Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Help needed from Afghanistan

hello everyone.

As you can tell from the subject, i am in Afghanistan doing the things our country asks me to do, and I have just purchases a house in the western nc mountains.

If at all possible I would like to have a little trout pond like this one trout pond

the yellow lines on my map indicate where i would run a pvc to a Ram pump to create a waterfall effect sorta like in the video.

am i crazy or can I make this happen?

can you give me your ideas on how to make this happen, i would like to have a finallized plan for when i return in 4 months.

the stream running to the bottom of my proposed pond is not a stream, or was not there when i visited the property in march. its more of a watershed, the property is very steap which is way i may just be crazy to think i can make this happen.

the top of my property line is where the national forest starts (50k acres). I only own 4.2 acres and the creek is right at the eastern property line.

tks.



typo map:


creek:

Kloot, glad you joined, and thank your for serving our country. Many of the member that could answer this question are at the Pond Boss Convention. When they get some free time im sure they will help you out!

Looks like a great place though, congrats.

Kloot, welcome to PB and a heartfelt thanks for what you are doing for this country.

To have a viable trout habitat, the trout must have water that is 70*F or below all year 'round to survive. Or, you could stock them in the Fall when it cools down, thru Spring when the water temps get above 70*F. What do you think the water temps are where you want the trout stream?

Like jakeb said, most of the members here are at the PB Conference. A few weren't able to make it and are trying to hold down the fort. The others might chime in here, but you'll get more answers after Monday or so after everybody gets back home and settled in.

I'll help with what little I know, and I know CJ will be checking in here as well. He has experience with man-made streams and trout.

Kloot, hello from the Memphis, Tennessee area. Many of the members are in the Branson Missouri area at the Pond Boss convention. Probably 200 or more have gathered there to learn more about managing their ponds and lakes.

When they return you will get alot of input on your dream. I'm sure your heart is back in NC. I want you to know our prayers are with you. Mike

IMO a pond the size of the one in the video shouldn't be a problem. All you have to do is dig a hole & if the soil isn't suitable put in a liner. If you make the sides (below water) steep it will be easier to keep the water cool.
You can make it happen.

Take care & keep your guard up .. always.

the steams water temp is below 70 even during the summer. the elevation at the area where the pic is, is around 3200ft. the stream runs to a bigger stream where the bigger stream is fully stocked with trout at lower elevations.

if looking at the picture, the land to the left is mine, and it should have plenty of shade to keep the water cool. and like ric said i am thinking a liner would be the best coarse of action, because i expect to have rocks where i dig.

my biggest concern is getting a good flow of water from the stream, in the picture the land owner to the right has a hose in which he is taking some of the water from the creek, i would expect to do the same, even if i have to go up into the national forest to do so, it should not be a long way, maybe 100 ft and be gravity fed to the pond.

i really dont know how many gpm i would get from this however until i test it.

i also need to be concerned about the little creek shown on the map, the watershed and how much water it would produce into the pond and how i could untilize or deter it.

tks again for the replies, it gives me something to do here, when not out on mission.

Hey kloot, thanks for serving the country!

I was just in the Ashville, NC area last month... What a pretty area and some great fishing!

There are a couple members on here who have ponds built on or near trout streams. Adirondack Pond is one of them. As others have already said, trout need temps below 70-74 degrees and near saturation levels of DO to survive. If you can keep your pond on the smaller size, fairly shaded you should be OK. It will depend greatly on the water volume from the stream... Do you have any idea how many GPM the stream flow is during the warm months of the year? When I was in western NC last month, there really is a huge difference between the temps in the valley and the temps at 3,000 plus feet. I really noticed temps dropping above 4,000 feet.

My dad has a friend who has a couple trout ponds in VA at about 2,800 feet. They are fed by small spring fed streams. The spring fed streams have a very steady flow year round and the water is in the 55 degree range. That is the key, cold and high volume water flows. That helps balance out the lack of shade the pond causes and all the warm sun beating down on the non flowing water and heating it up. Add in the cooler temps and higher elevations and you're in business.

hey Lunker,

yeah the water flow into the pond is my biggest difficulty right now, i have read that i would need 3 gpm to support 300 trout in a small pond enviornment. I am figuring the waterfall thingy (to me looks like a ram pump) from the trout pond link in my first post is about 5gpm. I would be happy with 3 gpm.

it is really going to be difficult to produce that. this ram pump looks really compeling (ram pump) . I do not need to go up hill which the ram pump is really designed to do, but it should be more effective then suction from just a hose.

here is my first design lol the pond is 60x60 and the hose/pvc pipe would be 150ft.

in regards to summer output here is a pic my girlfriend took during the hottest part of the summer, however it is about 500ft lower then my property

-kloot

kloot:

I'll bet that summer outlet pic is in the range of 20+ gpm! I think that with your temps, you won't have a problem at all.

Are there an legal issues diverting the stream water? Are there any issues with the effluent from the pond?

It's important you determine gpm in minimum and maximum flow depending on the season. If it was me I wouldn't gather as much factual data as possible before you start digging.

For me a rule of thumb for earthen ponds is 12 lbs. max of carrying capacity for trout per gpm of flow. That refers to the maximum pounds you think you will end up with vs. the lbs. you plant. However there are ways to increase carrying capacity without increasing flow as in the use of a a biofilter and clarifier if your water does not warm up too much. You can build them yourself and have them out of view for better aesthetics.

Smaller is better for keeping the water cool and and increased exchange rate. A liner could be the ticket as in preventing serious seepage problems and moving the suspended solids out faster. However they have a downside too. That is, there is less nitrification going on on the bottom with a liner vs. a natural bottom.

Is there anyway to contact the person that owns the trout pond in the video and get information from him or her? Usually if one is doing this for recreational purposes they are happy to share information. My guess is the pond is not only flow through but recirculating water through a biofilter and clarifier, but I could be wrong.

An economical book called Small Scale Aquaculture by Stephen Van Gorder is available that has a chapter on building a trout pond. In my honest opinion the low price of this book justifies just one chapter on trout ponds. It also covers the construction of bilofilters and clarifiers to save you lots of bucks. I recently built one myself.

http://www.altaqua.com/order.htm

As far as 3 gpms supporting 300 trout that depends on the size of the trout. The weight of the trout is more important than the number and is closely tied into the amount of feed that will go into the water and subsequent waste products. Three things to consider in a trout pond:

1.) Water temperature (55 to 65 optimum)

2.) Oxygen levels (at least 5 ppm but higher more optimum)

3.) Ammonia, specifically unionzied that has to stay below a certain amount or your fish will have problems. You don't want your ammonia to go above .025 mg/l with trout. Higher temps and a higher PH will cause your unionized ammonia to spike higher.

Number's 2 and 3 are directly effected by the lbs. of fish and the amount they are fed.

Ammonia levels are lower in lower temps of water but oxygen is inversely proportional to water temperature. That is colder water holds more oxygen.

Here's a brookie out of my trout pond a few years ago a friend of my mother caught.

It looks that way to me too Scott.

Thanks Cecil... You are the man when it comes to growing huge trout in small ponds!

wow, great looking brownie Cecil and tks for the info. you have brought up a few great points.

are there any legal issues dirverting the spring? i dont know, i cant find anything on the internet about it, so i guess i will have to have someone come out and tell me what i can and cant do.

if i take 2-3 gpm from the stream and it ends back in the stream i dont think it would be a problem, but then again it may very well be. also i cant find any info for a pond permit as well, so same thing i guess.

i am going to do my best to track down the owners of the pond i posted, i am hoping that they do not use any electrical pumps, that would be heart breaking, because my electric box is way up by my house. my hope is that he is using a ram pump, it seems like the waterflow from the waterfall is in one second intervals like a ram.

my plan would be just to have little trout and when they reach 1-1.25 lbs, remove them, drain the pond, fix any problems, and start again. should be a once a year thing.

how many gpm do you think that pond video is putting out from the water fall?

Kloot,

That's a brook trout. Here's my biggest brown trout out of the pond. (About 12 lbs.). My neighbor got off his lawnmower and manned the landing net and is holding the fish. A Marine you don't want to get on the wrong side of!



BTW did you know Afghanistan has native brown trout? Most likely they look nothing like ours (brown trout vary a lot in appearance depending on their origin), but they are native in that part of the world. They are native from Europe all the way south to northern Africa and east and north to Siberia I believe.

As far as how many gpm is in the video I can't tell by the quality of the video, but it seems to be pulsing the water, which could be telling on what he is using to mover or lift the water. It's possible there is water coming in from somewhere else too.
If I was you I would figure out how to make gravity flow work for you.

Does your choice of the RAM pump mean you pond is above your source of water? If so can you locate it at a lower level than your source of water?

If the guy uses power and it's not an option, not all is lost. If you have the necessary water available you may be able to figure out a way to use it. Building an RBC and also a clarifier from two 55 gallon drums may be all you need to increase fish capacity by at least 100 lbs.

I've got an extra copy of the book I listed I'd be happy to send and give you free of charge if you PM me with a mailing address. It does use a very small pump but I'm pretty sure you can power it with just gravity flow water if necessary.

Note: I've been going back over your posts. I would not build your pond 60 X 60 if flow is a concern. The pond in the video is not nearly that large. It can't be more than 25 feet in diameter. A smaller pond is easier to keep cool and it has a higher exchange rate. My pond is 90 by 55 but I run in about 45 gpm of flow.

Why the ram pump? I assume you are moving water uphill?

Well I'm not so sure right now. Still can't figure out what is going on with my brook trout. They are only feeding on one side of the pond mostly (the side where I did not remove the Chara), and don't really start feeding until almost dark. Feeding seems good now but it's like I've got about a third of the trout I used to have. No floaters though.

I do know Chara can hold a large amount of invertebrates and it's possible they are feeding on them but I can't imagine there are enough invertebrates to cause about 85 1.5 to 2 pound brook trout to slow down substantially on the artificial feed. (And there are no fatheads in the pond). Also from my experience with feed trained trout that are fed on a regular basis, they will pretty much ignore natural feed.

Another possibility is the trout are attracted to the Chara due to oxygen production or a hiding place by the Chara, but I have my doubts if that is a factor as it never has been before.

I thought of cranking up my Kasco floating aerator at night to see if things improve, as I may have an oxygen or ammonia sag and spike at night that I am not aware of, but I loaned it out to a friend that had D.O. problems with his pond.

Don't put me too high on a pedestal. You are a very knowledgeable poster here. I enjoy your posts and it's obvious you have a lot to offer the website.

sweet, reminds me of when i was just a young grasshopper catching my first stealhead with my old man in washington.

I can def see how afghanistan could be a wonderful place for trout, and probably once was. drinking water here is much more valuable so the creeks and rivers have been pillaged. maybe one day. maybe i can convince one of my interpreters to start a trout farm!

as far as gavity is concerned, i wouldnt have a problem with that since my property is so vertical. the reason i would like to have the linear ram pump is because i think it might be more efficent then siphon. do you think there is a better way?

I would love to be able to grow browns or rainbow that big, but my little pond would never be able to handle that. i have also considered a trout farm for myself to run after i get out of the military. after doing what i do for a living, low stress living is very appealing hence why i bought a house where i did.

and also that is very cool of you to offer to send the book, i will be moving to a different area and by this time next week will have my new address, and i will send it to you then.

in your pond, are all the trout about the same size? or could the monsters be eating the little guys you restock with? i wouldnt put it past a 12 lb'er having lunch on a 1 lb'er.

im not a marine but i think your neighbor would like this pic of me a few weeks ago on mission.

Gravity flow can easily be controlled via a valve like a gate valve or even a homemade valve. You could even control flow with a flexible corigated pipe by pulling it up, and tying it off with a stake if you want to stop flow, or other ways. I'm a big believer in the KISS principal (Keep it Simple Stupid) and gravity flow with a valve would be right in line with that. I would not mess with the expense of a RAM pump unless you want to move water uphill.



You can grow trout as big as you want in a small pond. The rainbows in the video are at least 4 or 5 lbs. It's just that you are limited by maximum pounds depending on your flow or if you build a biofilter, and clarifier, and how much the biofilter and clarifier can handle. Trout are grown to large sizes all the time in raceways as small as a foot deep and 3 feet wide. You see, our trout have been selectively bred for at least 120 years, so the ones that can't grow or handle small spaces have been removed from the gene pool.




There are a lot of trout farms in that area of the country and occasionally one comes up for sale. In another part of the country there is an awesome trout farm that has gone to weeds because the father passed away and the son has no interest in running it. (Cape Cod) Maybe need to send the ungrateful boy to Afghanistan eh?



I'll be waiting for the address. I have two copies because someone borrowed my first copy and took their time sending it back. I then bought another one and he finally sent me another copy.



Yep looks like you are armed to the teeth. Of course you need to be where you're at. Please keep your head up and watch your back. My dad who was a Green Beret in Vietnam told me survival it was all about keeping your head up and constantly being alert to your surroundings to survive. He said if anything seemed not right it probably wasn't. My nephew who was wounded twice in Iraq was constantly looking for suspicious things along the roads here for several months after he got back. He said he knew better but couldn't help it.

Me I'm the slacker of the family on my dad's side that goes all the way back to fighting in the Revolutionary War. I was in the ANG and missed being deployed to Desert Storm by 20 minutes.

well i am finally back from AF. Just got to spend a week on my new property, and loved it.

I have found out that there is a very small yr round creek directly on my property which measured at 4.5 gpm at the top of my property and 9 gpm at the bottom (i think there is another feeder stream which is probably not yr round but not sure yet).

my hope is to create natural looking pond within the creek to hold maybe 50 fingerling trout.

Just wanted to say thank you for serving, glad you are home safe. Best wishes to you and dont forget to sign up at a VA as soon as you get out (even if you say you will not use them, do it anyway). When congress changes the laws you will be grandfathered in under the laws that were in place at the time you signed up with the VA. Long live the 11th ACR.

Welcome home kloot, and a heartfelt thanks!

Hey, Kloot, just found this thread for the first time and read up on all of it with interest. Above all, as the others have said, welcome home and thank you so much for the sacrifice you made for us. Being from a military family, I am deeply grateful for your service.

Welcome home Kloot. Does the stream ever flood?

the land is to steep to flood on my property. where i would want to put in a small pond is the flatest part of the land and it is still about a ten percent slope.

Welcome back to the world Kloot, good luck with your trout pond, hope they do well.

Kloot,

Don't forget to give me an address so I can send the book.