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 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I wonder how many visit, read, learn, and leave without posting or buying anything? Are they in the minority or majority?
....
Increasing subscriptions. Why don't pondowners subscribe? Considering how many ponds are in the USA, the number os subscribers is way less than 0.5%. Is it they really don't care about their pond enough to spend $35.00 per year, or is it they don't get enough applied how-to-do-it information from the mag to make it worth spending $35.00 or is it they don't even know about the magazine?

Maybe the question is "are they even interested in what we are discussing?" If we use the input we have gathered on our Why Do You Own a Pond thread, it is apparent that there is alot of interest beyond the fish part of it.

 Quote:
Determine what bait it takes to entice average "Joe" pondowner to bite. Then tie up that bait and present it in an irrestible fashion.

A pond is a diamond in the rough. As pondmeisters, each of us hones the facets into that piece of compressed carbon to create a precious gem. Each facet that we hone gives the diamond another dimension, increasing it's value. A quality fishery is one facet, and the main thrust of Pond Boss. As a budding pondologist, I have taken measured steps to create the fish facet. I could only do it correctly with the guidance of the Pond Boss core moderator team. For this facet, Pond Boss was invaluable and I am grateful. I have many more facets to hone, though. They all exist above the waterline in the form of wildlife habitat, flora, and human habitat. Guidance regarding these facets is poorly represented within Pond Boss. Yes, Dan VanS does a great job with his articles, but I find most are larger in scope and don't relate directly to small time pond perimeter development. Yes, we see an occassional article about wood duck housing or similar, but nothing consistent and expanded in a larger category of wildlife habitat development.
To me, Pond Boss is 70% fish, 15% pond construction, 5% weeds and aeration, and 10% other. I don't care all that much about the fish. The pond construction is done, so that's behind me. Weeds and aeration are a non-issue. I don't know...maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'll have problems with that stuff later, but for now, that first 90% of the PB thrust is pretty boring for me. For me, it's all about life above the surface; that last 10%.
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For the record, I subscribe to the mag. I have for 4 years. In all honesty, I never read it cover-to-cover. In fact, I can go through it in one hour and I'm done. I subscribe because I feel that, if nothing else, I owed at least that much to you guys for helping me along with pond construction and fish stocking. Like I said, I am grateful and will likely never be able to pay you back for that assistance. But that stuff is behind me and now I seek guidance and advice and comeradery on bird houses/nesting structures, critter stuff, flowers, grasses, trees, shrubs, boat docks, pavillions, fire pits, gazebos, and pond-side cottages or houses. You know, that other 10%.
I'll bet I'm not alone.

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...being "new," I don't have any suggestions (I agree with most of what everyone else has suggested or commented on)....

I just want to say that I am a magazine addict :)!!! I buy tons of magazines on every subject you can imagine...so, I have experience on the subject! You should be proud with the beauty and quality of the magazine... the content and appearence are both impressive. Each issue is a whole new experience. I haven't seen any other magazine to match the quality. So.... it is well worth the price of subscription. You could most definitely increase the price of yearly subscription and I don't think many would complain.

I spoke with a very nice gentleman this week who has a 178 acre pond with many species of fish in it. He happened to see something on my site about bass being fed fish food.... he had never heard of that so I realized he didn't know about you guys. I was so PROUD to tell him all about you!!!! He couldn't wait to get off the phone with me and check you out!

Taking care of a pond is dag-on hard work...you have created a place for people to come together and vent, brag, and figure things out. You've created a community of individuals who are now a family..... and I feel they will help Pond Boss in any way they can for it to continue to succeed.

We're proud to be a part of it!
Stacy

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Thank you Brettski, I appreciate what you wrote there... Although I love fish, I can understand your view point on where you would like to see at least a portion of PB go.

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With regards to posting pictures. Most times you can just copy and paste image URL's without photobucket or picasa, if it is already online. That doesn't even register on any gripe meter around here.

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quote JKB "With regards to posting pictures. Most times you can just copy and paste image URL's without photobucket or picasa, if it is already online. That doesn't even register on any gripe meter around here."

I just tried that with random photos of guitars. The 1st one had a URL of 12 lines. The next one I copied and pasted. The image was small and in the upper left hand corner of the page when I opened the link on this forum. An example would help.
I need more convincing.

Last edited by burgermeister; 02/22/10 12:43 AM.

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When I found the forum I didn't join right away. I lurked for a while to see what it had to offer. If I had to pay up front I would have went elsewhere. Reading the forum, learning and laughing is what got me hooked. I thought well if the forum is this good I want to see the magazine so I subscribed. Then I thought if the mag is this good I want to see the books so I got them. Then I thought if the rest of this is so good I want to attend a conference and I did.

I did all these things because the forum was free and got me hooked. A free read only forum may have accomplished the same thing it's hard to say. I think making the forum a pay site would bring in more $$$ short term but hurt long term growth of the mag because people surfing the net for pond management would bypass the site. Plus how would locking the forum to paid members affect Internet search engine results. Someone typing in "feed trained bass" into google wouldn't get this forum as a result if it were pay to see. If it does become a pay forum then mag subscribers should get it included with subscription.

Regarding some of the other topics I still much prefer the portable paper version of the mag.

As far as growing the mag maybe try to work with those who advertise in the mag to see if they would include a flyer with their merchendise packaging. I think Bob metioned he did this with Game Fish Chow before but don't know if this is still being done or could be expanded.


Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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Just look at my last two posts on this thread:
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=205129#Post205129

One with the squirrel with it's head in a coffee cup and the other with the .224-.338.

Both were done by copy image URL and pasted by clicking "enter image" when making a reply. Just make sure you hit a backspace to eliminate the (http://) that is default. This should be deleted if possible by the exec's and causes a fair amount of problems posting pic,s.

Try it. You can right click on any pic on this site, copy URL, click enter image, delete the http stuff and paste.

Should be good to go. I do not have these pictures in photobucket or picasa, nor do I have them stored anywhere on the net, or even on my computers.

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 Originally Posted By: JKB
Just look at my last two posts on this thread:
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=205129#Post205129

One with the squirrel with it's head in a coffee cup and the other with the .224-.338.

Both were done by copy image URL and pasted by clicking "enter image" when making a reply. Just make sure you hit a backspace to eliminate the (http://) that is default. This should be deleted if possible by the exec's and causes a fair amount of problems posting pic,s.

Try it. You can right click on any pic on this site, copy URL, click enter image, delete the http stuff and paste.

Should be good to go. I do not have these pictures in photobucket or picasa, nor do I have them stored anywhere on the net, or even on my computers.


Now I am Theo! I am sure He is thrilled!


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idigitalcitizen.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/radioactive_man_300.jpg

No bueno!

Last edited by burgermeister; 02/22/10 08:46 AM.

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 Originally Posted By: JKB
Now I am Theo! I am sure He is thrilled!


That actually happens more often than you might think. No problem in your case, certainly.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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 Originally Posted By: MikeyBoy
Personally, as someone who has enough trouble paying his bills, I would be a little saddened for this place to cost money.

Not to call you out for your financial difficulty, Mikey, but just to say that this, in fact, would be the attitude of any newcomer to the forum. In order to drive a conversion to start more $$ coming into the biz, shutting the forum off from consumers is not the way (in my experience).

I think i've voiced this opinion on this forum before, but just to reiterate, instead of making newcomers pay for what is most certainly the best attractor of new customers, it would be better to have other perks for subscribers (to the mag or the premium forum, whatever the case may be). This could be discounts on PB merchandise, access to the premium section, etc.

Making people pay to see or post in the forum I think would be a mistake in the long term. While some may still sign up, and certainly any lurkers who are that interested would initially convert, the rate of conversions from visits will drop drastically after short time. I'm not saying it still wouldn't be profitable, Just that there may be a more profitable path than a pay to post forum. At the very least, a pay to post, but free to read, with a blocked "premium" section that the average lurker cannot get into would be the most drastic change that would be effective (If the powers that be are insistent on blocking parts of the forum). The more that is free to access for the customer the better.


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The fish would stay out of trouble if it could just keep its fool mouth shut.
Turns out there is a lot I should be learning from the fish.
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 Originally Posted By: CoachB
I agree with ewest that you want to create a place where you can bring people in. The forum is what brought me to Pond Boss. After I was digging onto forums, I bought the magazine and a few books. If you cut people off with costs up front, they will leave. The will never discover what a great resource Pond Boss is.

(...)

At this point I would pay for the forums and the resources, but I would have never visited if I had to pay to get started.

Brian

Exactly. This is the behavior of 99% of users on the web. cutting them off would be a HUGE mistake (please remember these are just my opinions).


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The fish would stay out of trouble if it could just keep its fool mouth shut.
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 Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
You couldn't charge me enough to make me leave.

I figure I've saved between 25,000-50,000 bucks by being a member of this site. Countless mistakes not made.


This is a good, valid point. But in all honesty, the goal is to expand the readership, right? of both the forum and the magazine, and make some money off of it? Not all people interested in the pondboss community will be spending much money on their respective BOW's, so this might not be a draw for most people.

The costs, for me, would outweigh the savings. Look at people in my situation, i have a HOA to deal with that has a tight deathgrip on its purse strings. Would you want to lose me and the rest of the interested parties like me by charging up front?

Please excuse me as i go through this forum to make my case. I am very interested in seeing a profitable path for Bob, Mike & crew (vicariously the rest of you professional managers too...as it reasonably follows that the more interested parties on the forum means the more interested parties inquiring about professionals in the area to do electrofishing, seine, chemical treatments etc)


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The fish would stay out of trouble if it could just keep its fool mouth shut.
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 Originally Posted By: Ric Swaim
Def. fix search engine.

that's the key, as far as i see it. I don't know if this is in reference to the internal search, but the way I take it is to improve the visibility of the site on google, yahoo and ask geeves. as was stated in another thread, lead enough horses to water and some of them are sure to be thirsty. A disorganized, buckshot approach, maybe, but always a successful one.

 Quote:
Or, a "gold" membership, where you can have access to all the website, along with a "members only" forum where you get specific advice to specific problems from the top pros in the industry? This membership also includes a subscription to the magazine.

I like this idea. I know a few forum owners who profit off of this. They don't get everyone to pay, but they do get a few. Adding it as a perk to subscribe to the magazine would be an outstanding idea.



[/quote]


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The fish would stay out of trouble if it could just keep its fool mouth shut.
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 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I wonder how many visit, read, learn, and leave without posting or buying anything? Are they in the minority or majority?

does the site have google analytics? that would answer a lot of these questions. If not, it is free, and supplies a wealth of information about the visitors to the site. I've never seen it used on a forum, but the good folks at google could tell you everything you need to know about how to use it.
 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody

It does definately take money to make this website go. It is very valuable if you have a pond and want some answers from people with experience. So, so many have never heard of it. The trick is to lure them, jiggle the bait just right, and then do a little catch & release - although no harvesting is allowed. I doubt any overpopulation will occur.
We are of like minds here. Unfortunately, I don't think that the concept of "juggle the bait" means take the lure away after a little bit,, even the fairly conservative 90 day trial membership i saw posted earlier(in this terrible analogy i am setting up the lure is the forum and the helpful folks on it).
 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Why don't pondowners subscribe? Considering how many ponds are in the USA, the number os subscribers is way less than 0.5%.
in my mind that is the question that needs answering.
 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
or is it they don't even know about the magazine?
and in my mind, that is the answer.


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As someone who values the information on the forum but only sporadically posts, I thought I'd offer my thoughts on this topic. First of all, I suspect that charging for basic access to the forum will eventually kill the long-term development of the forum. This is covered above.

Second, I don't see any problem with charging for certain "premium" content. In my mind, this could include the e-magazine and/or additional articles/resources. Frankly, I would suggest removing the archives from the "free" part of the forum. Then, ask someone (?) to edit those materials into more user-friendly segments. This would become the initial "premium" content. Maybe portions of the books could be placed in the "premium" content as well.

I think most people would much more readily accept advertising than subscription fees.

Additionally, I would like to chime in along the same lines as Brettski. If the site moves to a paid site, I think its important to clarify the focus of the site. I very much value the information on managing fish. This is clearly the focus of the expertise of many existing forum members. However, there are many pond-related topics that really are not covered in detail by the existing materials on this site. Having recently built my pond, I am currently struggling with issues regarding the best marginal and emergent plants for around the pond, tranporting trout, building an outdoor patio/kitchen, and how best to build a walkway to get through some wet areas. There is some information on this site, but much of the information I've found comes from other sources. I think any move to premium content should be accompanied by a concerted effort to clarify the site's focus and perhaps expand the range of "premium" information available. If you Google "Ponds", you will see that most people interested in "ponds" are not actually focused on fish. If you Google "Fish Ponds," you will find that people interested in fish ponds are often focused on koi or other ornamental fish. I don't have a garden pond or a koi pond, but I do sometimes visit those sites to get information to help manage my "pond."


For my part, I would pay a subscription fee for the same reason I subscribe to the magazine--it will be worth it for me and I'd like to support a site that has supported me. I would not have done so at the outset. I like the print copy of the magazine, but am not wedded to it. I probably would not buy the print copy if I obtained an e-copy as part of a forum subscription or other fee.

Hope this helps.


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 Originally Posted By: MikeyBoy

Would it be possible to sell ad space on the site? Currently I see no ad's and generally advertisers will pay for that space. This site probably gets enough traffic to keep some people interested in having ad space on it (...)
I totally understand needing finding a way for the forum to support itself better, I just think maybe there are better ways then charging for access to the site.

A great point....reduce the number of lurkers, even, and ad space becomes less valuable. And honestly, it is much more likely to be a profitable venture to sell ad space than it is to charge for membership (basic membership at least).


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The fish would stay out of trouble if it could just keep its fool mouth shut.
Turns out there is a lot I should be learning from the fish.
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and so that is where i stand. I haven't been here as long as the rest of you, but i fell in love with this forum by being able to participate. It also didn't take long for me to subscribe (it's a father's day present...)
Taking away the ability to participate, i feel, would be a large mistake. The majority of new users won't understand how awesome this forum is, and will not want to pay to post. Honestly, i thought i would have posted a line, talked to a few guys, and never come back.
As I am sure that i've annoyed at least half of the usual suspects at this point, you should all know that isn't true. I'm most likely here to stay ;\)
This forum has the potential to convert. It does. What that conversion is is up to speculation, whether it is a mag subscription, a new job for a pond management consultant on the site, a "premium" forum subscription, whatever. taking away the ability to participate lowers the site's ability to convert.
Honestly, I think that this place is awesome. All of you guys rock, and I couldn't have found a better place to talk ponds & fish. I even use this as my bragging board for fishing now.
But I almost didn't find it, which is what i think the real problem is. As another poster pointed out, the only thing that shows up in google is a 1987 dental hygienist award.
thanks for all of your time, patience, and all of your rockin' advice, even when green sunfish are involved.

Last edited by skinnybass; 02/22/10 10:16 AM. Reason: the GSF made me do it.

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 Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
Talk to skinny bass about search engines and marketing the site, that is his deal.

I would be more than happy to lend my opinions on this end. It might be hard to get me to shut up about it. I'm irish, outspoken and longwinded. Sorry 'bout that.

Last edited by skinnybass; 02/22/10 10:24 AM. Reason: the GSF made me do it. Again.

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 Quote:
A) What are your opinions of paying a nominal annual fee to be a member of the forum?

I personally wouldn't mind since I've been here so long, and have gained so much. But, I believe it would severely restrict the addition of new members.

 Quote:
B) Would you rather have a copy of the magazine in the mail, or an e-magazine?

I would like both. I've done this with our local newspaper and with the Wall Street Journal. I get a lot of magazines, and in many cases I actually want them for the ads. Articles on-line are great. Technology is now at a point where copyright and sharing can be a lot more controlled.

 Quote:
C) If you got the e-magazine, would you stop subscribing to the printed copy?

Absolutely not.

 Quote:
D) How to you feel about having a free membership that has limited access to content? This may be a "read only" version of the forum. It may mean being able to access some articles, podcasts, videos, but having to pay for selected e-information.

As I said above, I think that paid access to the forum would severely affect new users. But, for access to articles, podcasts, videos -- no problem. I think that would be good business.

 Quote:
E) Then, a "small" membership fee that has access to all the content, some of which is 'pay as you go', such as some of the e-information? This includes all privileges of the forum, including posting.

EE)Or, a "gold" membership, where you can have access to all the website, along with a "members only" forum where you get specific advice to specific problems from the top pros in the industry? This membership also includes a subscription to the magazine.

I think either of the above could work.

 Quote:
F) Finally, how much is this stuff worth? What should someone pay for a "medium" membership and what would you expect to receive. And, same question for the "gold" membership.

I have no clue. I don't think we have enough demographic information to know where the "pain threshold" might be. Having attended three of the conferences, I think that our members probably range from slightly above living paycheck-to-paycheck, to being very comfortable. To be viable and useful, we need that entire range of people.

I think you've hit on the main pet peeves about the forum -- posting photos and searching. One I'd like to add is that it sure would be helpful if we could see the postings while adding a new post.

My 0.02 about photos -- I probably post as many photos taken on a personal camera as anybody else on the forum. I do find it difficult compared to other sites where I can just click on it from my camera or computer. If I look at most of my neighbors with ponds, they are very computer limited. They are farmers, sales people, excavators, trades people, restaraunt owners, etc., where daily use of a computer is not required. Asking them move photos to another site, resize them, and then do a copy and paste is well beyond many of them.

As for hijackings and other subjects -- Sometimes the hijackings get a little crazy, and this may discourage lurkers from wanting to come in. I'm not sure how this could be controlled, other than we have to self-police ourselves. I wouldn't want to have to put the burden of controlling hijackings on the moderators. (Heck, they are as bad as the rest of us!)

As for non-pond subjects, I think that many of them fall into the "nuances" that Bob spoke about at the last conference, and also wrote about recently. I feel we need this kind of diversity as it relates to our homes and ponds. It keeps people coming back when the pond is frozen over.

Ken


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Mr.Lusk, New folks like me do have a learning curve when we get on here. One good recomendation would be to have a section dedicated to fish suppliers. In other words if I live here and want to buy x fish i can click here to find the closest supplier to me. Every supplier can add their information for us to read and you can charge them x amount for the add. In return the consumer gets what they want, can ask any questions and expect to get great answers and follow up support all in one place. When a guy/gal brings up Google and types fish supplier you need to ensure your website is the first one brought up every time. Google charges you a bit for each "hit" but you get 24/7 coverage and many more people learn about your website. Which is the main problem that i see here where I live...i have not spoken to a single person that has ever heard about your magazine or website. I give my old mags to them (begrudgingly) so they know bout the mag and the website. Good luck.


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 Originally Posted By: rcn11thacr
Mr.Lusk, New folks like me do have a learning curve when we get on here. One good recomendation would be to have a section dedicated to fish suppliers.
He makes a good point with being able to find local services. what about a geographically based section of the site? just one page, basically a goolge map where subscribers can advertise their pond management businesses? that would bring more pond managers and business owners to the site, and through them, potentially their clients too. A small charge to advertise would likely lessen the amount of you consultants who want to ad, especially in the beginning while conversions are low. But it is a good idea.
 Originally Posted By: rcn11thacr
Google charges you a bit for each "hit" but you get 24/7 coverage and many more people learn about your website. Which is the main problem that i see here where I live...i have not spoken to a single person that has ever heard about your magazine or website.
Paid ads would be a good place to start, but SEO would be best in the long-term. Pay per click ads have certain costs, and if you aren't converting to the course you like, it can become a drain on your finances. However, that being said, i doubt (compared to other niches) that fish stocking and pond management are very expensive Kyewords to bid on in google adwords or yahoo paid, wherever. I'm not a ppc expert, so i may be biased to point out the downsides (cost), but SEO will get you to the top for your chosen keywords without the daily costs.

Last edited by skinnybass; 02/22/10 10:33 AM.

Trying to help with 7.5 Acres in the Chain of Lakes Illinois
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The fish would stay out of trouble if it could just keep its fool mouth shut.
Turns out there is a lot I should be learning from the fish.
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I like the idea about geographically searchable suppliers. I still don't have a good answer for anybody that asks me who to use to dig a pond in this area.

I seriously doubt that I would have come here if it was a "pay to play" place. Now that I see how great a place this is, I would. How much? It all depends.

I like the idea of the "ask an expert", for a fee, but there is a LOT of great information on here for free.

But, I'm assuming that a lot of the stuff that's being tossed around here would put a resource drain on PB, maybe so much that a person would have to work on the site full time for a while to get it dialed in, which would cost $$.

I like the archives for the amount of material that is there. The archives answered a lot of my questions without having to burn up bandwidth re-asking the same questions. But, I didn't search, I just started reading and reading.

Bob, TSC has fish food, pond dye, etc. They have a small, but targeted magazine rack. Have you looked at places like that to put the rag on the shelves?

None of the pond owners that I've talked to in person has known about PB. Most are not computer savvy, so for them print would be the way to go.

Just like Brettski said, it isn't just about the ponds, it's also about the stuff above the water as well.

As a side note, I found an arborist forum because of the chainsaw search. over 46,000 registered members, going on 2 million posts.

Last edited by esshup; 02/22/10 10:57 AM. Reason: arborist stuff

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I am new, and so it was only recently that I realized the scope of the site. My initial impression was that it was only a forum. Maybe I'm not too observant. One thing that I am versed in is advertising and I really believe that it is the best avenue to take in terms of a steady source of sustainable income for the site. It takes some effort, but there are sponsors who would love the exposure that is available here. If you're not already, begin posting some of the videos to the social networking sites, ie. Youtube, etc. and then point them to the magazine and the forum. Advertisers pay close attention to the hits.
I am an exec. for a company that produces web and TV shows and listings for real estate companies. We are the largest of our kind and we are growing rapidly. Securing advertising for our productions is largely how we have expanded. I'd be glad to offer my input if needed. I really appreciate the value of the information I've gained and have put many ideas to work already on my body of water.

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