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Joined: Jul 2006
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Why can't you grow bluegrass in a pine forest? (rhetorical question) . Finally I have an (rhetorical) answer... MUTANT SQUIRRELS!!! I just knew that sooner or later mutant squirrels would be the answer to some question posted here. It was only a matter of time.
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Ambassador Lunker
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Ambassador Lunker
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somehow in all this i'm reminded of george bush sr's "thousand points of light".
GSF are people too!
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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By the way I also had an answer if the question was about a squirrel playing bluegrass. Sooner or later that question will come up. Trust me.
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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the sum of the parts has tickled this question to death. Indeed! I actually learned something from it, too!
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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By the way I also had an answer if the question was about a squirrel playing bluegrass. Sooner or later that question will come up. Trust me. Now THESE posts are more within my range of understanding! Thank you, JHAP, for helping me stop the buzzing in my head!
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Ambassador Lunker
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merle "the squirrel" haggerd
GSF are people too!
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Lunker
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haha. were you having one of those headaches, but with pictures?
Last edited by s_montgomery; 02/15/10 12:34 PM. Reason: idea, was the word i was looking for...
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Somewhat of a summary.
Low water + low inorganic sediment inflow (drought) = increased sunlight penetration to bottom substrate.
Increased sunlight penetration to substrate means ideal conditions for submergent vegetation.
Significant growth of agressive submergent vegetation means decreased available nutrients available for single celled algae.
Decreased amount of single celled algae means increased clarity.
Increased clarity means perpetuation of the rooted vegetation (the vicious cycle completed)
An entire pond of sago pondweed = mad landowners.
OK, so when the drought ended the next spring, why didn't the sago re-emerge?
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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haha. were you having one of those headaches, but with pictures? That's the one!
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Joined: Jul 2009
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Somewhat of a summary.
Low water + low inorganic sediment inflow (drought) = increased sunlight penetration to bottom substrate.
Increased sunlight penetration to substrate means ideal conditions for submergent vegetation.
Significant growth of agressive submergent vegetation means decreased available nutrients available for single celled algae.
Decreased amount of single celled algae means increased clarity.
Increased clarity means perpetuation of the rooted vegetation (the vicious cycle completed)
An entire pond of sago pondweed = mad landowners.
OK, so when the drought ended the next spring, why didn't the sago re-emerge? I have to be missing something because I thought we had hit on that, but my thoughts are: * Sago was "killed" off during cold winter * Water levels increased prior to start of real sago growth * Depth change impacted light penetration * Surface runoff - including water, sediment, and lawn care products - "muddied" the water with a sort of nutrient soup * These things all occurred at a time prior to the growth cycle for sago began * algae was able to bloom in advance of the sago * bloom eliminated clear water issue * alage wasn't robbed of all its nutrients by sago and was able to maintain the bloom, blocking light for sago growth
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Ambassador Lunker
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and the squirrels quit playing "sago blossom special"
GSF are people too!
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Ambassador Lunker
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if todd didnt nail it, i smell landowner intervention.......(i.e. pond dye or something in addition to natural causes due to more water...depth, lack of light penetration, phytoplankton bloom)
GSF are people too!
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I have to be missing something because I thought we had hit on that, but my thoughts are:
* Sago was "killed" off during cold winter * Water levels increased prior to start of real sago growth * Depth change impacted light penetration * Surface runoff - including water, sediment, and lawn care products - "muddied" the water with a sort of nutrient soup * These things all occurred at a time prior to the growth cycle for sago began * algae was able to bloom in advance of the sago * bloom eliminated clear water issue * alage wasn't robbed of all its nutrients by sago and was able to maintain the bloom, blocking light for sago growth Bingo! When water is "muddied" during the spring, what part of the water column clarifies first? Top or bottom?
Last edited by Bruce Condello; 02/15/10 01:55 PM.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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if todd didnt nail it, i smell landowner intervention.......(i.e. pond dye or something in addition to natural causes due to more water...depth, lack of light penetration, phytoplankton bloom) Interesting that you should say that, because there is a famous lake in Lincoln called Capital Beach that had a fantabulous sago takeover that occured last year due to water that was too clear. When they consulted me for possible solutions I suggested that they try to use a dye early in the year. You might wonder why they had their sago bloom in 2009, and the answer we've come up with is that the water has a super high salinity, and that most typical algae in this area that are saline tolerant are also "late bloomers" so to speak, and couldn't get a foothold before the sago took off.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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By the way... This thread already has over 1,500 different hits. P.S. I hope I haven't made anybody mad by not directly addressing a couple of the great comments. It's hard to keep up with all the good stuff! I thought I knew all the answers the these questions before I started, but there have been plenty of "food-fer-thought" things that have come up since we started!
Last edited by Bruce Condello; 02/15/10 01:42 PM.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Why can't you grow bluegrass in a pine forest? (rhetorical question) Great and simple illustration of this whole line of logic, Bruce. Thanks - makes a lot of this much more clear (kinda like your water!). And remember, from a figurative standpoint, either the sago or the single celled algae can be the pine trees. But it doesn't have to be domination of the sunlight specifically. When the algae dominates the light availability, it wins. When the sago dominates the nutrient availability, it wins.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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This thread is growing faster than Bruce's sago crop and is hard to catch up with. Lots of good outside the box answers that make me stop and think. Keep going Bruce !!!!
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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if todd didnt nail it, i smell landowner intervention.......(i.e. pond dye or something in addition to natural causes due to more water...depth, lack of light penetration, phytoplankton bloom) Funny, but I was thinking the same thing very early in this question! I didn't say so because I interpreted the question to mean that the neighbors all considered various treatments, but never actually acted on it. One of my very thoughts was Aquasahde. DIED, you and I are on a wavelength on this one!
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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I have to be missing something because I thought we had hit on that, but my thoughts are:
* Sago was "killed" off during cold winter * Water levels increased prior to start of real sago growth * Depth change impacted light penetration * Surface runoff - including water, sediment, and lawn care products - "muddied" the water with a sort of nutrient soup * These things all occurred at a time prior to the growth cycle for sago began * algae was able to bloom in advance of the sago * bloom eliminated clear water issue * alage wasn't robbed of all its nutrients by sago and was able to maintain the bloom, blocking light for sago growth Bingo! When water is "muddied" during the spring, what part of the water column clarifies first? Top or bottom? I say the bottom as the heavier particulate will settle while the lighter/smaller stuff remains suspended for longer. closer to the surface is more subject to wave action from wind, currents, etc. and the particulate will remain suspended longer due to being agitated longer while the bottom is less affected by those things. Also, based on lots of scuba diving in mudholes over the years, it always seemed that at some point, often related to a thermocline in deep enough water, I would break through the really nasty stuff into better visibility.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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Why can't you grow bluegrass in a pine forest? (rhetorical question) Great and simple illustration of this whole line of logic, Bruce. Thanks - makes a lot of this much more clear (kinda like your water!). And remember, from a figurative standpoint, either the sago or the single celled algae can be the pine trees. But it doesn't have to be domination of the sunlight specifically. When the algae dominates the light availability, it wins. When the sago dominates the nutrient availability, it wins. Great point - hadn't really thought of it from the nutrient standpoint, but makes complete sense.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I have to be missing something because I thought we had hit on that, but my thoughts are:
* Sago was "killed" off during cold winter * Water levels increased prior to start of real sago growth * Depth change impacted light penetration * Surface runoff - including water, sediment, and lawn care products - "muddied" the water with a sort of nutrient soup * These things all occurred at a time prior to the growth cycle for sago began * algae was able to bloom in advance of the sago * bloom eliminated clear water issue * alage wasn't robbed of all its nutrients by sago and was able to maintain the bloom, blocking light for sago growth Bingo! When water is "muddied" during the spring, what part of the water column clarifies first? Top or bottom? I say the bottom as the heavier particulate will settle while the lighter/smaller stuff remains suspended for longer. closer to the surface is more subject to wave action from wind, currents, etc. and the particulate will remain suspended longer due to being agitated longer while the bottom is less affected by those things. Also, based on lots of scuba diving in mudholes over the years, it always seemed that at some point, often related to a thermocline in deep enough water, I would break through the really nasty stuff into better visibility. See, here's another example of some good thinking. I hadn't even considered bringing thermocline into the equation. OK, let's rephrase. If you had a sealed glass jar of water, then added clay, and shook it up, would the top or the bottom water clarify more quickly?
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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This thread is growing faster than Bruce's sago crop and is hard to catch up with. Lots of good outside the box answers that make me stop and think. Keep going Bruce !!!! I think I've doubled my previous post count just on answering this thread alone! (And this one makes number 400!)
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By their very nature, all living things have ways of dominating their particular eco-systems. If they didn't, they wouldn't be here today. Evolution takes care of that.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame Lunker
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See, here's another example of some good thinking. I hadn't even considered bringing thermocline into the equation. OK, let's rephrase. If you had a sealed glass jar of water, then added clay, and shook it up, would the top or the bottom water clarify more quickly? I see your point - the top would definitely clarify more quickly. I was thinking in terms of reaching maximum possible clarity, not just which part would first become clearer than it had been. I may still be wrong on the prior answer, but I think I'm in tune with your question now.
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Ambassador Lunker
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these are no simple questions really...in this case your pond is not a stagnant BOW, nor do you have simple flow through like i do (creek entering one end and departing the other).....you have upwelling groundwater (convection currents) which undoubtedly affect both formation of a thermocline and clarification.
GSF are people too!
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