Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Golden Shiner Groath Rate - New Pond?

In early May of this year I stocked a batch of GSH (fry), and they seemed to do OK up till about 8 weeks ago. They got to about one inch in length and then seemed to stop growing. This is the first season for my new 1.5 acre pond and there are no other fish in the pond to eat them or thin out the population yet, so i'm wondering if they have run out of natural food to eat? The pond has a lot of algae in it but not much else as far as I can see. My stocking plan was to let these minnows get a good start this season and start stocking some LMB, BG, and maybe some YP next spring. Anyone know how fast the GSH should be for this situation? Any thoughts?

It seems to me like not such stong growth for those shiners and you may have hit it with thinking about their feed.

I don't know how much time you have left this year for fish to take feed, but if your water temps are still above 70s or so, you might get some bang.

I'd get some small size fish pellets and throw some out for a few days and see what happens.

I have no experience with GSH growing from fry, but that seems like low growth to me as well.

GSH do take feed extremely well IME.

The GS will not grow after the water temp has dropped below 50 to 55 deg. I sounds like you had a great survival rate on the fry though, and that is how it should be. These fish have also probably maxed out their growing space. When you add preditor fish in the spring you will see the numbers start to decrease, and feeding is an option that will probably only sustain them now if they are out of growing room so that is a personal call on feeding.

At least the fry lived, I put 3 bags of Anderson's fry in my pond last May, saw nothing but dead fry for the next week or so. Don't think any of them lived, not a good investment.

A big key to getting the fry to survive is to make sure their is a good zooplankton bloom occurring in your pond at the same time, otherwise the fry have nothing to eat and starve to death...

Steve. I will be glad to visit with you about the Fry issue. Not to insult your intelegence, but are you sure they were fry that you saw dead. Mosquito larve, dragon fly larve and other insects look a whole lot like fry when they are at that stage. I assume this took place last year, do you see any forage now? Send me a personal message if you want to discuss it.

I sent you an E mail. You can't insult my intelligence I don't have any. When God was passing that out I went fishing.

Steve you sure there aren’t a bunch left ? The concept is that a very high % will not live but the ones that do will grow and reproduce. You would not want all or a high % to live. For example BG reproduce at a high rate (30 to 60 thousand eggs/fry per pair of adults per year). Most of the BG fry/yoy have to die or they will overpopulate the food source (only a very small % survive to adulthood < 3 %). They either starve to death or are eaten. That is what you are trying to replicate with GShiner fry. The goal is to establish a sustainable viable population of reproducing adults. If a large % of the fry survive it is unlikely the goal will be met.

I'm going to check it out in a few weeks or so and see what I have in terms of bass food. I know it doesn't mean much but since last fall, the only thing I've seen in the shallows are FH, actually since mid summer.

A good idea. I have learned based on past mistakes that many times my initial observations about no or little fish survival were wrong. Just a couple weeks ago we ( both Pros and non-pros) discussed if all the TShad in several locations were winter killed. Several thought in their particular circumstance that they were dead based on observation. Later the answer turned out to be they survived. Its always good to know for sure what is there before new fish are stocked.

How exactly are you going to determine for sure the shiners made it? Actually that might be easier than proving they did not.

If they made it, I should be finding small shiners, maybe 2-3 inch range ? I did put some adults in last summer, so those will be larger. If I was to bet on it, I'd be betting I won't find many shiners at all, small or large. As far as method, I'm planning on using a net.

If you seine it that would remove all doubt. I am very interested Steve, very interested.

I determine the condition of my forage base not only with pellet feeding but also by employing a dozen minnow traps set along the edges of my pond. I bait them with bread or pellets - but they will capture plenty of forage without any bait also. I routinely sample various sizes of tadpoles, FHM and GSH - the latter up to 4 - 5", and if I'm lucky I'll even score a crawfish or some PK Shrimp. This is an easy and immediate way to determine the condition of your forage base if you lack a seine and a buddy to help you [like me].

Couple of tips for using minnow traps: Keep them in 1-2' of water, resist the urge to go deeper, IMO catches are exponentially smaller. Also, don't allow them to sit for several days - 24-48 hrs max or many of your precious critters will die. It's interesting to note my tadpoles begin consuming the minnow casualties and there are several half eaten if I leave the trap for longer than 48 hrs. Definitely on the tadpoles menu!

SK

Take heart - GSH and FHM look awfully similar from the top view - although IME GSH do tend to be a more open water schooling fish. I sure hope your GSH made it - Anderson's is a great company and it sounds like you could use some good news on your KC pond. [Isnt' this the one in an urban area and you're fighting major nutrient issues?] If you have any shallow, grassy areas that provide protection from predation you SHOULD have GSH established...

If you don't have any luck with the minnow traps or seining, let me know. Shawn Banks and Rex Rains service your area and could bring a few lbs of mature shiners to do their thing - I know their prices are very reasonable and they are good guys. Heck, I owe Shawn a visit this Spring - I'll even drive down some of my adult GSH if you want, and some CSBG to sweeten the deal. All I want is for your pond to be successful, and if I may be so bold, a diet pepsi too?

Yessir, I have some ponds that just don't lend themselves to netting. The minnow traps get used. I will even place them at different levels in different areas and get different results. I try to check them every 24. And I use different baits. Can of ol roy or any crappy dog food with a bunch of holes punched in it always does the trick. For bread I try to use hardened stuff like old stale breadsticks or hardened heels so it lasts a bit longer. Sometime I'll use a nasty chunk of spoiled meat, a fishhead with entrails hanging out. The more meat, the more crawdads, the more bread, the more minnows. Big fish pellets in cheesecloth wrap really will bring in little fish. And polliwogs are eating machines. I raise bullfrog polliwogs and mine are way, way bigger than the ones that retail at the stores for $2-3 a pop, because mine are pelletized. Very good way to do an inexact but broad forage survey. I can't agree with fhm looking like shiners though. Not after they get a couple of inches. They just look, move, and act way different. Tough to tell fhm from gambusia, but the gambusia tend to stay near the surface.

PF - identification point taken...of course FHM and GSH differences are apparent to YOU...and other seasoned pond owners [now to me...little more learning every day] but to a new pond owner and someone learning forage behavior they certainly both have dark upper halves and are shaped similarly which can lead to confusion, at least, if you know what I mean. Of course once one views the entire body the brilliant silver and mouth of the GSH give it away. I've also noticed they move faster and react immediately to any event [like a footstep or shadow] than a FHM. They just seem far more aware of their surroundings while FHM aimlessly float along like they are just leaving a bar in Amsterdam. I guess the impetus for my statement is that I'm holding out hope for the Anderson's/SK relationship here that perhaps SK IS indeed seeing GSH in the shallows along with FHM...?

I guess after looking at them for 45+ years, you get a bit of an edge. Shiners are a bit more streamlined from the top. And scales are a big tell if you get close enough. They tend to glisten in sunlight from above. Gambusia and fhm are drab. But the behavior is the giveaway. Shiners are fast movers, they just dart and move fast, even if nothing is bothering them. Gambusia will stay on top, jump out of the water. FHM roll a lot when feeding, showing thier sides. And those males to get the big heads at spawn time. They swim erratically a lot, like they are stoned. And once that baitfish gets over 4 inches, very little doubt what it is. Some people say certain species school or don't school. That I really do not beleive. I've seen all of them school, or not. I actually have all three species in an aquarium in my living room just to observe thier behavior. The meanest fish pound for pound is the gambusia. But like you said, I have been doing this forever, point taken.

TJ - " and if I may be so bold, a diet pepsi too? "

yeah, right...

What...Diet Pepsi is an excellent foundation for a strong cocktail

Why would anyone pollute good whiskey with anything but water?

Dave must be a scotch man...i'm lik'in you better all the time.

Good scotch is a pleasure. However, on the occasions that I cozy up to whiskey, it's usually Jack Daniels Black. Sorta like the old name of bourbon and branch. Sometimes I forgo the branch part.

I'm essentially a Budweiser and really expensive tequila fan. I love really good margueritas. Cheap tequila tastes like turpentine. My last trip to the liquor store got me a pint of tequila that cost me $67.00. At that price, you gotta ration it and hide it when your son in law comes into town.

However, when it gets cold outside I like De Kuypers Apricot Brandy. Take a sip of that stuff and you can feel the warmth spreading through your body. If you're not careful, you'll get so warm that you can fall of deer stands and bass boats.

I don't like vodka in any form. I recently mentioned that to a friend. He was doing a consulting gig in Russia and brought me a bottle of the best, most expensive Russian stuff. It was unobtainable in the US at any price. He told me to put it in the freezer for a couple of days and sip it straight. Ok, I tried and then returned it to him. It brought back 50 year old memories of projectile vomiting in a friends brand new Ford convertible. As I recall, my girlfriend broke up with me after that deal. I thought that was kinda narrow minded at the time.

Dave "It brought back 50 year old memories of projectile vomiting in a friends brand new Ford convertible."

That gave me a godo laugh this am. I feel the same way if I see or smell yager.