Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Central Illinois - New pond w/Pics!

Newbie here that is strongly considering building an 1/2 acre pond in Central Illinois. We have a natural spot to place a pond centered along an existing ditch that has some small springs leaking along the sides (approx 6ft below ground level). We dug a test hole and did find some gravel but that didn't seem to bother the gentleman that dug the test hole.

Add to this we have what I call yellow clay, so I'm concerned about all the comments about springs causing leaking issues. My pond builder sees no issues, but I am concerned.


Also is there any guidelines as to what it costs to build a pond of this size? He is offering to do it for under 10k.

I apologize if this is in the wrong area.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hey Boss. Welcome. Not sure about the gravel or springs except that the lower the springs are the more chance of the water pressure from the pond stopping or even reversing them. My guy told me springs are great at water level but other than that you don't want to hit them.As far as cost I'm also in Illinois (south central) I had about a one acre pond built for around 8000 that was also taking out some trees before they started. It was 100 an hour and he had two pieces of machinery running the whole time. So it was 200 an hour. Not sure if that helps but I'm sure you'll get some better advice than what i can give.

hey guys, good to see more Illinoisans joining up. Welcome to the forum, Bossone. I'm sure one of the pro's will be along shortly to get you answers to your questions.

Where are you guys at? I'm about 20 mins northeast of ST. Louis.

Thanks
-Skinny

Ramsey Illinois here.

I live in the godfrey/grafton/alton area.
Mailing address is alton, water comes from alton, pay taxes to grafton, although survey says godfrey, godfrey trash & sewer service.

I am actually wondering if my home is really a part of the united states, cuz none of it makes sense. I'm half in jersey county, half in madison. I can't call 911 cuz nobody agrees whose jurisdiction it is, I have to call the madison county sheriff.

Maybe we can meet up sometime and get some fishing done. If you don't mind that apparently i am from krypton
-Skinny

Well I know where to pay my taxes but for some reason you can send my mail to Ramsey or Bingham and I still get it. Yeah fishing sounds good but not at my pond, I'm still trying to get it to fill. Gone up some so far this year but the big rains seem to either go north or south. Sorry Bossone, well let this thread go so you can get your questions answered

Bloomington area.....

Good times. I'll probably be driving right up past you next week from stl to chicago.

in oklahoma i get $1.75 to $2.00 per cubic yard of dirt moved in most cases. most 1/2 acre ponds probably average $3,000 or less here. it all depends on whether or not i'd be nervous about the gravel. if i could dig thru it to a suitable material then no problem. the spring probably travels thru that gravel downhill but if you can dig thru it in the core to suitable soil then you can stop the flow at your core which would contain the spring to the pond on the downhill side. if this ditch you speak of goes uphill quickly from pond site you might be in luck. i'd also dig down in the upper part of the pond to see if the spring is flowing there. we call it spring chasing we are trying to establish were its coming from to make sure we can contain it in the pond. here they are like underground streams traveling thru sand or gravel i dont know about there. it may even be coming in from the sides but as long as the pond is lower than the source your fine. if i couldnt find the source its coming from i'd be very nervous. sometimes they seem to come straight up out of the ground if this is the case we move downhill to where the spring is at desired water level of pond or higher. good luck

Thanks for the replies.

We started digging today, so we will see what happens.

I'm sure this will be the beginning of all the questions I will ask.

Take photos and post them. We love these type of threads!

The adventure began on Tues (6/29) and they finished on Sat the 2nd. I talked about springs, well they are either that or it is ground water draining down to the area of the pond. They ended up going down 17ft (didn't have to go that deep)and found blue clay which they used in combination with the yellow clay. I certainly underestimated the amount of dirt coming out of that hole and we were lucky we had 2 acres that we raised 4-5 ft with all the dirt, saving the black dirt for the top. It actually looks fairly natural.

The water has already filled the bottom 8ft of the pond and continues to raise the water level. The thought is that the water is running downhill and exiting about 2 - 3ft below the projected water line. It would seem that it could fill the pond by itself given a few weeks.

Now the work begins on planting some sort of grass around the pond, so I will be looking for recommendations.

Again, I'll post pictures later. Also feel free to comment and offer advise.

Picture taken after tress were removed from ditch area



Same area, but showing the water runoff



Construction starting with (ground/spring)water starting to show up in quantity.



Bottom of the pond - 17 ft deep to water level



Dam construction



24 hours after bottom was complete, already filling nicely!



Taken this evening, I can't believe how fast it is filling just by the ground water.



One of several areas draining water into the pond!



Little over a week since it built.

I'm curious if this needs to be moved somewhere else in the forums? I was hoping for some feedback and since there hasn't been any, I am afraid it is in the wrong section of the forums.

I know that some express a concern about springs in a pond, but they are not always bad. It does not matter where the spring enters the pond, but rather the elivation of the top of the water that feeds the spring. Think of a spring as a tube that is connected to a bucket with the other und entering you pond. If the bucket sits higher than the top of the pond, it will likely not cause a leak unless the tube has more holes in it lower than your pond. If the water in the bucket always stays higher than your pond, it will also not cause a leak. If the water level in the bucket drops lower than your pond, then your pond will keep the bucket level at the same level as your pond and cause the pond level to drop. We hit quite a few springs when digging our acre+ pond and they have only provided benefits to us. A topography map of the greater area where you live can help you determine the odds for your pond, but either way, you'll find out soon. Good luck!

Nope, you're not in the wrong place, bossone. It just looks like maybe your post slipped by the people who are in the know on your questions.

As for springs, they can be both a blessing and a curse. As long as the water table is up, the springs may well continue to feed your pond. But if the water table drops during dry periods, just remember that a spring can turn into a drain and you can lose a lot of water pretty quickly. Esshup on the forum has that issue in his pond and struggles with maintaining depth every year.

As for any other questions, just hang on and maybe some experts will be along and see that you were still awaiting input. Sorry you slipped through the cracks on this, but it's bound to happen once in awhile with all the posts that happen on a daily basis.

At this point they are a blessing and continue to raise the level of the pond and hopefully since they are draining downhill, the water won't drain uphill.

Now that it is filling, what are my next steps? What things should I address now versus later?

Thanks for the input!

I may have misunderstood your situation, bossone. Are the springs IN the pond or outside and ABOVE the pond? If they're outside the pond and draining into it, that's a great situation and there shouldn't be any issue with the water running back out unless you have a way of altering the laws of physics at your place!

As for next steps, have you proposed a stocking plan for the group's input yet? If not, consider starting a new thread about your stocking ideas and get input on it. I know, and am sure you've seen, that there are some outstanding folks on here who have stocking down to an art form. Always a lot of great advice here. About the only thing I know is that you want to add your forage fish early and give them time to establish a population before you add predators.

What are you doing about structure/habitat in the pond? Are you done adding it, or do you plan to add more? If so, what are you adding? Remember that the type of structure should be fairly well matched to the fish you'll be adding, including your forage fish. Placement is not a haphazard affair, but rather something that should be thought out to ensure maximum benefit. There are a lot of great threads on habitat/structure, so do a search on those.

What other sorts of questions do you have in mind? What issues are you chewing on at this point?

I second getting the cover in there ASAP while you can still walk around. Cover for deeper, colder water during the winter as well.

PVC trees ASAP, palates, spawning bed substrate. what fish do you want? Aeration? Feeding? Pier while you can still put in concrete supports? seed the dirt to avoid runoff/washout? The list of things to do now is long, esp with pond filling fast.

If you notice on the last picture I am getting a "film" on the surface of the water. I contributed it to the ground water running down over the clay, but that may not be the case. It is almost covering the entire water surface.

Is it something I should be worried about and how is the way to address it?

Bossone, nothing to worry about yet. It is a combination of things, all natural. Your pond is fresh and the newly exposed nutrients are producing an algae bloom, plus there are natural oils in the fresh dirt. Combine the main ingredients with the recent high heat/low wind conditions, throw in a couple cloudy days, and you get the slime cocktail film you're seeing. In a 2-4 weeks, you will have a new beneficial bacteria colony munching on the stuff and eliminating it.

Wow, that is some pretty blue and clear water! Like everyone else said "get your structure in before its to late"!

Woohoo! I love construction pics. Keep em coming! That is some really cool water color you have there. Way to make this happen Boss. Not even a month ago you were "strongly considering" it and already you're at what looks like almost half full. Nicely done!

Wish my project moved that fast...

Well I got lucky; the contractor was available immediately and there was enough ground water to fill it almost half way. However with all the heat and conveniently missing every storm since, the ground water has almost dried up.

So it's a nice break which will allow me to get the structures in before it's to late.

Before you place any structures in the pond you want to start even back closer to the beginnning of the process and come up with your game plan. Things kind of moved fast, but I am sure you have some ideas (and daydreams at work) for what you are going to use the pond for. Lets get this all figured out:

1. List in order of importance and in as much detail as you would like (the more detailed you get the more detailed we can get) everything you want to use this new water hole for.

2. For the fish, what type of fishing do you want to do? How soon do you want the fish to be ready to catch? Who will be doing the most fishing, how often do you anticipate they will be fishing, are you planning on eating fish, if so how often and how many? Basically in detail describe everything about the fish and fishing that you want to do with the pond.

3. Something you could do right now is to go to a bait shop and purchase 1 lb or several dozen fathead minnows to stock immediately. They will reproduce yet this summer and provide great forage for whatever you decide to stock for fish. They also will keep the mosquitos and insects in check while your waiting for fish.

As you can see in the pictures, the pond is set perfectly (on 5 acres) to allow viewing from the house, so my first objective was to provide ornamental landscaping and to to attract wildlife for viewing. We have deer that come through and I had a thought of creating environment for pheasants and quail (there are none around), so we enjoy seeing the wildlife. Having a place to fish (for pleasure/for food)is secondary



As I said above, fishing is a secondary goal. I want to have place where the grandkids (one one now and she is too little) can come over and fish, plus having a place my son in law and I can go out and casually fish. Naturally if we catch something big enough to eat, then by golly I want to eat it. So in reality it won't be heavily fished especially to start and as the fish get bigger, then I suspect we will fish it more. Still only a few times a month. So there is no race to catch fish. Stock what I can this fall and then add to it next spring.

Since I'm not an avid fisherman, I really don't have much of a clue as to what to stock it with. I was thinking catfish and some bass, but open to suggestions.


What else can I tell you or that I missed?

Ornamental Landscaping is very fun and wildlife viewing is even funner. For landscaping around the pond your imagination and budget can just roll along at whatever pace you want.

For wildlife viewing you will want to get an aeration system installed in your shallow water about 6 feet deep to keep open water all winter long along the edge for ducks, geese, deer, etc. You also may want to consider building a floating island/ dock of some sort to give em a safe place to rest during the summer. Wood duck boxes, goose nest, bird feeders, etc will really bring em in good too.

For fish I would stock fathead minnows and/or golden shiners right away ASAP to clean up the mosquitoes and insects larvae and also to provide a boost for the gamefish. This fall I would get 50 LMB, 50 CC, 250 Hybrid Bluegill, and 250 Bluegill. Any size you want to get is fine. I would recommend feeding the fish by hand one 50 lb bag of purina mills gamefish chow per month starting the first of May, and going all the way into October. If you dont want to feed the fish (you would be missing out on some seriously awesome wildlife viewing) you can stock the bluegills and hybrid bluegills this fall and wait until next summer to stock small yoy largemouth bass and fall to stock the catfish.

Your hybrid bluegill and channel catfish will be ready to eat at the end of 2011 and really ready to eat in 2012. I would harvest 25 catfish in 2012 and replace them in the fall. Plan on eating and stocking 25 catfish every year.

I would install an aerator centrally located in the deep and run it from April to October. You can run the shallow one all year long, but the deep one only during the warm season. You can run both lines from the same compressor- Vertex Air One Plus. Doing this from the very beginning of the pond will help the pond live alot longer and help your water quality tremendously.

For fish structures in your pond I would place gravel, rocks, riprap and boulders, and then would place just one big fishing reef somewhere. 3 mossback fish racks, or 5 porcupine attractors, or 3 honey hole trees, or a handful of cedar trees, hedge trees, or any trees you have laying around. Just one big structure is all I would do in your pond for your casual fishing situation.

You need to have a dock too. A pond without a dock is like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with the peanut butter.

Enjoy

That might change. When we bought our pond property I hadn't fished (in fresh water) for over 20 years. I think you'll find that fishing your own pond is very relaxing and enjoyable, there is something about catching fish in a pond that you own that is very different that fishing in public waters.

You are correct, there is a big difference in loading up your equipment and going somewhere versus fishing in your back yard!

bossone,

just by looking at the pictures it appears you have a sandy lean clay which will hold water. it also looks like soil that will erode easily. being possibly spring fed when it gets full it may overflow continuously at times. is there a drain pipe in this pond to prevent the spillway from eroding?

Yes there is a 12 inch, plus and emergency overflow.

I first thought it was spring fed, but I'm not sure anymore. The ground water has slowed way down with all the high temps and lack of rain. We got an inch the other day and it looks like it was running a little stronger. Naturally every dang storm has went around us so we are missing out on the big rains, which may be a blessing.

If you notice the sides a bit steeper than what I've seen in other pictures, so I can see it eroding some.

its hard to keep some types of soil from eroding but that pipe will make a huge difference in the long run. it also looks like the builder put the topsoil back on top where it belongs this wiil also help grass to grow which is the key to erosion control. i think the pond looks good

Thanks..... I still am nervous about the transition between the water level and the natural slope of the land around it. I suspect I'll have some more dirt work to do once I actually see where the water level shakes out. Part of it was to keep the dam low enough so we could have a view from our back yard. Still we are excited about having it.

I can't thank everyone enough for your help and guidance!

Well there goes 2 pounds shiners into their new home. It wasn't long after that we had a crane show up and I'm sure he had a nice lunch on the few that didn't make it. I'm not sure where he came from as we don't have many around here, but nevertheless he found us.

But we now have fish..... and frogs!!!!!

Not sure where you got your shiners from but I hope you trust your source or your sorted those before you tossed them in.


I would make a not to sort my FHM as they tend to have surprise fish in them more than shiners.

Just want to let you know as in many cases it has been shared that people have ended up with the wonderful Bullhead in their pond and not have any idea where it could have came from.

Just wanted to let you know and I am sure you will get more feedback from the experts on this mater.

Thanks

if they didnt have a packer and just used a dozer and trackhoe you can bet on 5 to 10% shrinkage of your dam. when using a trackhoe and dozer only you shuold add 10% so when it gets done settling it will be where you want it. for example if desired dam height is 10 ft tall make it 11 ft tall and when it gets done settling it will probably only be 10 ft tall. i will add 3% even when i use a packer to be on the safe side. they may have already done this i'm just brainstorming in a brain with limited capacity.

i said 10ft dam height but you must add the depth of your core in there also. 10 ft dam height with 5 ft core depth would need 1.5 ft of extra dirt on top with slopes that match the top. dont just add dirt to top. make slopes match which requires extra dirt on slopes. you are not actually adding more dirt or more cubic yards to dam. it would be the same amount of dirt using a packer and not having to add any. you just didnt get all the air and voids out of the dam with the dozer so your allowing for that. a pickup or car will pack better than a dozer

They never used a packer, just the dozer and hihoe. From an untrained point of view it certainly looks to be solid.



This is a view of the dam looking from the North. I have taken 4-6 inches off the top of the damn to make reduce the slope just a bit. If you notice to the left there is a deep ditch (12ft) and where the flags are is going to be a rainbow bridge so we can walk from the back yard up on the dam.

If it settles, then I'll put more dirt back in and drive over with the our SUV. I will be tilling it up once last time and sowing some grass seed alter this fall.

After fighting the drought after we built our pond this past summer I was afraid it would take forever for it to fill, but surprisingly as of last night it is full pool for the first time!

This picture was taken 11/27 and as you can see we had a long ways to go before the pond would be filled. You can also see the blue spruces/maples/tulip trees I planted.

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This was taken today, full pool and it still filling from my small catch basin at the bottom of this picture. My overflow is working as it should. As you can see the ice has almost disappeared

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Again taken today and shows my rainbow bridge I built this fall (railings this spring) and a 1925 windmill next to the pond. My catch basin/tile is between the two blue spruces in the back which is a low area. My only dissatisfaction is the height of the ground as compares to water level at the back of the pond. It would be nice to have had more trimmed off, but then it would of had a domino effect all the way back to the property line.

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Now the fun begins, stocking it (with the help of Nate), sowing more grass, adding more structures, and a dock. And here's hoping it holds water!!!!!

Looks great, congrats on the full pool!

Yes, Very nice! Happy full pool

Looks great and a nice job on the bridge.

That really is a nice job---good work

Just curious? Why didn't you fill where the bridge is? What's the bridge over..? Place looks great beautiful symmetry with the house in the background..

Looks awesome. That windmill is very cool, is it original to the property?

The bridge is over a ditch that is about 12 ft deep and carries run off from several acres and there was no way to dam it up and tie it into the pond. Even if we had been able to, I think it would have been too close to the house.

I have always wanted a windmill and I found this one on a farm Wisconsin and I thought it would fit in well with layout. I had thought about (and still could) using it to aerate the pond.

Overall very happy with how it looks, but the work is just beginning.

As the ground starts to dry up a bit around the pond, I am noticing that there is quite a bit of water being soaked up around the pond. As this picture shows the back bank is wet up 2-3 feet



And here the ground is wet an average of 4ft and in the one place even more. Maybe part of this extended area is due to ground water?



So my first question is this normal?

Secondly when it was first built I noticed I had a lot of ground water helping to fill the pond and I see places on one side of the pond where the ground is wet and you can tell it is to to the water table.

What is interesting in the next two pictures is the incoming water flow and then you can see the over flow. It has ran for several days with what looks like the output more than the input.





So seeing this makes me think I'm getting water from the ground/banks and may have an issue later in the summer when the surrounding ground dries up.

Thoughts on my two questions?

I tend to agree with your concern. Especially in the 2nd picture of the 4 set. IMO well lined good clay banks that are well compacted should not normally have that amount or degree of wet areas, some water absorption, but not normally quite that much at least in my experience.

In the 1st of 4 pictures, who says water does not travel up hill as evidenced by the wet banks above the waterline?

No problem with water level now in spring when ground is saturated with water. But when things become good'n dry you may see significantly lower water levels. Time will tell therest of the story. Your pictures will be good to show to the contractor if and whenever you contact him. Some contractors are not quite so eager to come back for fixes compared to when they were interested in digging the pond.

move back about away from the pond edge about 25 feet and dig a small hole straight down, observing and noting the amount of moisture in the soil. When you get down to about 2 or 3 feet, make sure the hole is fairly clear of loose soil and let it sit for a day...or even a few hours. (put a piece of 3/4" plywood or something similar to keep peep's and critters from falling in)
We're looking for moisture in the surrounding soils, in areas that would not be affected by the pond, but close enough to be considered the same potential water table as the pond footprint.

If you take the second picture in this last group, the ground rises fairly well and has always been dry, other than next to pond. It originally was wet there just about where It is 6-8 ft damp. The opposite side has a similar slope but there is section that extends back 20 plus feet and the ground is all wet, so I'd say the water table there is high or it has a place where ground water is flowing.

I hope that all make sense. I'll take a picture of that side and post it.

If the pond had a good clay lining, then the water shouldn't migrate thru it. It looks like capillary action in soil. I see that in my pond, but it's a groundwater pond dug in sand.

Bossone
I Would think Berttski has the right Idea. Dig some holes all around the pond close to the water, in the wet spots and also where the dirt is dry. That will give us more information to process.
The pond continuing to fill from ground water could, as Bill Cody says, cause some concern if and when the weather gets good and dry. That question will only be answered with some time maybe later this summer.
Let us know what you find out from the holes you dig.

Dug the holes on the north side (which is the wettest) about 2 ft deep. Soil was moist and after an hour water was already seeping in. This hole was 35 ft away and then dug 2 others, one stayed moist and the other one was wet but hadn't filled up.

Overflow is running so ground water has to be feeding it.

South side is dry and normal moisture.

I contacted the guy who dug my pond and here is his response to the pictures.

Pond is looking good. It is possible the water table is that high, a large number of ponds we do wick up the bank. There is no concern on my part for the pond drying out.

He is going to come out and look later in May. Thoughts from the dirt guys?

Additional information.......

the area where I dug the holes, I also planed some fruit trees. At 3 inches of rain the whole area has water standing. Two of the trees will need to be moved. The ground water in that area is very high and flowing into the pond.

Also in another area on the north side of the pond. 15 ft away from the pond and higher than the pond water level, water is running out of the ground.

Water moving into your dug holes could be water from the pond and/or from just 'regular' ground water moving toward the pond. ONLY time during dry summer weather will provide a good answer to your water movement concerns.

I get nervous and doubtful when some one says about the dam or the walls of a dug pond - ""They never used a packer, just the dozer and hihoe. From an untrained point of view it certainly looks to be solid.""

Looking solid is a whole lot different that being solid and the lifts being compacted together enough to hold water well throughout the basin. Water can even seep between loosely compacted lifts especially if sandy, porous soils were in the lifts. Loose soils leak, even packed soils will leak some. The degree of leakage depends on a lot of things. Soil science is complex that is why there are specialists in the field. Water moves due to a force - pressure or gravity. As I see it, small leaks provide a pathway for moving water. Moving water has energy and that moving water energy tends to incease the size of the leak over time unless something fills the void and slows the leak. Sometimes one gets lucky and a small seepage/s gets filled with clay particles and seals; most often not, due to the moving water, loose soil feature. IMO there is not a lot that can be easily and cheaply done once a pond is leaking esp a larger pond. One has to live with the leaks. It is hard to 'divorce a pond'.

I'm confident that it is ground water and is flowing towards the pond. The key will be when it dries up.

I found it interesting when he said all their pond wick. I hope it finall stops.

Well the adventure continues as today was the day we stocked the pond with 100 BG, 250 HBG, and 25 LMB!



And thanks goes to these find gentlemen who don't need any introduction to most of you, but this is Nate (n8ly) and Justin Herman.



They were super helpful and even was kind enough to bring me bill to boot. Seriously I appreciate not only them, but everyone here who has answered all of my dumb questions. Trust me, there will be more to come.

Again, thanks Nate and Justin for your help and look forward to working more with you in the future!

I thought I'd update this thread since Google Maps has an update satellite image, so now I can show you what all we have done.

This is the old image and shows you what I started with:



This is the updates image:



If you read back into this thread you will see I had concerns with possible leakage and a high ground water table. After the spring rains, we were at full pool and the groundwater kept the overflow running. As the summer passed, we had very little rain, so I expected it would drop some. That some turned into about a 5ft drop and I noticed on the far side of the dam, water trickling through the ditch. That leads me to think we have an issue and I'm not sure what to do. Certainly some seepage would be acceptable, but losing 5 ft of water makes me real nervous.

In the this picture I tried to outline some of the areas I have talked about and give everyone a good idea as to what I'm facing.



All this has lead me to a ton of questions I'll put in other areas of the forums, but if anyone has advise, I'm open to it. I decided not to stock any additional fish until I see if we can manage this water lost and if the fish I have survive the winter.

Beautiful Boss! Nice job!

If it's a groundwater pond, and it doesn't have a good compacted clay liner, then I'd say the water level drop was normal for last year.