather is looking good -- hot and windy, with very little rain. They are starting on the dirt work this week. I'm still not sure the water table is below 8', but there's one best way to find out.

BigMac,

Congrats on getting going! I think I may be next on their list, so hurry up and get yours finished.

Send Derrick on down the road pointed North... tell him I killed a big rattler on my pond site a few days back so he doesn't have to worry about them any. Good luck to you!

Well, Meadowlark, I have been waiting for this moment for almost a year, so be patient a few more weeks. IMHO, we have the best and most honest land improvement contractors, in the area, doing our work for us.

By the way, have you heard the Spanish name for Meadowlarks? It's "Torilla Con Chili", because their song sounds like that's what they're saying. "Tortilla With Chili" For some reason, I think about that every time I see your screen name.

Yeah, I agree...but the pricing is suspect. I asked Joe for a price estimate with and without my participation with my small dozer....the estimate was higher if I helped out with the work just kidding of course. I've been searching this area a long time for honest, skilled contractors and believe have finally found them. The wait will be worth it.

By the way, we are getting a pretty good contingent of pond meisters around here. Tecohorn (who has been out to my place for some fish), Tim who recently had the coyote problems, Rick who has also been out to my place and is building north of me and others that I've been communicating with....friends all.

I hope we can all meet sometime and share pond experiences...and my place is always open for a visit.

"Torilla Con Chili", huh? I'll use that name for fun next time I'm in Mexico on a fishing trip...if it gets me in trouble I'll let you know.

Bigmac, Congratulations!!!! I was wondering if you had got started on your projects. Please hurry so I can start praying for rain again. It has gone from drowning to a dust bowl. Meadowlark it sounds like meeting is in order.

Hey, they told me they'd charge me double if I even tried to watch them do the work. My grandfather used to tell me, "Beware of any contractor that discourages you from asking lots of questions." After a year, these guys still encourage my questions and musings. I consider them both friends and frequent fish fries are in our futures. Derrick is going to point me to where he got his Blue Heeler and Red Heeler pups, when I am ready.

We've even come up with nicknames for each other. I call Joe "OB", for Old Buzzard, because he reminds me of that poster, from the 1970s, of the two buzzards, sitting in the dead tree, where one says to the other one, "Patience my a...! I'm going to kill something." With the weather we've been having, that situation is kind of a dirt workers life this year.

We'll definitely have to get all the local pondmeisters, together. I'd offer my place to meet, but it's pond and hay field, before shop and house. Single man prioritization, but I need the dirt from the pond to build up where the other stuff is going. We'll see how long I can stand living in a 5th wheel travel trailer.

Careful... they eat Meadowlarks in Mexico. They taste like Bob-White Quail. Not sure, but I think it's illegal to shoot them here.

I just changed my Display Name to the nickname I've been given around here. I hope I haven't been given that nickname, because I have a hard head, stir junk up off the bottom, and make the water cloudy.

Tim,
We'll both be praying for rain, after my pond is dug and the hay field is sprigged with Jiggs. With all this rain, we at least now know exactly what we need to do to get the most run-off into the pond. They're even putting in a fancy French Drain, to make the most of the water shed, by catching all the water off that Sugar Sand hill and redirect it into the pond.

Man, for these projects, we sure have to focus on the vision we have in our minds of the end result or it can get down-right discouraging.

I'm waiting for the pics you promised...

Those pics are coming. Need to get the area shredded, then they'll shoot grades, and they'll mark out the high edge of the pond. Not sure why orange can't be used, but they have these cute, little hot pink flags. Must have got a discount on them.

Sorry, for late update, but I was out of the Country for a while, then ill for 2 weeks. As it turns out, they got the front 3 acres cleared and then we got a 2" rain in about 2 hours. They had to move on to another job on higher ground, but plan to start my pond around the end of October.

Now, I am mostly working on utilities, so I can get moved up there and get this house in Houston on the market. I'll post pix, when the staking for the pond begins and follow it through to liming the bottom.

I have definitely found real good dirt workers that care about the quality of their work and are as honest, as they come. I'd be at a real disadvantage if I didn't have them doing this work. Yes, it's taking longer, than I hoped, but with the rains and the fact that good dirt workers are dirt workers you have to wait for, I am sure it will be worth the wait to have it done right, the first time. The truth is that if they didn't have lots of work on their plate, it would be a very bad sign, with more money and more work for me, later. I prefer to dig once and just enjoy for 40 or more years.;)

Sorry, still no pix of a pond being built. As it turns out I dodged a bullet on the marriage thing and have been focusing more on getting moved onto the place. Funding is tight, but not enough hot, dry weather to dig the pond area deep enough for the mostly excavated pond, anyway. I'll still have to live vicariously through you guys, for a while longer.

I have access to a 17 acre community lake and I think my dirt worker buddy might let me sneak onto his 2 acre pond/lake, occasionally. I'll still have fish to eat and be able to get on some water often enough to stop depression from creeping in.

Staying Level...

Well, I finally got a .4 acre pond built, filled and stocked with 100 six to 8" CC and a pound of FH. It took them about a week, but they're eating well. I still have to finish up the shoreline and build the dam up more.

I had sand down to about 7', so we dug a 3' x 3' trench down the middle to get enough clay to throw and pack on the sides. It loses about an inch of water every 2 days in this heat and drought. I'll see if I can figure out how to post some pics.

I have never figured out how to pack clay on the sides. How do you do that?

It helps to have a very good or just gutsy sheeps foot driver.

mudcat
Yes Post some pictures

Yeah, but how do you make it adhere to a semi vertical surface?

Using an track hoe, the clay was removed from the bottom trench and spread on the sides, all the way up to the future high water level. A sheep's foot roller would be best. I used what I had to pack material, which is a Kubota M7040, with cab, FEL and a 6' box blade on the back. Yes, I drove down and back up every inch of the small pond. The clay on the downhill side is about 10" thick. I packed it, twice, in a 6" and then about a 4" lift. The rest of the pond has clay packed about 6" thick.
I got to where I could use only the hydraulic shuttle lever, instead of the clutch, which made things much easier. It would be impractical to do this pressing a clutch pedal from forward to reverse, every 20'. It would be very time consuming on a larger pond, but, in my case, time is more available, than money, right now.
What counts is that the pond is holding water, very well. I also now feel much more comfortable with my cab tractor's slope capabilties. I only had to swallow repeatedly to get my stomach to go back down a time or two.

I'll post some pix, after I get the rest of the shoreline done and finish building up over the primary drain.

Oh, adhering to a semi-vertical surface only works well if there is enough moisture in both the surface being packed upon and the material being packed. I was packing as the track hoe was throwing and spreading. A fast 2" rain did cut some ruts in the sides, but none were over a few inches deep.
I may wish I would have waited to have the funds to pack it with a sheep's foot roller. Time will tell...
I've got good clay, about 4' down, where the second part of this pond system will be dug. I just have to wait, until I have the cash or the wife tells me to do it to get the material to build up for the new house, garage, and shop.

Mudcat
You have got love being able to do some of the work yourself.

Well, Otto, doing some of the work myself and making this new cab Kubota M7040, with FEL, start paying for itself was part of the deal I made with my wife to buy the tractor. I still have lots of dirt to move and spread. That tractor is a real work horse.
Also, the excavating of this little pond was done in trade for the rest of the large pines and oaks I have on the back ten acres, which will eventually become a hay field and pecan tree orchard. They track hoe operator is milling his own lumber to build his house. I'll see if I can get some pond pix posted, today, between polyurethane coatings on a desk I'm building.
So far, I'm losing about an inch a day in this drought and heat, which I think is to be expected. The rain has been falling all to the north and south of me. I think it will be next summer, before I know how much seepage I have and if I need to look into bentonite and/or DB-100. I hope I don't have to do that, because we use the pond for a swimming hole, almost daily, when it's warm.
The CC and FH are doing well. My girls can't believe they swim with those fish, when they see how aggressive they are feeding.

Got any pictures?

Here's 2 pix.




I spread German Millet and Common Bermuda seed out 10 feet all the way around the pond for erosion control. I still have to get the dirt above the primary drain up another foot, or so, and to finish the emergency spillway.

MudCat
Have you got thre dam raised above the pipe yet.

Otto,
Yes. The dam is now about 2.5 feet above the pipe and seeded with German Millet and Common Bermuda. To the left of the pipe is where I put in a 20' wide emergency spillway. The line of trees on the straight side of the pond are along a 7' deep dry creek that has a 302 acre watershed above me. It's about 90' from the start of my primary drain pipe to the dry creek.
I am now building up on the pond side of the dry creek and doing some dirt work on the other side of the creek to redirect creek water to that side should the creek overflow.
Sounds like I'm thinking right?

Eventually, there will be about a 1 acre pond built above this pond. I need the material for other projects, such as building up for the house, garage, shop, etc. Instead of paying for stump grinding, when I clear the back for hay and pecans, I plan to cut the stumps low and cover them with dirt.

Question... The primary drain has a tee on it with an extension that drops down 3' below the full water level of the pond. From what I read on this forum that was the way to keep the good water in the pond. Do I need to worry about it silting in under the pipe opening? I guess I could occasionally check the gap and manually scoop the material out?

Not sure what you are asking--can you send a picture.

Sorry, Otto,
I haven't been on the forum, until recently. I went into the pond and the 3 feet of pipe, that is below the water level, is 2 feet off the bottom.
As it turns out, I have plenty of watershed for this little pond. The overflow has had at least a trickle, since late September. I sense that a lot of suspended lime is going out the drain. On the brighter side, my dirt worker came out to look at it with me and, as I suspected, we can almost double the size of the current pond, before getting too close to the drainage creek or too much up the slope.
With 32.6" of rain, since last September, and water continuously seeping out of the hill above me, a bigger pond in the front is practical. My 42 GPM water well is also close enough to supplement, if necessary.
A bigger, excavated pond in the front will save me dollars on moving dirt from the future large pond excavation to the front for my shop and house, too. Stay tuned, when it gets dry enough to dig more. I'll be posting pics and asking forum members questions.

Good to have you back. The wet fall and winter has the most of the ponds in the country full like yours.

Keep us posted.

Otto