Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Shocking Survey

I'm having a survey done this weekend (3.5 acre pond) to determine where I'm at in my pond management before turning loose this year's Tilapia storm troopers and the annual HSB stocking.

I'm most interested in the "uncatchable" Florida bass size and numbers.

Anyone have any advice on what they would do differently in a survey or what worked for them? Lessons learned?

Appreciate your comments. Thanks.

not sure of your questions?? What are they providing? I know what we do and would recommend some of the same if they are not doing certin things. so what services, are you getting written mgmt report, etc?

Greg,

I guess I wasn't a very "smart buyer". I didn't know what to expect as part of the survey.

The survey itself showed very disappointing results for me. No bass over three pounds showed up, and I know for a fact they were in there at one time. I'm going to plot up the relative weight data but on paper it looks okay...just no large fish showed up.

I believe that poaching has hit me harder than I even realized. Human and/or otters. I'm really disappointed, disillusioned I guess. Maybe this is my "money pit". The locals must be dining very well indeed at my expense.

Meadowlark: with no largemouths over 3 pounds in a survey at a Texas pond, there generally are two options.

First, the bass might be crowded (too abundant). You can usually diagnose this situation with the relative weight values, as you already mentioned. However, the shocking crew should also have been able to tell from the number of bass they caught per unit of shocking time. For example, up here, when you get close to or over 100 8-inch and longer largemouths per hour of night electrofishing, you can count on high density, slow growth, and few to no big fish.

Second, if the catch per time isn't too high, and the relative weight values are good, then it IS time to consider the likelihood of excessive harvest of the larger fish.

As Greg indicated, you will get a written management report based on the survey, won't you?

Finally, even in a pond with crowded bass or one that has seen too much harvest, there can still be a big bass or two lurking! Electrofishing only gets a small percentage of your bass population, so a surprise can still be out there. I recall shocking a Kansas pond once per years for about 5 years. We never got a bass over about 13 or 14 inches long (pond was being managed for big panfish). The sixth year, all of a sudden, up comes this 23-inch female! We were shocked. :-)

Hope this helps a little,
Dave

Dave,

Yes, thanks...as maybe you can see I'm a bit down today...low on the enthusiam scale as a result of the survey.

The fish person doing the survey said that he commonly only gets 10 to 20% of the fish in the pond to raise to the top...that in itself was somewhat comforting, but also caused me to rethink the value of shocking.

I compiled all the data and will run the relative weights myself, but I'm fairly confident that the weights are okay, and also the numbers of fish are okay, expecially in view of the 10 to 20% statistic.

I see many HSB at the feeders but we only shocked three to the surface...so unless I was just recently raided by poachers, I assume they are still there.

The more I know, the less I know. Thank you and if you have any more words of encouragement, I could use them today.

Meadow -- I don't know if this will be encouraging or not. However, the more that I know, that less I know! Another way: the more that I learn, the more that I find out how little I really knew! I've been at this stuff since the 1970s.

So, maybe you are on your way to becoming one heck of a fine pondmeister! :-)

Seriously, I don't mean to make light of your situation. The problem that we fisheries folks have is that what we know and what we teach others is probably right at least 90% of the time. In nature (the natural world), 90% is darn good! The problem is, what about that 10%?? What creates those outliers or anomalies? Actually, I've always wondered how private pond consultants deal with that. Because my "advice" is free (I don't do this for a living), people get what they pay for! :-)

So keep at it! You'll get this figured out. I wouldn't expect the hybrid striped bass to electrofish very well. We usually like to gill net them, but that technique kills a lot of fish. We can handle that in a big reservoir, but not a pond! So, your consultant made the right choice on that.

Let us know when you calculate your relative weight values. We especially will want to know if the values go up or down as you increase from small bass to larger bass. Also, we'll want to know if these were pre-spawn or post-spawn weights.

Dave

ML- WHy should you run Wr did they not run them for you? What did the intermediate bg pop look like. That provides a good picture into pop dynamics as well. We shock HSB fairly well but they also go deep sometime and make it hard to see/net although shocked.

although I get the question alot I never answer what percentage we shock. TOO Many variables. It does however provide insight into production and species abundance. Not to be cocky but 90% of time I can tell what the lake is like in the first 5 mins. I just continue to shock b/c the client paid good money to see the fish in his pond. If you have only a few big bass not too surprised you did not get one up.

Feel free to post some results and I will provide free advice if you want some from a redneck GA boy. Sorry your disappointed with results.

There, Meadowlark! That should help cheer you a little. Greg's one of the very best!

Hang in there Meadowlark, if your numbers are lower than what you want, do what I did. This weekend, I added 11 really nice bass to my pond...thanks to my Pop. No offense to the fish hatcheries...but I could make a living selling Bass for $10 per lb. I will also have a pond with great HSB/Bass/Catfish/Crappie...it doesn't bother me when others say it won't work, for me "pond management" is super exciting. If you have outside interference (i.e. Trespassers & Comorants) you will need to "outsmart" your problems. The law is a powerful influence, and small surface nets and bullets work well too.

Hee hee hee. Nothing like a little higher education to make one appreciate how much he doesn't know.

Okay, thanks to all for the encouragement.

Here is some real data:

1) all male bass from 10 to 17 inches were .9 RW
2) female bass from 10 to 13 inches were all .9 RW
3) female bass from 13.5 to 17 inches were 1.1 RW
It appeared that all female bass had spawned and males were active guarding nests.

BG in abundance all sizes with big numbers of BG in 7 to 10 inch range. No lunker BG, but I know they are there from catching many over a pound. Only 1 redear floated...and I never catch red ear in spite of heavy initial stocking. Some 1 inch BG floated which surprised me.

No grass carp floated but 8 are present.

I think back about two years when I had several sightings of bass skeletons (very large) on the banks while also seeing signs of human presence. Neither have been seen recently. I think it is possible that I had otters and human poachers virtually decimate my large bass population. About 1 year ago son-in-law caught what he claimed was an 8 pound bass...he's never seen an 8 pound bass, so I figure it was probably 5 pounds.

Eastland...be glad you didn't take the bet...but thanks for everyone's words.

I admit I was discouraged, but I won't let the SOB's get me down. RW's consistently .9 or better post spawn isn't bad from what I understand. I just expected more.

Greg, if you ever come over to Texas, please, please come to my place.

Dudley, is that an offer to pay $10 per lb. per bass ? If so, get out your checkbook and give me your address ! If you're poking fun at my management that's different. We all learn by the book, and live by trial and error. But with the tools we have in place today, it's a lot easier to manage fish. We already have the Bass/Catfish/Crappie mix under control in a 2.5 pond...doubling the water size and adding HSB to the mix should work well. Really, what's the down side to trying ? I love fishing and know I can adjust fish populations in a small body of water.

Eastland, I wasn't poking fun at your management philosophy or your goals. In fact, I hadn't even read your post. But now having done so, I sincerely applaud your effort. Please accept my apology for my having offended you, however unintentionally.

My remark was only a comment on the first paragraph of Dr. Willis's post of 12:47.

Dr. Dave,

Thinking about this a little more...there were a couple of interesting subtle data points in my story that I would like for you to comment on:

1) only 1 red ear floated; 2000 were stocked three years ago along with the Florida bass
2) no large bass were observed in the survey even though I have seen them around the feeders preying on BG
3) no grass carp even though you can see them easily
4) three HSB even though you can see many of them at the feeders.

This makes me suspect that those fish were in deeper water and maybe didn't get the shock. The 1 red ear is an especially interesting happening.

My summary of this experience,

1) my pond management is right on track
2) no matter what I do, scum sucking poachers can undo it...thats the frustrating part
3) shocking didn't really tell me anything about my pond that I didn't know...and I'm still convinced that large bass are present, notwithstanding the survey.

If indeed he only floated 10 to 20% of the bass, then I have a magical fishery, which I knew to be the case before the survey. There is no better BG fishing anywhere than I have experienced in this pond....and the LMB have learned to avoid anything attached to a line that isn't a live BG.

If I can solve or at least minimize the poaching problem, I will gladly match this pond with anyone, anywhere....and every fish will have been raised from scratch, not caught as an adult and moved here.

Hi ML! Sounds like you are doing better! :-) I'll take a stab at your questions, but let's wait to hear from Greg as well. I'm a long way from your southern pond!

1) only 1 red ear floated; 2000 were stocked three years ago along with the Florida bass. To be honest, I would have expected to see more of the redears. I wonder if their survival was low on the initial stocking. If you really want them as part of the community, I wonder if you should add some intermediate-size or adult redears. Greg will know much more about this than me.

2) no large bass were observed in the survey even though I have seen them around the feeders preying on BG; Lots of "things" affect our electrofishing. One good example is water clarity. If you have a very clear pond and they shocked during the daytime, then the bigger bass may very well have avoided them. However, it sounds to me like your bass "quality" is moderate at best. Even though your relative weight values are indeed OK, they are sort of mid-range. I suspect some culling of small bass might be a good idea IF YOUR GOAL is to produce larger bass. Remember that the overall quality of bluegills will go DOWN as you decrease the bass abundance. Greg??

3) no grass carp even though you can see them easily; Grass carp are NOTORIOUS for not being caught in nets or by electrofishing. I actually call them smart, even though we're not supposed to give human characteristics to fish! :-) The best way to assess grass carp abundance is to visually see them on calm days when they are near the surface. So, no surprise here!

4) three HSB even though you can see many of them at the feeders; Greg seemed to think that you should have seen more, and he has more experience with hybrids than me by far. However, this is an open-water predator, and is not sitting on shoreline structure as are the largemouth bass.

Finally, to me, the 7-10 inch bluegills are pretty darn nice. 9 inches is 3/4 of a pound, and 10 inchers that are very plump are starting to push one pound. To me, those are nice fish, and a good indicator that your bass are pretty darn abundant. Once again, let's see what Greg has to say!!

To be honest, a pond with results such as yours would be a pretty darn good one in SD. Up here, a 17 inch bass is pretty nice, as we consider a 20 incher (5 lb) to be a real trophy. Add those big bluegills to the mix, and it would be a dandy of a pond up here. So, that's why some comments from Greg will be welcome.

Dave

P.S. Dudley: I catch those "humorous" comments!

Dave,

What I was concluding, maybe in error, that since red ears are deep water fish, the HSB are deep open water fish, and it was a bright sunshine day on a moderately clear pond...and the shocking started from the shallows and worked out to deeper water...the shocking may well have missed the larger bass. I didn't expect many large bass, but did expect to see at least two or three.

ML -- That, plus the fact that having a low abundance of big bass adds that random chance factor as well. Greg will undoubtedly provide good input when he gets a chance to check the forum.

ML,

You say "the LMB have learned to avoid anything attached to a line that isn't a live BG".

Do you think the poachers are getting all your large Bass using live BG?

You mentioned a Otter, I would think that the Otter would be much more able to eliminate your larger Bass than hook & line thieves who would (should??) lose interest after several unsuccessful attempts at uncatchable Bass.

Just a suggestion and I sure hope you find an answer to where the Bass went.

Dan

Meadow,

I had some of the same results as you with my survey.

1. Very few redears showed up but on any day I can catch 1 pounders until reel is worn out.

2. No carp. I have some.

3. No catfish. Explained as they were in the deep.

4. Few tilapia. Explained as hard to bring up. I have plenty of them from visual identification.

Was it worth it? It confirmed my thoughts and recorded data but I won't do it again for at least 5 years.

I was able to get some big bas up. Some I hadn't know about.

Good luck

Dan,

Yes I have seen evidence of "bait" fishing...and for a lot of folks in that area bait fishing with minnows is the preferred method.

I know how deadly that approach is on bass in my pond as I tried it myself a couple of times. I honestly believe I could catch every bass greater than 10 inches over a two day period armed with sufficient baby BG...or maybe even fat head minnows.

Of course an otter is an even better fisher especially so on larger bass, I've been told.

Thats why I was so depressed earlier. Do everything right, create the best possible fishery, and you still loose...not to say that I do everything right, but I do try real hard.

TEXAS715,

Thank you so much for your post. It does confirm what I have seen.

Like you, it will be a long time before I ever do this again, the survey that is. In fact, I do not expect to ever do it again. I did not learn anything that was not there to be learned by careful observation. I knew everything that the survey showed long before the actual survey...but I was in denial about the poaching.

Thanks for your post.

Meadowlark,
If you ever think you are bass short, don't buy any. I told you before you are welcome to native bass 14" and under from my place. If you have a tank to haul them. I still have too many and it looks like the spwan this year will be good. I am not able to fish much this year so far. The last times I did 20 to 30 bass were common. Half of that came straight out of the lake.
Bob

bmccreight,

I haven't forgotten your generous offer and intend to cash in on it, if its still open this fall.

It just does not make good sense to me to add adult bass...or the adult HSB that I was going to get...until I can get better control of this poaching situation. I'm just feeding the locals.

Your offer is sincerely appreciated and will be called on this fall, I hope.

Meadowlark, let's talk about your RW's. You have healthy fish, but with the abundance of bgill & tilapia, your fish should be above 1. I think you're suffering more from birds than poachers. Poachers would "steal" fish, but they shouldn't effect your upper end Relative Weights. You have feeders, large bgill, and tilapia. Since you didn't see a massive die off in your largest pond last fall, it's more than likely you're enemy is from the sky. Do you know the RW's of the bgill ? Good luck my friend, we're all in this together.

Eastland,

Actually I'm thinking the RW's are good to excellent considering that those were post-spawn fish and many of the 10 to 13 inch ones were transplants from a pond I renovated last fall. The transplants were native fish that I was trying to cross with what was left of my original Florida bass to give a more aggressive fish. Those transplants were not in good shape last fall, all were skinny and in the 10 to 13 inch range. So I'm actually thinking the RW's were good considering those factors. There were about 15 transplants, which if I had been smart I would have marked....the more I know, the less I know.

The over 13 inch fish I'm sure were all non-transplants.

I didn't run RW on the BG because one look at what came up in the first 5 minutes would tell you the BG in this pond are outstanding...which I verify every weekend with "direct" observation.