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#219327 - 05/30/10 11:36 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jims place]
jeffhasapond Offline
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Registered: 07/28/06
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Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
Scott, I'm definitely going with infra-red and a security cable.

Paul, I agree with Cecil, very clever idea!

Jim, fake cameras may play a part as well. I really want to catch an idiot trespassing on camera. There is one group of losers that live down the road. They have been raided multiple times for drugs (Meth). The "neighbor" blamed the activity (except the fence cutting, Atv riding and fishing) on them. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not. One way or another I want to get proof and the prosecute them.
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#219331 - 05/30/10 11:42 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jeffhasapond]
esshup Offline
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JHAP, the camera will have a looped area that a security cable can be passed thru and locked to the tree, but it's only thin plastic and probably be cut with a pair of wire cutters. That's the reason for putting it in a steel security box. Look at that link that I posted. They have security boxes. Make the fake camera harder to steal as well, the longer they are trying to get it, the more pics you will get.
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#219333 - 05/30/10 11:48 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: esshup]
catmandoo Online   content
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Like Paul, we used fake cameras out in the open when we were having our serious problems. They were up high where nobody could easily fool with them. The real cameras were very well hidden, as was the VCR.
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#219334 - 05/30/10 11:49 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jims place]
catmandoo Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jims place
I plan on putting a few of these at the main entrance to my property, along with the signs. All will be in clear sight of anyone coming down the drive.

http://www.hughessecuritysolutions.net/Fake_Security_Cameras_From_Hughes_Security_Solutions_s/4.htm


I'm placing an order for some of the signs and stickers now. Thanks for the link.
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#219338 - 05/30/10 12:10 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: catmandoo]
The Pond Frog Offline
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Registered: 01/25/10
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Loc: NorCal
That is a sad statement of the world we live in today. Sadly I had this discussion with DIED when visiting his pond for his boat vandalism. He mentioned he was at your place checking things out. I said I am shocked that your place was not being raped and trashed. Absentee ponds are just victims these days unless you have absolutely trustworthy neighbors. You do not.

10 maybe 20 years ago these were not even issues. People were just a bit more courteous and respectful, drugs were not prevalent. I would have come unglued if some idiot showed me some photo of my precious fish being hung out to dry. Cutting down fences and atv'n would have been fuel to the fire. That's just inconsiderate garbage, not neighbors.

Just like with DIED if I can be of any help you let me know. I can drop some LMB in there to grow out. I could also make an occasional visit and maybe get someone in the act. I caught an Oxycontin dealing trepassing no good at another pond I manage. He was also responsible for many burglaries and property thefts. I personally wanted to let the air out of his tires, have him arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Have his vehicle towed, impounded. HOA were afraid of retailiation and just had him tagged and identified with threat of all of the above if he returned. Was mixed feelings among the residents, many wanted the Frog plan implemented. I just want along the the HOA.

Like I said, I am busy as hell, but I do make the rounds up there. And any presence, especially if people know someone shows up unannounced to check on pond fairly often is not only a way to catch someone, but a deterent as well. I respect the self restraint you showed. You have my heartfelt sympathy and Pond Boss brother support.

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#219339 - 05/30/10 12:13 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: The Pond Frog]
jeffhasapond Offline
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Thank you PF. I will discuss this with you in more detail. I'd love to have you stop by our place anytime.

DIED speaks very highly of you and that is a golden recommendation in my book.
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~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
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#219340 - 05/30/10 12:19 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jeffhasapond]
The Pond Frog Offline
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Would be my pleasure. I know I come across as an opinionated jack ass at times but that is just forum fun. In real life I look out for my ponds, their owners and everyone near and dear to me. I'm not looking to make money off of you, DIED can vouch for that. Maybe we can do some business, maybe not. But I'll be there for you when I can if you need me, no matter what. The line has been crossed, I would think it will be recrossed but now you know.

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#219343 - 05/30/10 12:31 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: The Pond Frog]
jeffhasapond Offline
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I very much appreciate that PF.

We are going to do business in the future, I've got a shopping list.... lillies, perhaps some LMB, I'm considering Sacramento Perch, you get the idea.

Having multiple people stop in at my place at random times will IMHO be a real deterrent.

I look forward to meeting you in the near future.
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JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#219345 - 05/30/10 12:43 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jeffhasapond]
The Pond Frog Offline
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Multiple people at random times letting it be known the party is over. I'll talk to you at length in person for privacy concerns. No worries about the future, immediate concern is security. Talk to you soon. Next time your up maybe I can visit you at last and finish fixing DIED's Jeanie. I'm up in Lotus Wed for tint and Apple Hill week after for follow up lilies and marginals. And I work heavy El Dorado Hills and Latrobe. Just let me know.

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#219351 - 05/30/10 02:51 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: The Pond Frog]
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Think about sending the neighbor a bill for the two large LMB that he stole.

$100 per fish. Heck, maybe $200-300 per fish if they were over 5 lbs.

That also allows you to start getting the monetary values of his crimes into more toothy legal matters.


Edited by Sunil (05/30/10 02:52 PM)
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#219353 - 05/30/10 03:18 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: Sunil]
andedammen Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sunil
Think about sending the neighbor a bill for the two large LMB that he stole.

$100 per fish. Heck, maybe $200-300 per fish if they were over 5 lbs.

That also allows you to start getting the monetary values of his crimes into more toothy legal matters.


Neighbor's nephev I think would be the right adress if you where to send a bill.
You can't bill a man for reciving a mms picture.
Anyhow this neighbor dosen't sound to clever, so I can totally understand JHAP's reservation to not get deeper in to a war with him.
You can win a lot of batlles, still loose the war because you are not on the batllefield (not living on sight).
So you keep wining all the legal batlles, but gaine nothing but frustration.
So you have to find a way to win their respect out off court, wich is a long time solution.
Thats my experience with stupid people anyways.
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#219354 - 05/30/10 04:01 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: andedammen]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: andedammen

You can win a lot of batlles, still loose the war because you are not on the batllefield (not living on sight).
So you keep wining all the legal batlles, but gaine nothing but frustration.


A very wise statement Ande!

On a similar vein I have a retired cop behind me that is quite the whiner. He's whined about the sound of one of my diaphragm compressors, and the sound of a trash pump I left running after sunset. He must have quite an ear as he lives at least 300 feet behind me!

I could have told him tough *itties, but I didn't. grin Instead I listened to him and assured him I would take measures to stop the noise. The diaphragm compressor wasn't a big deal as I was going to change it out for a rotary vane compressor, which is much quieter. And there really wasn't a need to run the trash pump at night so I only ran it in the daytime from then on. Actually I use electric sump pumps now for draining the back three ponds so no more noise at all.

But here in lies the advantage: It's possible if someone tries to cross his property to get to mine (trespassing) he'll question them and put a stop to it. Also one never knows if you will need your neighbor as an ally so it's best to keep them happy. I.e the county or someone comes up with some bullcrap tax or something, or someone wants to put a nasty trailer in next to my property.

Of course I know Jeff's situation is different to some extent. IMHO his dumb neighbor is not the thief, and can be dealt with diplomatically as Jeff as done. I would make a WAG that the thieves are the meth dealers. But then again the nephew sounds a little suspicious too.

On another note someone brought up fingerprints. My brother had a break in where his laptop computer was stolen. When the cops came my brother pointed out it was obvious the blinds were parted, probably because one of the thieves was a look out. Anyway my brother asked if they could get fingerprints off the blind. The response with a groan was, "This isn't CSI," and they didn't bother. Either prints are not as easy to get as they are portrayed on CSI or these cops were very apathetic.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (05/30/10 10:33 PM)
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#219362 - 05/30/10 04:59 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: Cecil Baird1]
The Pond Frog Offline
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JHAP can go many different routes. To either extreme. He can forgive and forget, be a friend to the neighbor, get welcome tattooed on his back and lay down and get walked on.

Or he could go postal/rambo and visit his neighbor with guns a blazin.

I'm sure he has had many soul searching hours thinking of the best solution in a truly can't win situation. I guess the best cliche hear it's hard to fly like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys.

There is a probable best path, and that is where I will point. And you can say well, he does not live there, but DIED lives by his pond, what good did that do? And JHAP doesn't live there, so you have to deal with what is here today.

With every law enforcement agency getting gutted and budgets slashed with manpower following, you need a major crime just to get someone to consider fingerprints. That is not real life either. Nor is sending a bill for fish.

Milk has been spilled, you put it in a safer container. Horse has left the barn. You shut the barn door, try to secure it and get another. Maybe a younger, cooler donkey. You move on with attempts at safeguards to prevent reoccurance. You become vigilant. Not a vigilante. You inform all parties involved property is being monitored, and anyone caught doing anything will get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. You don't blame anyone, start a war or do anything without careful consideration.

Once DIED calmed down, he decided to just bring his boat in and out for now. The best plan is the well thought out without anger plan. A plan for the future. Like it or not those neighbors might be around for some time. That is one of the bad cards dealt. Diplomacy is not one of my strong suits, but threat assessment and pond guarding is.

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#219381 - 05/30/10 09:04 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: The Pond Frog]
adirondack pond Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
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JHAP I just got back from the cabin and read about your tresspass problems, does the phrase "Punji pits" ring a bell.
It really frosts my shorts when I hear about these low lifes who should be hung from a tree by their cajones.
It appears that you have a plan to deal with it by all the good info that others have given you.
I would add a couple of things, like long target pratice every day your there so that the neighbors are aware that you are armed and ready, also here is a low cost sensor, maybe get a dozen and place around your property to spook any violators in addition to the infrared game cameras you will get.
Good Luck and shoot straight. grin

http://cgi.ebay.com/Home-Infrared-Securi...=item2a02902dec
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#219385 - 05/30/10 09:42 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: adirondack pond]
Rainman Offline
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Jeff, look at tihe bright side.... They haven't fenced off YOUR property, blocked all access to it, or enlisted the local prosecutor to charge you with trespassing, like my fine neighbors have............yet!!!
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#219386 - 05/30/10 09:46 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: Rainman]
ewest Offline
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frown -- frown -- mad

How did the guy take the news from you to stay off ?

Sorry I have been out. JHAP call the law and make a report but just the facts. Do not accuse the guy juat tell the facts and ask them to check around.
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#219404 - 05/30/10 11:47 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: ewest]
jeffhasapond Offline
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Paul and PF you guys have pretty much summed it up. It comes down to this, I have no proof that the neighbor was involved in the theft so on that front it would do no good to accuse him or confront him about it. He lives there and I don't, until I have a game cameras and a surveillance system I'm pretty much a sitting duck.

I spoke to him quite plainly that I wanted the fence repaired and that the property was off limits.

I also told him that I would be installing a security camera system.

As you stated PF, I shall be vigilant but not a vigilante.


To answer your question Eric the neighbor actually had a hurt look on his face when I told him to put the fence back up and to stay off the property. He did not argue and he assured me that as soon as the weather cleared (it had been raining for a couple of days and was raining on us during this conversation) he would put the fence back. I was not confrontational and I took the time to explain to him that the pond was in poor condition when we bought the place and that it took four years to get it to the point that it is today. I told him that the LMB that his nephew put on a stringer were probably dead by now. I told him that when bought the place we never caught any LMB larger that 14 ounces and now we have them where they should be at several pounds in size. I didn't owe him this explanation but I figured I wanted him to appreciate the effort that we have put into this place.

A mans land is his land, this property is not huge, the pond is not gigantic, but dammit it's my land and I'm not about to throw up my hands and surrender.
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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

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#219413 - 05/31/10 12:04 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jeffhasapond]
esshup Offline
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JHAP:

It sounds like you handled it very well, and you are taking steps to try and stop it from happening again.

Now call the sheriff and let us know what they say! No need to say who you thought did it, just tell them the facts.

There's no way in he.. that I would have been that calm in handling the situation.
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#219416 - 05/31/10 12:17 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: jeffhasapond]
The Pond Frog Offline
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Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Paul and PF you guys have pretty much summed it up. It comes down to this, I have no proof that the neighbor was involved in the theft so on that front it would do no good to accuse him or confront him about it. He lives there and I don't, until I have a game cameras and a surveillance system I'm pretty much a sitting duck.

I spoke to him quite plainly that I wanted the fence repaired and that the property was off limits.

I also told him that I would be installing a security camera system.

As you stated PF, I shall be vigilant but not a vigilante.


To answer your question Eric the neighbor actually had a hurt look on his face when I told him to put the fence back up and to stay off the property. He did not argue and he assured me that as soon as the weather cleared (it had been raining for a couple of days and was raining on us during this conversation) he would put the fence back. I was not confrontational and I took the time to explain to him that the pond was in poor condition when we bought the place and that it took four years to get it to the point that it is today. I told him that the LMB that his nephew put on a stringer were probably dead by now. I told him that when bought the place we never caught any LMB larger that 14 ounces and now we have them where they should be at several pounds in size. I didn't owe him this explanation but I figured I wanted him to appreciate the effort that we have put into this place.

A mans land is his land, this property is not huge, the pond is not gigantic, but dammit it's my land and I'm not about to throw up my hands and surrender.


That is the same attitude I had with DIED's boat. Never surrender. You handled perfectly so far. In fact you must be a freakin diplomat. Maybe the moron neighbor really did not know any better. I and you both know he does now. That is all you can do. He should have known better but maybe did not, what can you do if you are not the might Kreskin. I wouldn't trust a tweeker as far as I could throw him, into a bottomless pit preferably. That would be my odds on favorite for theft. Getting confrontational is counterproductive and not really very prudent. Get the word out as you did, place will be heavily guarded, under survelliance. People like me pop in that have never been there before and say if I catch anyone here I shoot first, then call the cops and prosecute to the fullest extent. You can put it off on a unfriendly third party. Me. I ain't no ones neighbor. And I take my duties very seriously. It does not matter if it is 1/100th of an acre with a kiddie pool on it. Your property is yours. Next time you talk you say, I have begin to hire people who are not as friendly and forgiving as I am. In fact, they scare me, but apparently that is what I need. The Mr. Rogers attitude and goodwill have been abused and are in the same place as the big LMB. Gone.

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#219444 - 05/31/10 11:47 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: The Pond Frog]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Jeff,

Sorry I didn't see this sooner... And sorry to hear about this! These things really tick me off and I have been in your shoes before. No fun! You did the right thing by not lashing out on the guy. That would have gotten you charged and him with the high ground. However, a nice 30-30 round to the head might be good medicine for this guy! Being a police officer, let me give you the best advice I can.

First, I would report the incident to the local law enforcement agency that covers your property. Most likely a sheriff's department that covers what ever county your land is in. Even if you don't have proof that you owned the things that were stolen, nor serial numbers you still want to report the burglary. Not all law enforcement agencies are as service oriented as the one I work for, but if they're anything close to how mine operates, you will get a positive response. Keep in mind, many burglaries occur where there is no proof of the claimed property being stolen was actually stolen. Yours is no different and that shouldn't be a problem. If it is, at least you got the deputy or officer out there and as others have already said, allowed your neighbor to see law enforcement presence. If it was me taking the report, I'd be knocking on your neighbor's door to do a canvass and interview of him as a possible suspect shortly after I was done taking the report. If this guy is a big enough dummy to show you photos of the bass he stole from you and admit to ripping down your fencing, he may just say incriminating things to the deputy or police officers. Criminals are often pretty damn dumb...

Second, while the deputy or officer is out there taking the burglary report, you can also ask for their advice based on the laws of California and the code of what ever county your land is in. In order to prosecute for trespassing, most states require land to be posted a specific way. I would ask the deputy or officer what that way is and then you know what you need to do to get your land posted properly so that you can successfully prosecute this turd or any other jerk who is trespassing. My experience with different states shows that the laws can be very different about what is considered properly posted land. Most states have different forms of trespassing. Here in Virginia there are several types. The penalties are much less severe for unposted land and fairly severe for land that is posted(correctly).

If you just don't want to be bothered with reporting the burglary and subsequent theft, I would at least make contact with your local law enforcement agency and obtain advice from them for properly posting your land and what "proof" they feel would be necessary to make an arrest for trespassing. You may also be able to issue what we call a "trespass letter". Where I work, the process of going about doing this is fairly simple. You write up a letter with your turd neighbor's name and info in it. You then send this letter to him via certified mail and in that letter you tell him he is not welcome on your property and that he will be prosecuted for trespass if found on your land. When he signs for said letter, the post office will then give you a receipt giving you proof your turd neighbor received it. You then keep a copy of the letter and receipt for your records and deliver a copy of the trespass letter and the receipt of delivery to your local law enforcement agency for their records. Absolute best way to prove he knew he was not welcome and makes conviction much easier... I'd check with your local law enforcement agency first though to make sure of their policies regarding this.

One last thing to keep in mind is that most states do not allow warrantless arrests of misdemeanor crimes not committed in an officer's presence to be made. This basically means that unless the law enforcement officer actually observes the trespassing taking place, they cannot make an arrest. You would have to go obtain a warrant and then the officer could make the arrest with said warrant. Look into how California does this. Here in Virginia you'd have to go in front of a magistrate(special judge) and swear to the facts of the case to prove probable cause exists that your neighbor or someone else trespassed on your land. If the magistrate finds probable cause exists, he issues the warrant. Then you notify the local law enforcement agency of the warrant, then watch as your turd neighbor gets served said warrant and then prepare for the circus we call the American judicial system.

Read up on the trespassing laws and procedures. Most law enforcement officers want to help out people like you. Explain your situation to one and hope you get a good guy. Most cops are, but sometimes you get a slug or one who is burned out and they don't give their full effort. Being a absentee land owner can be a trick in a balancing act and getting into a giant peeing matching with your neighbor can lead to major heartache. There is only so much law enforcement can do. Stay positive and work with them and hope the laws of California work for the victim and not the criminal.

I hope some of this info helps you prepare for war with this turd and any other jerk who wants to trespass on your land and abuse your hard work improving it and your pond. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions...

Travis

PS Don't hold your breath of dusting for finger prints or any of that television BS you see. Fingerprints are very hard to lift... Throw in the scene of the burglary is fairly old, probably exposed to weather and with few surfaces that give up good prints, the odds are low. CSI has made my job a nightmare... All these citizens see this made up crap and think it can be done. Some of it can, but that is for murders and violent crimes. The amount of man power it requires is not going to be expended for a simple property crime. Just the realities of the world.


Edited by CJBS2003 (05/31/10 11:55 AM)
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#219454 - 05/31/10 01:52 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: CJBS2003]
dave in el dorado ca Offline
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love ya jhap.

pondfrog and jhap, i'm gonna send you both an e-mail today, look for it later.

happy memorial day all....
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#219512 - 05/31/10 09:51 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: dave in el dorado ca]
heybud Offline
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Hey Buddy, I will come out and take care of the guy/guys anytime you want me too. I have very little tolerance for any of the culprits in this sordid story. They can't pick on my little buddy like that without consequences.
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#219554 - 06/01/10 08:13 AM Re: Down... but not out [Re: heybud]
Sunil Online   content
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I've always taken the "try to be nice approach" first.

Then, when that fails, it's an absolute no trespassing situation.

And, you usually then have a scapegoat: "I tried to be nice about it, but then I caught Joe Blow poaching/stealing from my pond. Now, nobody is allowed in at all, and you can blame Joe Blow for it."
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#219617 - 06/01/10 12:56 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: Sunil]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Sorry to hear it Jeff.

When I first bought land, I wanted to be a good neighbor. Then a predator/prey relationship developed and I was taken advantage of. Then, I decided to become an AHole. I found that I didn't like it but was good at it. Now, I am respected but not all that well liked by some of the neighbors.
_________________________
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#219626 - 06/01/10 01:31 PM Re: Down... but not out [Re: Dave Davidson1]
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
JHAP, just catching up on this. Been too pissed to type. You have been wisely advised. The amount of responses shows how much you and your greenies are respected on the forum. I sincerely hope this has a positive ending. Being also an absebtee owner; I will continue to follow this closely. good luck.
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