Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait PB may/june09 Science & the cutting edge....

Alright folks get out your back issues of pond boss and read page 52 of the may/june issue of 2009. About 3/4 the way through this read there is a http web link that i googled and googled without success. The basic jest of the story is "Population, Size, Survival, and Growth of Largemouth Bass One Year After Stocking in Four Ponds". This is based on data for southern ponds only... I had more questions than answers after reading the entire story for the third time. The private fisheries scientist presenters at last years pb conference recomended stocking small bluegill at 2,000 per acre in new southern largemouth ponds to achieve good growth rates, set the stage for adequate forage populations and defer inevitible slot limit bass harvest. This seems as a balancing act for managing population densities and food supply. I never felt while reading this story that this was more than an opinion of the few than rather than an agreement of the masses. Nowhere did it state, do this at your own risk or this is a great idea for everyone. I ask these questions due to the fact that i have a new pond that was just stocked this jan with 2500 FHM, 500 BG, and 160 RES. I do not currently plan to add LMB for 12-15 months and then i will only be adding 40 to 50 max. I have an areator, depths of 6,12, and 18 ft. and what i feel is plenty of structure and cover in the pond. Now would be the time for me to add BG if this stocking rate is the "new way to go". Since this story obviously looks like the opinions of the few, i would like forum readers to tell me what they think of this. Expert opinions would be greatly appreciated...

Glad the article sparked some interest. That is one reason they are written - and to provide new science (new ideas and old ones tested). That is why it is titled "The Cutting Edge".

The Cutting Edge is designed as a summary of one or more studies of recent vintage that should interest pond owners/managers. The studies are not the work of the author or Pond Boss. This one came from the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies a highly respected group. Click here http://seafwa.org/proceedings.php?article=1442&key=2005&page=4#details and then click pdf for the study. The mag cite is correct.

We can try to answer your questions about the material. A few things to keep in mind as we do. The study is not an opinion. It is a report of the facts observed under the conditions stated unless the author states it is his opinion. This one is a snap-shot in time (one year after stocking). Here are some critical parts of the PB article or the study to set the stage. The color text is for info or emphasis.

“Although pond management has traditionally focused on maximizing fish production , in recent years a paradigm shift has occurred where many pond owners desire to maximize trophy largemouth bass production” Its about the goals.

“This study plus current recommendations of 2000 stock size bluegill per acre appear to be a remedy for the tendency of southern ponds to quickly (2 to 3 years) get bass crowded.”

“It is interesting that its conclusions are similar to those expressed in the studies discussed in the last Cutting Edge column - While there is a lot to consider about the process of successfully stocking largemouth bass (or other species) … studies emphasize two absolutely critical basic biologic requirements - density (number of fish in competition) and forage base ( their food supply). This principle applies as well to the other fish species Pondmiesters like to grow including bluegill , smallmouth bass or hybrid striped bass . Keep the densities manageable and be sure they have lots of food to eat if you want good growth and resulting large sizes.”

How can we help ? Fire away with questions.

ewest:

Am I correct in thinking that the high BG stocking density is two fold?
1) Provides a lot of forage
2) Helps minimize LMB recruitment by thinning out eggs in the LMB nests?

Or is #2 completely outta line?

Thank you Mr.West for an intersting Science & the cutting edge article as well as your quick responce. I should not have said it was an opinion due to the fact it was based on observations, sorry bout that. I felt that since there was no room in the magazine for discussion i would like to do it in the forums. I am one of "those" pond guys that wants to have a great time learning about ponds as well as having my share of big largemouth bass. I am sure my questions would be like many other pond owners...should I try this in my pond? You only get one chance to have a new pond and I am there and would hate to miss the oportunity. How would i know if this was right for me? What steps would I need to take to find out if its right for me? If it is in fact right for me what do I do after i have stocked them at 2000 per ac.? Should I look for certain things other than what I already do, or just sit back and watch them frolic for 12-15 months b4 I put the bass in with them?

rcn11thacr first thanks for subscribing to PB mag and second for reading and then posting about what you read. Also I get called a lot of things but the only ones who call me Mr. are kids under 6.

I think the key for you is start with your goals. Do you want trophy LMB or just a healthy balanced pond ? How big is the pond ? How many fish do you plan to harvest ?

As to whether to stock more BG now keep in mind the BG already there (assuming they were 2 + inches when you stocked them) are about to (this summer) do that for you. So are the FH and RES. Time can be a substitute for larger stockings. I would suggest some supplemental feeding as the water warms.

esshup - yes on No. 2. But you have to watch that. If you get to many BG they may cause the LMB to stop spawning.

Ewest, The sir is just good manners and I teach it to my children by example, no harm intended just respect. I do look forward to each magazine and work hard just to have quiet time to read it, its a great read. The pond is 3/4 ac. and the reality is that i would be happy with a "good" pond. That being said i would not mind knowing what would be required of me if i went this route. I'd rather make an informed decision. Considering that I can go almost anywhere and find 5, 8, and 12 lb bass in my state of florida I would like to have a great LMB pond. Its interesting that you mention time being a substitute for large stockings. You are the first one that has brought it up after I have mentioned it here. I do currently have the FRM brand of fish food crumbles already in the barn. as far as harvesting, that depends on how many I should take out to get great LMB. I know when I do start taking them out I will have plenty of help. You would think im handing out suckers at my gate here due to how many local kids want to "help" fish the pond. Its fun to see their interest, it reminds me of my younger days when fishing was all I had to think about.

That is what ponds are about - fun shared times.

In a pond like yours I would try for a balanced population. The idea is to have good quality (not trophy) BG and LMB and RES. That would allow a good catch rate of healthy fish. Typically trophy ponds have lower catch rates but bigger fish.

I would watch carefully the BG spawn this summer. I would stock only 25 LMB in the 6 inch size late this fall. Hand feed the BG for added growth.

Keep in mind that the first stocker fish are not the ones that require extensive management. It is their offspring that require management. The initial 25 LMB will grow well without to much effort but their 50,000 +- babies the first year (more each year) will require effort. Of course they will have many times more BG offspring to eat. At 660 BG/RES to 25 LMB [26 to 1] you are at a ratio similar to those in the PB conference suggestion ( 2000 to 75 = 26 to 1) and more than in the study [ 15 to 1] . You should be in good shape to start.

Interesting, thanks Ewest. Questions:
When you say to carefully watch the BG spawn this summer...Should I be looking for anything particular such as how many times they spawn and estimate how many are in each spawn. Or should I be looking for something else? When you say hand feed, do you mean that literally? I already have been feeding them by hand once a week (since its winter time and not alot will be eaten) but I do plan to put a feeder box with a timer on it. Should I wait till later to install the feeder? Or am I misunderstanding? Is there any particular reason why I should not wait till next year to put in the bass and why do 6' inchers?

On the BG spawn watch for - does it happen and how many times , do you see lots of fry/yoy and how many size groups , do they start growing and to what size over the summer and fall.

Any feeding is ok - did not know if you had a feeder. Don't wait on feeding - as soon as warm and they will eat go for it.

This year’s spring/summer LMB hatch should produce 6 inch yoy LMB by late fall. That is the size to use. Not last year’s holdovers and not late hatch 2 inch fish. Last year’s will have a wasted year at 6 inches and 2 inch will have to much potential to incur winter problems. At the rate of BG/RES you have and the long growing season waiting too long to stock predators can lead to BG stunting problems and LMB spawning suppression. With a low stocking rate for LMB (at 25) I would not wait until spring 2011.

Ewest, I'm pretty sure you understand that I currently DONT have LMB in the pond right now. You are saying that i need LMB in the pond and thats fine. When are you suggesting that I add the 25 LMB to the pond, right now? Whats your opinion on what strain of LMB i should go for?

Yes I understand. The 25 LMB should be put in during late fall 2010 at around 6 inches in size.

What part of Fla is the pond?

Understood. Lake City,Fl. which is 45 minutes from Ga.

You are in a location where both Fla and Northern strains will do well as will F-1s (the natural integrate zone). I would use some of each and feed trained if possible.

What would I gain by stocking all three types of bass, anything particular?

Here is the best generalization I can give:

Northern or native LMB, are considered more aggressive and easier to catch. However, they max out at around 10-12 pounds with a big fish being 6 pounds and therefore don't reach immense trophy sizes.

Florida LMB, are more hook shy and less aggressive but reach world record sizes.

F1 LMB are the first generation cross of a northern and Florida LMB. The idea is that they will be able to reach the trophy sizes but also retain the more aggressive nature of the northern LMB.

Some ichthyologists actually consider northern LMB and Florida LMB to be distinct species, while most consider them to simply be subspecies. There is some evidence that After the initial F1 generation, subsequent generations Fx... Are not as good... So two F1 fish spawning producing F2 fish don't produce as good a progeny as the original F1 northern x Florida LMB. I am not sure if I am completely sold on this idea. Perhaps Eric can find the thread from a few months ago where this idea was thrown around. This idea is why you read that many guys have pure Florida grow out ponds. That way they can constantly add pure Florida bass and pure northern bass to keep new F1 fish in the pond instead of the eventual Fx crosses as subsequent generations of fish spawn are born and grow up in a pond.

CJ the idea that Fx LMB are worse than F1s or either subspecies is IMO not true at least as to LMB in the integrade zone. I have seen no evidence (studies or reports)so stating . In all likely hood , given its location and size , the world record (Perry LMB) was an Fx. I will try to find that thread and link it here as it has my thoughts and study results.


Here it is - look at the study info.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185000&fpart=1

This one has more data.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141224&fpart=1

Yes, I agree that Fx bass are just as good as F1 bass, but some don't that is what I was implying in my previous post. Since you are simply crossing the different subspecies, it only makes sense there would be no difference. There isn't that much genetic difference between the two subspecies. It's not like HBG or saugeye. You really don't get hybrid vigor like you would with crossing two different species. With F1 bass, you simply are hoping to get the best genetics from both subspecies... The aggressive northern genes and the trophy growth potential of the FL genes. Fl and northern bass naturally hybridize in the northern FL/southern GA area. As you said, the world record LMB caught by Perry was in fact caught in that area. It's just like any other intergrade zone for any other subspecies of fish. Where CNBG intergrade with the other two subspecies of BG.

A hybrid (crossing of two inbred but distinct lines) is not the same genetically as crosses among these same hybrids. Try saving seed from your hybrid corn or vegetables and see what you get. Hybrids display heterosis (hybrid vigor) which is lost in subsiquent populations. There may be no evidence for this in LMB, but it is likely if the perental strains are distinct. This is the typical situation, but perhaps LMB is an exception.

What I don't know about genetics would fill a whole library.

That said, what keeps F1 species from inheriting weaker genes? In other words, what keeps the F1 LMB from being both hook shy and smaller?

One theory is that different alleles at the same locust are more rubust than the identical allele in the homozygous state (which is common in inbred lines). A simple way to think about this is that if a gene needs to be in the homozygous state to express as a weakness, this is less likely in a hybrid between two lines that do not contain the same alleles at this locust. A simplistic example is if a random mutation in one allele causes a phenotypic deficiency only in the homozygous state, then it can be passed from generation to generation within the inbred line, being maintained in the heterozygous state. These types of mutations can occur randomly among the many thousands of genes. When one population is crossed with a second distant population, they are less likely to be carrying the same defects, but rather an accumulation of different defects; so when they are crossed, one good copy is available to express in the hybrid. Genes produce proteins (mostly), so one good version of the protein is produced. This is way over-simplified, but irregardless of the mechanism, the observations from both crops and livestock illustrate the pattern of vigor. Even if two good, but different, proteins are produced from two different alleles, each may be adapted to deal with a different environment, allowing the hybrid to cope with a more diverse habitat. I hope that this helps, and sorry to the genetists out there for leaving out the greater complexity. This explaination suggests that genes and proteins do not interact, which they commonly do.

Good lord my head is starting to hurt after all that reading...remind me to not ask those types of questions. Thanks Ewest for the info and links.

By the way my daughter and I spent what seemed like half the night last night floating in the boat with flashlights watching the fish. We both had a ball, best time i've had in forever...

That sounds much better than discussing genetic theory.

CJ I understood that you were reporting what others think/suspect and they may yet be right. I have not seen the info to support that however.

I realize that you're kidding but never stop asking questions. You have to remember that we have the best of the best pond managers and owners on this site. Many of them have spend decades perfecting management strategies. I guess in short, they know their stuff.

If you don't understand something then do what I do and re-ask the question in plain english. Then you will usually get an answer that is understandable.




I love hearing stuff like this. We sometimes forget that when we create a pond environment we are not only creating an ecosystem for plants and animals to thrive but we are creating an environment for memories to be made.


Damn that was deep.

Sorry - That's why I referred to saving seeds from hybrid crops. Some folks are aware that this does not work very well and does not produce plants like the hybrid. By the way, my kids got a kick out of the response to my attempt to explain this in more detail (Nerd is the term they used). Glad to provide entertainment whenever I can. By the way my daughter just got her SAT scores and is following in my footsteps.

RAH I was not referring to your post but to the material from studies in the links as genetic theory. You did a good job with your comment IMO.

My understanding based on the genetic studies is that Fla and Northern LMB genetics are close enough that you don't get hybrid vigor followed by outbreeding depression. Not different species (although some say they are) but subspecies.Either way separate species or not the genetics are very close and not like crossing true different species. In the F-1s you don't see hybrid vigor (better than either parental). Instead you see (using Fla females and Northern males) fish larger than Northern's but smaller than Fla's and more aggressive than Fla's but less than Northern's. I also think but am not sure you see life spans in-between the 2 sub-species also - longer than Northern's but shorter than Fla's. The F-1's are intermediate to both parental in most traits. You see ,across much of the deep south outside of peninsular Fla. , natural integrades of all Fx % between the 2 subspecies. In that area there are not to my knowledge reports of outbreeding depression in LMB nor hybrid vigor.

There is a lot left to learn and either side could be right or wrong. Time will tell. In order to avoid the problem I stock some of all and may the best fish win.

Thanks for the post. Hybrid crops and livestock are not typically between different species, but rather between different lines within one species. As I noted, I have no knowledge as to how this works within LMB. For me, I actually prefer genetic diversity over genetic superiority. Superiority is only relative to the current conditions. A study in the Galapagos found that a lizard population became larger over time. Scientists could not understand why the lizards had taken so long to start increasing in size. Then a drought struck and only the small lizards survived.

I think with seeds used in agriculture such as corn, hybrid has a slightly different definition. The Galapagos are certainly a very interesting place to studying genetics, as are most highly isolated island biotas.

CJBS - how are the crops and fish different?

RAH, if that was an over simplification, I'm not asking any really tough questions.

From Wikipedia

Plants differ from animals in a few ways that make the study of plant genetics interesting. Like mitochondria, chloroplasts have their own DNA, complicating pedigrees somewhat. Like animals, plants have somatic mutations regularly, but these mutations can contribute to the germ line with ease, since flowers develop at the ends of branches composed of somatic cells. People have known of this for centuries, and mutant branches are called "sports". If the fruit on the sport is economically desirable, a new cultivar may be obtained.

Some plant species are capable of self-fertilization, and some are nearly exclusively self-fertilizers. This means that a plant can be both mother and father to its offspring, a rare occurrence in the animals. Scientists and hobbyists attempting to make crosses between different plants must take special measures to prevent the plants from self-fertilizing.

Plants are generally more capable of surviving, and indeed flourishing, as polyploids. Polyploidy, the presence of extra sets of chromosomes, is not usually compatible with life in animals. In plants, polyploid individuals are created frequently by a variety of processes, and once created usually cannot cross back to the parental type. Polyploid individuals, if capable of self-fertilizing, can give rise to a new genetically distinct lineage, which can be the start of a new species. This is often called "instant speciation". Polyploids generally have larger fruit, an economically desirable trait, and many human food crops, including wheat, maize, potatoes, peanuts, strawberries and tobacco, are either accidentally or deliberately created polyploids.

Hybrids between plant species are easy to create by hand-pollination, and may be more successful on average than hybrids between animal species. Often tens of thousands of offspring from a single cross are raised and tested to obtain a single individual with desired characteristics. People create hybrids for economic and aesthetic reasons, especially with orchids.

Thanks Eric...

Thanks to everyone for their help in answering my questions, there is certainly a wealth of information to be had on this board. Now i need to find a supplier for all three (or maybe just two) types of bass for this fall. Anyone planning to head this way during the fall that could provide any northern bass, only need 10. I know its not much but if someone else was already planning to get some, might my fish tag along? I already have my name on the list at Shongaloo Fisheries for 10 florida bass 6inch size in the fall. So I need F1 and Northern and that should be it. Anyone heading this way in the fall?

Check with Greg Grimes. He is in Ga and supplied me with Northerns and F-1s that size. If you wanted you could probably catch a couple Flas to add over time.

ewest - all of the differences between plant and animal genetics that you mention are correct, but not relavant to my example. An example in livestock would be crossbreed cattle. My crop example involves crosses between different lines of diploid plants. Maternal inheritance via chloroplasts or mitochondria, sports, self-fertilization, cross-species crosses, polyploidy, and many other genetic phenomina occur, but are not really relavent to my example.

If you thought that Lemarck was totally wrong and only Darwin was right. Surf the web on the topic of epigenetics (inheritance of aquired traits). Genetics is really cool, and there is an exception for every rule.

I'll check with GG but i'm not at all interested in adding fish from anywhere around here. Not that they are toxic waste dumps just dont want to catch anything i cant get rid if( ugh, sound as if i'm dating again ).

Rcn, sorry been out of town. I was the presenter at PB. I thought I was clear this is a stocking program for quality bass. I do feel strongly it works well. ¾ acre not sure I would say go this route though. You are limited on total pounds of bass you can produce. If you are willing to only catch a few bass enjoy lots of bluegill fishing then stocking numbers are solid.

I differ on opinion on waiting for fall stocking of bass. With what you have I suggest total 1500 bg, 300 res, fhm are good, bag of golden shiner fry from Anderson. If this is done with a good 2” bluegill asap put your bass in as 2 inch fingerlings in June- about 35 of em. Up north this would not work, here especially as far south as you are it works great. The bluegill will grow like gang busters in a new pond and spawn in April. This will supply ample forage for the new little 2 inch bass. I the fall your bass will be much bigger than a hatchery bass grown in crowded conditions. Just this last year we did this same scenario the bass were over 11 inches in Nov.

The other reason not to wait is availability of all three subspecies at 6 inches is very limited and more costly. I do not know many hatcheries that can work with that small a quantity. I know we have a $100 minimum order. I will be in Greenville, FL in June with the fingerlings if interested. Sounds like your are willing to do it right. Let us know if we can be of assistance.

Side bar…I’m not sure of the genetic answer of the bass. I know we have used F1’s ( supposedly F1’s who really knows) and they have grown like crazy and extremely aggressive. Would Fx bass grown just as well or fla grown better or northern been more aggressive not sure?? BUT clients very pleased with the F1. We have attempted in last couple of years to mix bass subspecies as per Ewest description when possible but logistically nightmare with all the hatcheries involved.

Greg, thanks for your input. I want to have a good batch of BG for the kids and for fish fryin, etc... For myself I would really like to have just a few really nice bass. Catch and release until otherwise needed would be the general idea for the bass. As long as I can get these two things id be happy. My objectives as they are, which is the right path to take? Gregs or Ewest? I dont know which? I spoke with the local fishery and they say my 4-500 crawfish should be ready for delivery by next month, so keep that in mind for forage as well. Both of your opinions are certainly greatly appreciated, I just dont know which plan is the best way two get where i want to be. I do want to do this right just that now it seams that I have two "right" ways to do it... Greg, you mention shiners, from what I had been reading it seemed as if everyone agreed that any type of shiner should not be put in a pond as small as mine due to overcrowding. That was the reason why i was trying to find a supplier for lake chubsuckers as a replacement for the shiners (which i have yet to find). Is this one of those times "when it just depends"? I like the chubsucker idea better myself, they clean the bottom of the pond and serve as bait.

I can not tell you what to do. My advice is to watch the pond if you see bluegill spawning and coming to feeders and feel you have lots of fish no reason in my opinion to wait until fall on the bass. And vice versa if sumpin' happened then yes you dont want the bass in too early.

For my custoemrs who follow the plan bass grow well with spring stocking followitng oct-march forage stocking.

The shiners wil not "takeover" if you goal is good size bass- you want lots of em to ehlp bass growth. You are limited on threadfins shad options. The best chance for establishement and cheapest option is this srping with the "fry in a bag" program.

Thanks Greg i'll decide which way to go shortly. Do you have any lake chubsuckers? If not will you be in an area where you can get some b4 you come to fl this summer? I would want grown/spawning size fish.

Greg, if you do find some LCS in the electroshocking adventures, I'd be interested in seeing some photos of them and possibly a few adults as well. Even if I have to drive to GA to pick them up!

I just got the PO today for fishery survey for Fort Gordan- (20 ponds in Augusta). Yippy for me. We planned on ridding of thousands of chubsuckers.

WHo else wants them? i can house a certain number in our flow thru system for a short while. I will take pics. I'm not convinced they are going to help bass growth but hey ??

Greg, sent u a pm.

Greg, let me know when you get close to that time... I'd run this by Bill Cody, he may be interested in some adults and a different blood line as well. Adults may be a little easier to cage culture? Any photos of the LCS you've caught in the past?

http://lakework.com/photo_gallery/gallery2/v/Fish+ID/Sucker/
please feel free to id as many as you can.

This is what I get most of the time. http://lakework.com/photo_gallery/gallery2/v/Fish+ID/Sucker/P1010178.JPG.html

The second link is definitely chubsuckers... Just don't know if they are lake or creek chubsuckers. When they are adults they are very difficult to tell apart. In some of the other pictures are redhouse, white and hognose suckers. Quite a mix! Any idea what the bass populations are like in these lakes? Those suckers look like tasty morsels to me....

CJ thanks In most cases bass are poor when we see high numbers of chubsuckers. Is the poor bass growth from the "suckers" populaiton. Usually high amount of vegetation, very acidic lakes, older, not well managed, etc. when we see them so not sure?

I also see strong cycles when we begin management. i.e. rid of vegetation the bass weights go up quickly so thinking they hammer the exposed suckers.

Typically poor predator growth occurs in ponds/lakes with high amounts of vegetation - too much cover. Too much of a good thing is usually bad even for producing good predator populations. I think one can see very similar results of poor predator populations with most any prey fish including shad,BG, GSH, RES, YP, PS, HBG, CNBG, maybe even FHM, when too much cover is available. Not well managed also usually results in poor quality fisheries. Typically animal populations go through cycles of highs and lows - thats normal. To get the best results from those animal communities one should try to buffer the high and lows to produce a good balance among all the populations. Knowing that balance and how to achieve it is what we are about here at Pomd Boss.

Maybe we can arrange for Rainman to do some delivery of chubsuckers? Does he travel that far? Thoughts?

Would be an interesting idea... A trip from GA, through VA on to OH may work as it is a generally a straight line. Chubsuckers do seem to do best is softer acidic waters with large amounts of vegetation. I am betting Richmond Mill has a decent population of chubsuckers...

RM does have some good sucker population. Remember when I shocked it. I might be doing some analysis up toward VA later this spring. Headed out of town see yall monday.

If it's legal and I can drive there, I'll deliver anywhere!

I'll be heading to Alabama and near Greg's neck of the woods on the 6th if you guys work something out. I'll be in the South 8-10 times at least this coming year.

Ok, leaving monday for SC on way back wednesday shocking lakes at Fort Gordan until fri/sat. I reckon we will get into some lcb. Anyone want any? Let me know it is a pain in the neck to keep and hold unless they are sold. So who and how many? Thanks

Greg, You called me already about my order and everything is still a go here. Thanks, don.

Yes got you down for 20 of em along with 20-30 fingerling bass. CJ? I cna not promise anythign other than to try and shock and keep alive in our holding vats. We are going to NC/VA April 14/15 also if that interest anyone in meeting to pickup the fish or other pond supplies. thanks

Where in VA? I'll check my calendar to see if I am working. If I am off I can definitely meet you somewhere down there. I'd PM Bill if he doesn't see this, I am betting he may have an interest in some adults. I think they may be easier to cage culture than the YOY he tried last year.

I will pass on the adult LCS - too far away for me.

Hmm..Matt and josh might be doign this run. Im not even sure. Shocking Greeson podn in Burlington, NC then up to middle VA. email Cj if you want and we will hold a few more. thanks Bill for reply.

Greg, just sent you an e-mail. I may also buy some Sonar from you to control some duckweed issues I am having. Thanks!