Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help Pump Questions

So I know I've read lots of posts about pumps for various applications from transferring water from one pond to another, from streams to ponds, for draining ponds, etc. I cannot get the search function on the site to work narrowly enough to make the results useful and don't know anything about the Google search angle that I saw referenced in the "Changes Coming" thread, but it sounds like it would be a very useful tool to know more about.

Anyway, my question is this: we are going to be planting a larger garden at our farm this spring and do not yet have a water source there other than the ponds. By late summer, we should have water through the local PSD, but until then, we don't have a well or any other source. I'd like to use pond water for our garden and know I'll need a pump. What sort of pump am I looking for and what means of running it should I be aware of? We have power available, but just haven't set up an account yet and will have some time and expense in getting it run from the main road to our property, none of which will happen prior to our need for water for the garden.

So, what sort of solution am I looking at for this? I mean aside from filling a bucket and making a lot of trips back and forth!

Thanks!

Couple of questions for ya.
How far is the pond from the garden (horizontally), and how far much higher is the garden than the water level in the pond? (vertically)

Do you have a generator?

Do you have something that can transport a 275 gallon tote full with water in it?

Thanks for the questions, esshup. Not yet sure how far away from the pond the garden will be, but likely not more than 150 feet or so. The elevation change between pond surface and garden surface won't exceed 5 feet in all likelihood - the pond is in a fairly flat area and the garden will be located in that same general area.

I do have a generator and I do have a midsize-ish ATV that would probably pull a 275 gallon tote without too much difficulty. Hadn't even thought about that idea, but could just get one of those, and aren't they self-powered with gas?

Thanks - look forward to your further input.

The tote that I was referring to looks like this.

You could get an electric dewatering pump that'll run off the generator and hook a garden hose to it, although @ 150' there will be considerable water flow loss due to friction. Or, you could go a step bigger and get a 1/2 hp electric water pump. Hook it up to 2" PVC (buried or laying on top of the ground) and run that to the garden, tapping off of it with a hose.

Or, use the dewatering pump to fill up the tote and wheel it to the garden. They normally have a 2" butterfly valve built into the tanks. If you go that route, make sure that the tanks can be cleaned out good enough for use on stuff that you're going to eat. 275G of water = roughly 2291# tho.....

Dad waters his property at the lake with a 1 hp pump (220v) that sucks lake water. We put in a 2" trunk line and ran 1" branches off of that, stepping down to 3/4 at the sprinkler head. He can run 11 impulse sprinklers at once without any apparent loss of flow.

For interim use, until you get power in place, a DC bilge pump hooked to th ATV might suffice for flood irrigation. These things are cheap, less than 20 bucks and quite handy.

Thanks, esshup and tejasrojas, for your thoughts. I've seen those totes around but never knew what they were used for. Now I guess I know at least one use!

I've seen listings for "submersible well pumps" and "deep well jet pumps" in our local "Bulletin Board" sale rag. Is that what I'm looking for, or is it something totally different? If something else, where would I find one and what sort of specifics would I be looking for (aside from perhaps a 1hp pump)?

As far as a "trunk" line, how would that be set up and what sort of attachments would be needed to hook up the pump to it? Interesting ideas! Thanks!

Todd:

We gotta reverse engineer it. How much water are you looking at moving? (look at the sprinkler sizes and GPH ratings for a start)

A trunk like is just a larger diameter pipe/hose that comes out of the pump, and you tap off of that (branch off of it) for the different outlets (sprinklers or hose bibs).

A deep well or deep well jet pump is not the ideal pump for your application. Depending on the amount of water that you need, a bilge pump, submersible pump, a sprinkler pump or a shallow well pump might fit your needs, depending on the amount of water that you need to move.

Honestly, esshup, I don't know what volume of water I'll be using, but enough to water a garden contained inside what I am projecting to be a 25 x 50 enclosure. Not all of that space will used this first year as we're just going to work on getting it started with a handful of "crops" and see how the first season goes. I guess it won't be a bunch, but I have no idea on how to quantify it right now.

I am not planning to construct any sort of sprinkler system for now, intending to just be able to use a hose, but a sprinkler system is a pretty awesome idea to chew on once we get this project up and running.

Your point about the well pumps is understood - I was just curious if that was what I was after. I did some searching online earlier and found some pumps like these from Harbor Freight. Submersible (there are a number of different ones on the site) or Gas Powered (not sure I want to spend that much, but just looking for comparison points) Any opinions on these? Thinking higher horsepower is better (in typical guy thinking!), and curious as to the preference of a submersible versus a gas-powered. Any thoughts?

And thanks a bunch for working through this with me!

If you've got electric available, then I'd go with the cheaper submersible. I'd also put it inside a 5 gallon bucket, tying it inside and put some sort of a screen on top of the bucket so it won't suck any junk thru the pump. While it won't hurt the pump, you'll soon tire of cleaning out the sprinkler head. Been there, done that (often). Sink the pump so the top of the bucket is under water by at least a foot, maybe more, keeping the bucket upright so it doesn't suck junk from the bottom of the pond.

If you went with the gasoline powered one, I think you might have to rig up a bypass valve to bypass most of the water back to the pond. For that area, you wouldn't be using anywhere close to 100 gpm!

25 x 50, you probably could get by with 2 fan type ocillating head sprinklers, or a couple of rainbird type impact sprinkler heads.

Thanks, esshup. Those are some good thoughts. While I don't have power there right now, it's just a matter of time to get it brought in and I have a generator for the interim. A submersible seems to make the most sense and I really like your suggestion of putting it in a bucket to minimize crud getting into it. I think given the fact that I'll just be using a hose to water for now, this simple setup makes the most sense. I like the idea of using a sprinkler, too, though, and may try that just for fun. Did the submersibles that I linked to fit the general bill in terms of what I should be looking for, or is another sort of pump more appropriate?

Thanks a ton for working through this with me!

The submersibles might work. It'd be nice to get psi ratings on them. All the flow in the world doesn't work if you don't have some pressure behind it.

I hauled water last year. I used 4 55 gallon drums on a pallet. Lifted them in the air and gravity fed out the water. It served it's purpose but got old in a while.

This year I am driving in a shallow well (about 20 feet deep) and installing an electric pump. I will be running the pump from a generator as it will be a couple good years before electric gets back that far. Cost will total about 500.00. A local rental company rent's shallow well drivers for 60.00/day.

Sure beats hauling water, and I can run sprinklers.

The next thing I have to figure out is how to shut the system down after x amount of time in case I have to leave. I suppose I could rig up a relay circuit with timer and ac motor contactor and tie it into the on/off switch on the generator.


Todd, Is a shallow well an option in your case?

Another pump option could be a booster pump from your pond with a pre-filter. A 1/2 hp booster could pump 150 feet, maybe 7gpm but would probably blow your budget. Could probably pick one up on ebay at a reasonable cost.

Just a thought.

Have you considered getting an above-ground water tank and filling it up using a pump? It seems to me that dragging a pump, hose, and generator out there all the time to water would be kind of a PITA, you could install an above-ground tank, put a hose on it, and just bring the pump out to refill it once a month or so.

Keep in mind that you might not always be the one around to water. It's going to be a whole lot easier for your mother-in-law or uncle to figure out a spigot on the side of a tank than a pump and generator.

You would also be able to use relatively inexpensive water timers with a tank, for automatic watering or to have the system automatically shut off after you leave. Once you know what you want to grow, you could install drop irrigation and really stretch the water in the tank longer.

Great suggestion, txelen. Thanks. We actually just completed a nice building at the farm, so there wouldn't be lots of dragging back and forth with equipment, but there'd certainly be moving it to the pond each time. That gives me more to think about as the project develops. Is the sort of tank you're talking about just a gravity feed setup for watering, or are you thinking about something that has a pump of its own to push the water through a hose?

Could just keep it simple:

http://honda.northerntool.com/water-pumps/honda-lightweight-1-water-pump.htm

Which very much has its merits. That's what I was thinking initially so I could take my time and really gain an understanding of what we'll need and if a more involved solution is actually even necessary down the road. I've always been a fan of just running a hose, but doing so from a pond is a new thing for me.

I am driving in a Well this spring. I do not want to haul water, no tanks, no external pumps, no gravity feed etc...

But I will probably have to run a generator, at least this year. And setting up a sequential shut down is not really a big thing with me. I could also monitor water flow and even get more complex, but that is not necessary.

Thanks.

JKB, tell me more about this well you are driving in. How can you be assured you'll hit water? How does the well work? Can you just located it where it's most convenient or do you have to do some ground water testing? Some details if you don't mind. I'd like to learn more about it. Thanks!

The well is a shallow well, less than 25 feet deep. The point will be driven into the ground water table, so if you know your water table you can pretty much hit water. The point I purchased is a 4 foot stainless for use in very coarse sand and gravel. So you should know what you are driving the point into.

(Finding a really good (productive)location is another subject that requires the use of a pair of stainless steel rods and the tip section of a 6 ft lightweight fishing rod, which is controversial)

It also helps to know someone who has a bit of experience. My BIL has put in several shallow wells around here. All produce good with 3 foot points. The point I have is good for 40 gpm or so, but that depends on the recharge rate. 60 gpm and production depends on the permeability of the soils.

This link explains things better than I can:
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD0951.html

Depending on your soil. You could drive a 20 ft shallow well in less than 2 hours if you rent a well driver. Basically a jack hammer with a special end tool.

Once the well is in and operational. I will build a small pump house with room for the generator, batteries and charger for the LED lighting. I like to sit out by the garden.

EDIT:I just asked my BIL and he used a small homelite gas pump on one of his shallow wells. He said it worked fine, but had to prime that unit as he did not install a foot valve. I would not mind using a gas pump, but I would like to see what the well produced first.

Thanks, JKB. I'll check out that link and see what I can learn. At this point, I know very little about the water table at our farm, but all of the 4 neighbors have wells as their primary water sources, so I know there's water there. We're getting city water by late summer as the local PSD is running a line from the main road up the lane into our subdivision, so I'll be able to tap into it, but I'd love to find an alternative to paying for any water for things like the garden. And, since we aren't building out at the farm for probably a few years still, I don't want to get into a whole bunch of site development with utilities until we have settled on where stuff needs to run to accommodate our house and all the landscaping, etc.

Thanks again for the info. I may get in touch with you about it if I have more questions.

Todd,

I'll put together a drawing of what I am planning in the next couple days.

I have to have a couple questions answered myself, mainly on freeze protection. It's going to be a couple years until I get electricity that far back. (permit and zoning process )

Pretty much everyone around here has a back up shallow well. The main wells around here average in the 190 foot range. For drinking water consideration, the minimum depth has to be at least 90 feet.

It makes no sense to risk your main well to water a garden or livestock that would be 500-600 feet from the source, nor purchase water from the utilities.

Much easier to run underground electric.

I saw a setup that was a slightly modified 3 point hitch sub-soiler, which would be quite a bit cheaper to purchase than rent a trencher. TSC sells a sub-soiler for about 150.00 and for another 10 bucks you could buy the pipe and elbow to make it work. And I need a sub-soiler anyway.

As you are on a farm, you might want to consider the purchase of a tractor. Some of my fondest memories have been at the controls of my diesel equipment. I just wish I could get my Cat forklift that far back, it would drive that shallow well, straight down in no time.

A tractor is definitely in our future, though for now I'm settling with a Cub Cadet garden tractor since all I need to do right now is mow grass. We won't have any livestock, but there's always a landscaping need here or there! Of our 30 acres, probably only about 10 would need to be mowed, and that's even pushing it a little. The rest is woods and water. Right now we've got a guy who cuts the hay for his livestock and we get a tax exemption for agricultural use since the value of the hay is at least $1000 annually. Once I get a bigger tractor, I'll probably just keep it all mowed myself. I'm definitely looking forward to making some diesel memories!

I have a Cub Cadet LT1050. The starter went nuts so that was replaced under the 3 year warranty. I also replaced all of the tires with 4 ply as my previous property had a bunch of thorns, and 2 ply were no match for the sticking things.

Fix-a-Flat don't work on two ply specially if the exhaust is warming the tire up. Next thing you know as the tire revolves, all this stuff is spurting everywhere.

Overall an excellent purchase. And it mows grass and tall weeds quite well. I use to do both sides of the road for about 1/8 mile and around mailboxes, my lawn and three neighbor lawns, all in short order. Plus the built in can holder...

When you get to the point of desiring to experience the sweet smell of diesel, make sure you post it here. I can chime in with my experiences. Once you go diesel, as they say...

Mine's a GT1554 with the 54" mower deck. Not sure about the tires, but that's a great point. I got it late in the season last year so I only mowed the more grassy areas, but I have some hills I'd like to mow at least a little way up and there is some woody-stemmed brush on it, though not too many thorns. That's a great point for me to keep in mind, though. It was a great purchase and does a great job on the roughly 3 or so acres I'll be trying to keep mowed regularly. Definitely look forward to input on a diesel real tractor one of these days. If you've never been there, the website tractorbynet is a massive source of info on tractors. I had been toying around with the idea of buying a bigger - 50 hp range - tractor shortly after we bough the property, but decided not to get into such a big expense right away. I'm glad we didn't because I really don't think that's a realistic need for what we'll be doing, though I am also a big advocate of buying more than you ever think you'll need on pretty much anything I buy because there will be that time you wish you had more if you went smaller! Just a guy trait, I guess, but if you can have your equipment/stuff do less work than it's capable of, i.e. work at 75% capacity as opposed to pushing the functional limits all the time, I think you get better longevity from it. At least that's my theory!

I hear ya Todd.

I have been on tractor-by-net as a registered member, and really good info is quite sparse. They keep sending me email's, but I can't remember my login and password. They have too many fights between Red and Green. Just don't log onto AgWeb, ya know that rural Agricultural program on Sunday mornings at 5:00am. These guys are brutal. BTW, expect Beef and Pork prices to go a bit nuts this year.

Good tools and equipment make light work out of rather time consuming tasks, and have the benefit of saving time, especially if you have to work and bill on time basis to earn a living.

If it is a time saver at all, and fit's in to your plans, even though it cost's a chunk up front. It most likely will be a benefit.

Choose your tools wisely, and if they do not contribute to the Net Gain Overall...

I like to make anything I purchase pay for itself -vs- other options. But you have to calculate what the payback would be -vs- big boy toys. Both have their merits, but one will not be a sink hole.

Overall, I am satisfied how things are going, It just takes time and patience

Just my opinion.