Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,902
Posts557,115
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,419
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,112
Who's Online Now
3 members (esshup, Bobbss, teehjaeh57), 730 guests, and 230 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#20551 02/17/04 10:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 93
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 93
I would appreciate some comments on taking big bass 5 to 8 lbs from a 25 acre lake.Myself and a buddy of mine have just been given permission to fish this lake. Most of the people who fish it fish for BG and shellcracker. Not a lot of bass pressure. I am trying to convence him that we have to put these big bass back in. An occasional wall mount is ok but he is commiting the cardinal sin as far as I am concerned by taking these bass home for the pan. In the last 5 trips he has removed 7 fish between 6 to 8 lbs and about 30 between 3 to 5. The lake is full of shad and is on a fertilization program. I have tried to convence him to eat the 2 and 3 pound fish and release the 5 plus pound fish. He thinks it does not hurt the lake to remove these fish due to its size. I think that if he heres it from some of you guys that know what you are talking about then I can convince him. Thanks for the help.

Jake

#20552 02/17/04 10:36 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
G
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
G
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
Jake I agree with you. If you wish have him call me. Do you get Georgia OUtdoor News? I writing a three part series on ponds. The first was out last month on construction. The March issue will be on fish stocking and the APril issue on pond management and I will mention selective harvest. You might want to pick it up and most any store. Also have an article on my website about harvest that should help argue your case. Good luck, sounds like a great place to fish, and hate to see it ruined.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
#20553 02/18/04 08:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 112
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 112
I've written three notes and had to erase them all. Sometimes I have to stop and remember where I was 15 years ago and how much I have changed.

The greatest thrill is to catch a double digit fish. You grow these by leaving everything over 16" and eating everything under 16".

The 5-8lbs. are fun to catch but once you eat them you or nobody else will ever get to enjoy catching them again.

Good luck on educating your buddy.

#20554 02/18/04 08:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
Fish do not grow any bigger once they hit the frying pan. The more bigger bass you leave in the lake the more often you will catch bigger fish. And vice versa, the more bigger ones you take out, the more often you catch smaller fish. This assumes there is a predator - prey balance. Why would one honestly expect any thing different when you actually think about what you are doing? How can you catch bigger fish more often if they have been previously removed?. It is a size management process. The numbers of bass in each size group become smaller with each increase in size group. For instance there are many more bass in the 4"-6" group than in the 12"-14" size group and more 12"-14"'s than in the 24"-26" size group. The "fish fairy" does not magically put more big fish back in the lake overnight to replace the ones that are removed. It takes quite a bit of time (usually numerous years) to grow truly big fish. Big fish are a RESOURCE. You don't cut big trees out of your lot and expect them to be quickly replaced by new big trees. Lumber companies wish it was that easy.

Many fishermen think the underwater resource is limitless simply because they cannot actually see beneath the surface and the fishing is CURRENTLY great. But with heavy harvest those same fishermen are soon saying this lake is "fished out". And it may well be severly fished down with overharvest of large fish. Restraint, usually "required by law" is the only thing that allows the resource to recover from heavy and often naive or foolish harvest.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
#20555 02/24/04 08:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 97
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,346
Likes: 97
Permit me to be blunt.
Eating a bass larger than four pounds is like eating the family dog.
Large bass have beaten astronomical odds to grow large. They deserve a better fate than a skillet.
Look at bass larger than 5 pounds with reverence. Be awed. Not only have these bass eaten a lot, they have avoided being eaten...a lot.
An eight pound bass is probably six years old. It has lived only half its "normal" life.
In a "great" 25 acre trophy bass lake, there are likely fewer than 25 bass larger than six pounds.
Tell your bud to let the fish go, or you are changing friends.
In my most humble opinion, eating a big bass should be a felony.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
#20556 02/25/04 01:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
An eight pound bass is even older up here in the northern states and rarely ever gets that big. Probably well over 10 years maybe 15 or even possible 18 years old.

A five pound bass up here is typically 7 to 9 years old.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






#20557 02/25/04 11:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 182
S
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
S
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 182
Anyone eating a 8 pound bass should have their toe's cut off and fed to that bass!
I agree with Cecil it takes almost 7 to 9 years up in the northern states to reach this goal, take a picture and let em go.
Scott


Scott Trava
Catskill Pond
http://catskillpond.com
scott@catskillpond.com
Returning Catskill Waters To A Simpler Time
EST. 1923
#20558 02/25/04 08:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
I agree completely with Doctor Bob and thanks for being blunt. Bob presents a true opinion and very valuable advice regarding the stature of big largemouths. In fact his advice applies to all species of truly large or trophy fish. Treat them with the respect they deserve. Routine harvesting of trophy fish shows a "rapist" attitude and lack of knowledge of how nature works and an overall lack of appreciation for nature. It is a "gimme it's mine" and "taker" attitude.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
#20559 02/25/04 11:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
On the other hand isn't the reverse a problem in many waters? I have heard with the catch and release mentallity many ponds owners realease all their bass which makes them bass heavy.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






#20560 02/26/04 10:02 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 112
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 112
Bob, are you serious that a great 25 acre trophy bass lake only has 25 bass over 6lbs. ?
I would have thought there might be at least 75-100. Educate me, please ?

#20561 02/26/04 02:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 105
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 105
Bob, I need you to clarify something for me. I think I have heard you say that a pond only supports so many pounds of bass. For instance if you can support 10 lbs of bass you can choose 1-10 lb bass or 2-5 lbs bass or 3-3.33 lb bass, etc.
I know you can help the fish by fertilization but let's say a pond carries 10 lbs of bass. If your goal is to catch more bass if you only have that 1-10 lb bass your going to have fewer opportunities to catch fish than if you have 5-2 lbers. Our goal is to be able to give people an opportunity to catch more #'s of fish in the medium(2-6 lbs)range than going catchless but every once in a while catching a really big fish. So we have been taking out everything <12" and in theory taking out everything over 6 lbs. Anyone please comment on our system and based upon our goals where they would find fault with it. Interesting topic!

#20562 02/26/04 02:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
David and Buzz -- I can't completely answer your questions, but I can make one point that might help this discussion.

Remember that some fish in a population will die every year from natural causes, regardless of whether they are harvested by anglers or not.

For largemouth bass in Texas, let me make a guess that perhaps that "rate" is about 45%.

So, let's assume that you have a year class of 1,000 age-1 largemouth bass alive in your 10-acre pond this spring. Below, I'll "do the math" showing what percent will still be alive out through age 10. 45% dying each year means that 55% will live, so 55% of the original 1,000 means that 550 will still be alive at age 2. Then, continue that through the older ages.

Age 1: 1,000
Age 2: 550
Age 3: 303
Age 4: 166
Age 5: 92
Age 6: 50
Age 7: 28
Age 8: 15
Age 9: 8
Age 10: 5

It gets awful warm in Texas, and the bass grow fast. In general, the faster the bass grow, the younger they die. So, Bob may actually tell us that the average annual mortality for largemouths is greater than 45%, and in that case, there would be even fewer older fish expected.

Now, hopefully Bob will come on board and 1) answer your original questions completely, and 2) tell us if my guess of 45% annual mortality is about right for largemouth bass in Texas. This is a simple example of some complex information, and we'll see if Bob "buys" it.

Dave


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#20563 02/26/04 04:29 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 336
S
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
S
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 336
I have recently put some good sized (3-4 pound) bass in my pond, mostly through the Great Prairie Bass Migration method (back of a truck in a bucket), with the full cooperation of the original owners. I then told all fishing my pond that the quickest way to no longer be invited was to keep one of these larger bass. I have a multitude of smaller but fillet-able bass that they are more than welcome, even encouraged, to cook up.

Dave, I would argue your point on one small fact. I would guess that your linear demise of bass doesn't accurately show how many fish survive each year. My guess would be that 75%-85% become lunch in their first year or two, but then the survival rate increases over time. The important thing here is that there are only a handful of fish over about 6 years old or so, so even removal of a couple of fish has a dramatic effect over the next 3 or 4 years.

Showing your data: I would argue

Age 1: 1,000 1000
Age 2: 550 250
Age 3: 303 100
Age 4: 166 50
Age 5: 92 25
Age 6: 50 20
Age 7: 28 14
Age 8: 15 9
Age 9: 8 7
Age 10: 5 5


Shawn

#20564 02/26/04 04:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Good job, Shawn. You're either a biologist, or just have the "knack!"

You are absolutely right. My overly simple example is linear, and not all that descriptive of Mother Nature. It's any easy way to make the point to new landowners that just because you stocked 300 bass, you don't necessarily have all 300 of them still alive 5 years later at a large size.

Fishes in general do indeed have that type of "curvilinear" survival that you used. Ecologists call that more of an "L-shaped" mortality curve. Steeper early (high mortality rate), and then more gradual (lower mortality rate) as they get older.

I always wonder if there isn't a little increase in mortality rate near the end sometimes, too. That's hard to study, though. Too few fish left by then.

Anyway, do you want to come and teach my fisheries class for me tomorrow??

Dave


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#20565 02/26/04 05:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 336
S
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
S
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 336
With a bowed head and blush-reddened face, I apologize for "correcting" Dave. A quick look at his bio (on the SD State site) reminds me to look before I leap! Just goes to show if I were a fish, I would have sucked down one of those $15 Homer Simpson lures long ago!


Shawn

#20566 02/26/04 05:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Dave,

Would this also apply to feed trained bass that are planted as almost 2 year old and are fed pellets on a continual basis? If not how would you modify it? I don't depend on reproduction in my pond and will be planting 300 more 10 inch bass in a pond that is only .62 acres. I may have 50 to 100 bass in the pond now that are 12 to 20 inches. As you may know I grow them out and sell them at larger sizes.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






#20567 02/26/04 08:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
I can't wait for Dr. Bob to arrive; I want to add my two cents now. Plus I will be out of town for a week.
Dr. Dave W. and Shawn both basically arrive at the same answer; few true trophy bass per acre in natural populations. Dave has over simplified his example so most can easily understand the concept. Shawn has probably observed the "curvilinear" feature of bass populations found that the true picture is not quite so simple.

Cecil's example is not a natural developing population and population structure is mostly artificial or manipulated but his stockings of larger fish are still subject to mortality (internal & external forces) esp at the crowded densities.

I want to add some more complexity to the topic and mention other variables which affect number of trophy fish in a populaiton such as: different growth rates among individuals, variability in individual longevity, mixture of age classes, and variability of stressors among different habitats. Plus I did not include the mortality impacts from fishermen (harvest or release) which can be significiant. All have an impact on the survival of large fish in natural populations.

Bottom line is, as Bob originally said, trophy bass have beaten astronomical odds and few naturally exist per acre unless special provisions have been made to select for their presence. Even then they deserve a special place in nature and should be held in reverence, awe & respect; not in a frying pan.

Buss T. I think your selective removal of bass should result in a population of bass that is "heavy" toward the middle-weight category of bass, providing you also maintain adequate forage.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
#20568 02/27/04 12:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
This may be unpopular but I do have something to say here as a taxidermist.

If 7 or 8 pounds is as big as they get up here in the north, wouldn't it be a waste of a resource to throw back a bass that is very close to it's maximum lifespan and probably is contributing very little to the gene pool? Of course being a taxidermist I'm not biased one bit. LOL

I'm talking about the head kahuna of the pond not all the big bass in the pond.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






#20569 02/27/04 10:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
D
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,587
Boy, we’re turning this into quite the discussion, aren’t we???

Cecil: let’s start with your question about mortality rates in the culture pond. I read your question last night, thought about it all night and this morning, and I still can’t answer your question. One of the problems with being a teacher is that I have to generalize to make points to students. If something “works” 80% of the time out in Mother Nature, then I teach it as a pretty darn important point, and the students then think it must be 100% true. There is just too much variability out there. Bill Cody is actually discussing the same types of things in his good list of the items that make all of this so variable, which ends up making it so darn hard to generalize. I’m sure we drive the laymen crazy!! :-)

Now, having included all of these disclaimers, Cecil: I still would expect, most of the time, to see some type of annual mortality. In wild populations, time after time, you see declines in number as fish age. At southern latitudes and faster growth rates, the mortality rate is higher and the maximum age is younger. At northern latitudes and slower growth rates with shorter growing seasons, the mortality rate will be lower and maximum age increases. See, I just taught another generality. It’s true 80% of the time, give or take, and there are certainly exceptions to the rule. In a culture pond, where fish are below the maximum biomass that can be supported by the system and your feeding regime, you could certainly be in an exception situation. I just don’t have the experience to know what to expect in your case. In wild bass populations in PA, I’d think that a 35-40% total annual mortality rate would occur, even in unfished populations. How much lower you might be, and for how long, I honestly don’t know.

Cecil – yes, I sure remembered about the growing and selling of fish. Love your web site!!

Bill – very nice job on your comments.

Shawn – I responded to your private message. Thanks for the kind words.

Cecil (on the taxidermy fish): You actually make a valid management point that state agencies have to consider. If we want to manage a water body for “trophy” fish, let’s say largemouth bass in a Texas power plant cooling reservoir, we might use something cool like an 18 inch maximum length limit. That is, anglers could keep the smaller bass to keep the population thinned, but then all 18 inch and longer bass would immediately have to be released upon capture. However, the bass would die of old age. Thus, should a state management agency really use the 18 inch maximum, or would it be better to have some type of a high, protected slot regulation. Now, I’ve NEVER worked with bass this big, so I’m just guessing. BUT, would it be better to have a 18 to 28 inch protected slot length limit?? If someone catches a bass over 28 inches, it probably is about to die. Would it be OK to let that person keep the fish and put it on the wall?? We do serve a variety of user groups, and we should consider the diversity in desires/opinions of those angler groups. That is a valid consideration, I’d say. However, with all the graphite replicas available, do we really need to kill her? Maybe she’d be the one who will survive to world record size, despite astronomical odds? How’s that for trying to ride the fence???? :-)

Dave


Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
#20570 02/27/04 04:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,112
Likes: 478
To All. Bob may not get to respond to this topic. He has now started field work.

Cecil You make a valid point about keeping trophy bass for mounting. But in the first topic starter the bass were going in the frying pan not the wall. I do not object to taking the occasional trophy for the wall. Emphasis on occassional. I think most of us were generalizing about indescriminate harvest of trophies for the frying pan with the assumption that the heavy harvest would eventually hurt the trophy sized bass population.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
#20571 02/29/04 12:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 336
S
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
S
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 336
So all this said about carrying capacity and what not, are there other factors that limit the size of bass in the pond? For example, say that a pond has a carrying capacity of 50 lbs/acre for bass(simplified by only bass and bg in the pond.) However, in this particular pond, there are present only 40 lbs/acre of bass, but with 2 eight lbs. bass (16lbs.), 3 five lbs bass (31 total), and 9 1 lbs. bass (40 lbs). While not a likely scenario, it might be possible, especially in a slot limit, high pressure situation. Does the presence of more heavy bass limit the population as a whole from gaining its full potential (50lbs./acre) through canniblizm or some other method? In the instance of shad, I've read here that they secrete a hormone or something that limits reproduction in overpopulation situations. Is there any kind of process or behavior that bass might do the same thing? I guess written as a point blank question, would the presence of large bass in an unconstrained environment effect growth rates of the population as a whole? Maybe I'm way off, but it is a rainy Sunday afternoon and I can't go fishing, so here I am at least reading about fishing. Next best thing!


Shawn

#20572 03/01/04 09:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 93
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 93
Thanks to all that commented. I have printed of all these comments from this subject and passed them along to my buddy. As I initially stated I agree that these big bass for the pan is just down right disgusting. All I can do is try to educate him. He is a good friend but this is one subject that I stand firm on. Thanks again to all.

Jake

#20573 09/29/04 10:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
J
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
I live on an 18 acre lake in Iowa which is about 25 years old and has pretty much always been catch and release for bass (other than those that were "poached". About 3-4 years ago it seems that the ratio of big fish was pretty good, and one could catch many bass of all sizes. now it seems there are tons of fish < 12", few between 13-16 and then very few 20+ inch lunkers. Some of the fish seem skinny or almost emaciated, although that seems to have improved the last 6 months. I have suggested a selective harvest of smaller fish/bass. Is this a good idea? How many fish per acre would be a good starting point? I should note that there are also bluegill, channel cats, and some crappie as well as a few bullhead. The bluegill seem to be bigger but less plentiful now. thanks in advance


jjpatton
#20574 09/29/04 10:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
J
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
J
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
sorry, should have started a new post for this one but it kind of relates. Fyi- insightful posts on the lunkers, i agree completely that anything over 3-4 lbs should be released unharmed. Note my size is a little smaller, but i am from iowa after all.


jjpatton

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
cro, HC1968
Recent Posts
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/29/24 01:06 AM
pond experience needed
by esshup - 03/29/24 12:45 AM
Alum vs Bentonite/Lathanum for Phosphorus Removal?
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 08:28 PM
New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?
by Bill Cody - 03/28/24 07:57 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by FireIsHot - 03/28/24 07:33 PM
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by PRCS - 03/28/24 06:39 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Dylanfrely - 03/28/24 05:43 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5