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#202063 - 02/01/10 07:04 PM Shad vs. Shiners
cmfulmer Offline
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Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Conway, AR
History of pond: Central Arkansas, 2.5 acres, max depth 28 ft. Stocked with RES, BG and FHM in Oct 2008. Stocked with 75 F1s, 75 Northern LMB, and 50 CC in May 2009.
My goal is growing big bass. I plan on stocking Tilapia this spring and was debating on threadfin shad or golden shiners. I've read the posts about shad being the foundation for any trophy bass lake. Is it too early to stock threadfins? Is there a difference with respect to bass growth between shad and golden shiners? I worry because I probably would have lost the shad this winter due to cold/freezing water. If time for shad, when is the right time to add them and where can you get them in Arkansas?

Thanks in advance!

Chad
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#202069 - 02/01/10 07:24 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: cmfulmer]
esshup Offline
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I've never stocked the threadfins, too cold up here for them to survive the winter. IIRC, they don't like 44*-57* water, and die at or below water temps of 41*. Golden Shiners do just fine under the ice.

I don't know which one would be better for you, sorry.
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#202108 - 02/01/10 11:23 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: esshup]
CJBS2003 Offline
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You can probably stock shad in your pond but you will have winter kills every 3rd year on average if I had to guess. What size were the bass when you stocked them last year and what size are they now? Have they exhausted their FHM supply yet? With the addition of tilapia this year, you may want to wait another year before stocking threadfins. Golden shiners can go in this year if you like. Having multiple forage options for bass cannot hurt IMO and is probably a good thing. Get the GSH established before the bass get too large.
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#202154 - 02/02/10 09:03 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: CJBS2003]
cmfulmer Offline
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Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 134
Loc: Conway, AR
The bass were 1.5" when stocked. I haven't caught one since October but they were 8-9" then. I guess it wouldn't hurt to postpone shad introduction one more year. That was my original plan anyway. How long do the golden shiners survive? Will they be eaten to extinction like the FHM?
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#202293 - 02/03/10 01:23 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: cmfulmer]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Shiners are variable... Sometimes they survive for long periods, other times they are eaten to extinction within a couple years after the FHM. If you have some shallow weedy areas, there is a higher chance they will survive...
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#202364 - 02/03/10 01:24 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: CJBS2003]
Chad Fikes Offline
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Registered: 09/18/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Whitesboro, TX
If your goal is to have big bass then go with Threadfins and Tilapia. They live in different niches and provide excellent forage for bass. yes they will die but so will tilapia.
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#202396 - 02/03/10 06:26 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Chad Fikes]
cmfulmer Offline
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Registered: 06/28/07
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Loc: Conway, AR
Thanks for the advice guys. Now if I can figure out where to get the threadfins. Any suggestions?
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#202428 - 02/03/10 09:32 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: cmfulmer]
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They (tShad) may be a little more cold tolerant than some thought but Conway is pushing the limit. Need to look at the cost vs. possible loss due to cold.
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#202478 - 02/04/10 10:07 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: ewest]
Greg Grimes Offline
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cm, I can tackle one aspect on the question it is not too early. We began about 5 years stocking prior to bass and have had NO issues stocking them then and have saved clients tons of money but stocking less. So if you decide to go for them you are fine as far as timing. Got a feeling they would have not made it this year but then again I will be finding out soon if Atlanta shad were complete die offs or not.
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#202485 - 02/04/10 10:47 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Greg Grimes]
chadwickz71 Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: texas
im still on the fence abou T-shad. and im down here a little south of Dallas. People lost them even a little south of my area this year. I have a 7 acre lake that im contemplating. Mostly deep water etc.

For the cost of stocking T-shad one year I can add Tilapia at 10lbs to acre for 2.5 years. Yes the shad can last much longer, yet, for one they may not take, and two we can't control the weather.

Im thinking stock Golden shiner and stock Tilapia every year and fertilize to get the most benefit from them. If i see the Golden shiner make it i may try the shad later on.

CM, in your case though atleast your pond is 2.5acres, not being a really large pond will help your wallet out a lot. If you try it and fail your not out a whole bunch of $$$.
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#202488 - 02/04/10 11:09 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: chadwickz71]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Chad you might be surprised from reading Todd Overton comments and talking with Bob (he will shock ponds soon) who knows there may not have been a total loss in the area. Also no diff on the way we stock shad in cost, 2.5 acres or 15 acres they all get one load (~5000 >1.5" shad)
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#202490 - 02/04/10 11:25 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: chadwickz71]
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A couple of thoughts.

GShiners and tilapia could work well.

GShiners can take cold water so they are not an indicator of if TShad can survive.

You can add TShad at low numbers and low $ amount (see Greg's comment)successfully if you do it before LMB and have time to let them establish. It can be done post adult LMB as well but it takes timing and higher numbers. You need a plankton bloom for long term success with TShad.

One point to think about WRT $ and balance and risk. If you have TShad for several years and adult LMB and the TShad die-off you need to do something or the LMB population will over eat the remainig forage and you will end up with a LMB crowded and skinny population. The same as if you stock tilapia a couple years and then stop. The LMB population grows to the forage base and if a big part of the forage goes away you get to many skinny LMB with not enough to eat. So its not just a current $ consideration it is also a population balance question.
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#202558 - 02/04/10 06:00 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: ewest]
chadwickz71 Offline
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Registered: 10/08/08
Posts: 399
Loc: texas
Yeah, I thought Todd lost his T-shad in his ponds etc. He did follow that right up though and say he will have some avaliable though for sale.

Greg, we weren't probably on the same page here, i was more thinking along the lines of an already established pond when I was talking about differences in stocking numbers. CM seems to have a fresh start so yeah I understand your concept. My pond is already established with bass of all sizes. I was thinking you would put more in in that situation.

Ewest, good point, I guess what I was trying to put across is everytime you add something to the pond your subject to more work and more money to sustain it and get the most benefit from it. Fertilizer, feeders, feed, tilapia cost per year, T-shad stocking and restocking, shiner stocking and restocking if needed and a Big chunk of your time to take care of the pond and its populations of fish etc. It all adds up... A person just needs to find a budget and fit the best strategy withen it and be Consistent.
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#202576 - 02/04/10 06:55 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: chadwickz71]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13088
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Lusk still says that he has never seen a double digit bass come out of ponds that don't have TShad.
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#202601 - 02/04/10 08:13 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Dave Davidson1]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
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Loc: northern VA
There have been a number of double digit bass caught out of the 78 acre lake down the street from my house. It has no shad at all, no Tshad or Gshad. The biggest bass caught has been over 13 pounds and I have personally seen two bass caught that were 10 lbs, 7 oz. and 11 lbs, 4 oz. There are a number of states were Tshad cannot survive but still have double digit state records. But maybe there is a difference between a smaller private pond and a bigger public lake?
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#202622 - 02/04/10 08:53 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: CJBS2003]
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I to have a pond that has produced 10 12+ and 13 lb LMB with no shad.

That is not Bob's point though. His point is every trophy LMB pond he has seen be successful has shad. There is a big difference between a trophy LMB pond and one that occasionally produces a 10+ lb LMB. A trophy LMB pond is one with a high # and % of its LMB of large size. That is big bass not many bass. It is managed differently with lots of large high nutrient forage and few bass. Also it does not tie up lots of carrying capacity in small LMB or small forage. The idea is as the LMB grow you shift the average forage size up with them.
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#202624 - 02/04/10 08:55 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: ewest]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Loc: northern VA
Yes, a 15 pound bass needs 2 pound meals... BG aren't going to provide that, Gshad will... So would stocker rainbow trout, CA's huge bass prove that!
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Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.

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#202661 - 02/04/10 09:47 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Dave Davidson1]
txelen Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 271
Loc: Orange County, CA
 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Lusk still says that he has never seen a double digit bass come out of ponds that don't have TShad.


My brother once pulled a fat 24" LMB from an unmanaged .9 acre tank near San Antonio.


Edited by txelen (02/04/10 09:48 PM)
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#202726 - 02/05/10 07:13 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: CJBS2003]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13088
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Travis, I talked to Bob last week about this. He said TShad, not GShad.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#202736 - 02/05/10 08:37 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
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Chad, Todd added to his Tshad thread and said he was surprised he had them still there-thus my comment.

No Im talking about established ponds as well one load is many times harder to establish in 2 acres than in 10 acres not as much open water to get away. In this case shad a better investment as the pond gets bigger. On new ponds we can sell half load and they do just fine and save client some coin.

Dave I think when Bob makes his claim abotu the 10 bass is actually never seen not having gizzard shad not just shad. I have seen numerous with gizzard shad but boy do the gizzard really jump the chances up ten fold in right situation.


Edited by Greg Grimes (02/05/10 08:38 AM)
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#202768 - 02/05/10 10:58 AM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Greg Grimes]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13088
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Greg, I asked that specific question. Unless I really, really, misunderstood, he said TShad. Surprised me too.
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#202801 - 02/05/10 12:42 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Registered: 05/03/02
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Loc: Ball Ground, GA
ok we are going to have to bet a beer over this one I say he says "not once has he shocked a bass over 10 lbs in a lake that does not have gizzard shad." I will findout and report if wrong or right.
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#202802 - 02/05/10 12:49 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Greg Grimes]
Greg Grimes Offline
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ok Dave did not give you time to see if you agreed to terms of bet. Lusk just txt me it was "GIZZ". he said more to it than that but we all know that is always the case.
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#202809 - 02/05/10 02:00 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: Greg Grimes]
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I have personally heard him say both at different times. GShad have very limited application (trophy LMB only) and significant risk in ponds IMO.
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#202818 - 02/05/10 03:15 PM Re: Shad vs. Shiners [Re: ewest]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Eric I continue to lean stronger than you on reward side in right circumstance. I was in that thought process for years leaning more on risk side but our shocking has showed us differently. i agree for the most part limited place. However there are those that the gizzard would fit their goals in the risk/reward department and do not do it from unfounded fears. I would say application is in trophy bass but also quality bass after being well established for several years and they are wanting to push limits. Not well worded but hope I made my point.
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