Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Renewable fhm resource

I am thinking of building an aquarium out in my shop and use it to "grow' "FHM" so I can add extra to the pond when I feel like it. I would be happy with the ability to reproduce say 2500 to 5000 per year or so(just an estimate). Can anyone direct me to a website that will tell me how to do this? I dont want a huge setup just something about the size of a water trough for horse/cattle which is about 2 ft deep by 6 ft long.

Just to add another wrinkle to my previous question. living in north fla with a 3/4 ac pond. Should I be trying to raise another type of bait fish? My overall reason to do this at all is to have big LMB as well as BG. Mind you im not looking for a 25lb bass, just wanting to do what I can to fatten up all of my fish. What about frogs? Just looking for the best bang for the buck that will put the pounds on my fish.

Best bang for your buck would be pellet feeding wouldn't it? Oh, where was it, someone compared the amount of minnows vs. pellets. I'll see if I can find it, but basically it wasn't a comparison. Pellets far outweighed natural forage. But, don't take my word for it, I'll see if I can hunt it down.

Oh, forgot to add, I had a thread I started about feed trained LMB. The LMB will likely not eat the pellets, but your BG should, which will just make bigger meals for your LMB.




...still hunting for that thread...



EDIT - I can't find it.

Hey 11 -

Cool idea supplying one's own forage by way of a small pond or tank. You can search the forum for posts regarding this - I think raising supplemental forage sounds economical and a fun side hobby too. For FHM it's very simple - provide water, some protection from predators like coons and birds, and something under which to spawn near the surface [floating pallets work well for me] and they will do their thing many times over temps allowing.

You are in FL and are trying to feed LMB - IMO FHM aren't going to amount to much. I'd try focusing on forage that provides a bigger meal and ideally something that can establish itself or at least reproduce in your ponds. Up in NE the Golden Shiner [GSH] fits the bill well - one needs to provide some shallow grassy areas they prefer for spawning. I'm not familiar with native minnow species in FL so others may be able to guide you towards more suitable or desirable species. I know Todd Overton and Travis seem to praise the Lake Chubsucker as good forage for LMB.
BG are probably your best bet in terms of sustainable forage in your ponds. Create suitable habitat for spawning and some protection from predation and you should be fine...but I'm not a LMB guy - I'm sure others will come along soon to provide more specific direction.

Great idea on the forage pond - keep us apprised of your project.

3/4 of an acre pond is a bit on the small size for TFS or I would recommend them. GSH may be an option as they are native to north FL and have the possibility of doing well in a 3/4 acre pond. However, they will compete with BG for food. As TJ mentioned, lake chubsuckers(LCS) are native to north FL and are found in many BOW's in the state. They are a big part of the diet of many bass in FL. You can look into purchasing some from Todd Overton or attempt to wild collect some. Check this link out: FL Lake Chubsucker

Check out Todd Overton's info on LCS on his site: Overton LCS

Thanks to all for the assistance. cjbs2003, what is "BOW'S"?

Does anyone know where north florida (Lake City) would be closest supplier for these chubsuckers? A google search brings up everything but what I want...

BOW=Body of water

The only place I know of that sells LCS for pond stocking is Overton's. Either them or you collect them youself...

I have never tried to catch these, what would be the best way?

I'm waiting for a couple of thousand to be delivered today. I'm going to try many methods, hope something works. From stock tubs, to drawdown fire ponds to isolated kid fishing areas. I already have gambusia figured out. But I am going to try and get these things renewable also. Even the rosy reds. But not for resale, just for my own ponds.

Try a minnow trap baited with bread in a weedy area of one of your local lakes or canals. If you can find an area with a little current, even better leave the bread out then. Also, running a seine in an area that is open enough to run one but close to vegetation would probably be a good method to try as well.

Catching ANYTHING in a the old minnow trap is a blast...enjoy! I can't even remember what open water looks like...

Many thanks to everyone for your opinions and information. After searching for data and studying I am going to go with the lake chubsucker. I really like what I see.
It does not compete for food with the bream or shellcrackers I have. Since I dont have or plan to have catfish it kinda takes their place (not totally) by helping to keep the place clean. They will not overpopulate like tshad and gshad will. They fit a nitche that I like in that their size can be anywhere from fingerling to 18.5in, however in my 3/4 ac pond its most likely to stay around 10-14in imop. They should be able to be sustainable even with my bass when I finally put them in. From what I read they deposit their eggs in the bass nest and look similar to bass when young and therefore have protection for a short time anyway. Lake Panasofkee, rodman damn, lake Kissessme (yes, I know the spelling is wrong) and a few lakes in the ocala area have noticed in the last 5 yrs that the chubsucker populations have grown by leaps and bounds. Guess what else has grown? The average bass size has growm by as much as 15% from my reading. I found a bait shop that has a contact that says they have a "few" and the guy is supposed to get them for me today. It would be nice to start with 25-50 individuals but I have time for them to grow. I dont intend to put predators in for a year or so. I also want more time for my lake grass and other plants to grow as well as my minnows, bream, and shellcrackers to populate. I think if I wait till their is enough plants and grass to provide good cover for my "bait fish" this will go well with my trees, rocks, and pvc to give an overall good habitat. Add the crawfish as soon as they are out of the mud and walah, good fish structure, bait fish, and eventually there will be some piggy piggy style fat belly bass to catch.

Sounds great, glad you were able to source some LCS. Please check back in and let us know how the stocking goes and how the LCS progress... When you stock them, please take some photos of them and post on here.

Like a lot of other stuff, I know nothing about LCS. Do they fit in the same niche with FHM? Would they compete or over compete with fatheads? I guess I'm asking why not stock both?

Probably the biggest thing is, LCS have a good chance of lasting in a pond. FHM have little to no chance. I still think FHM have a role in the initial stocking of a pond and should be stocked. The stocking of LCS would be good early on before bass. Give them a chance to get some size on them. The initial stocking will be your future breeding population as they should stay just outside the range of your bass's mouth size. This is all assumptions as I just got my hands on LCS last year. Maybe in a few more years I can give more first hand experience and I am sure Bill and others who have recently stocked their ponds with LCS will too...

Dave: imop I feel that a new pond should still have the FMH, they have their place. The whole reason why I was trying to figure out how to "grow" them in the barn was due to the fact the FMH was not going to be able to keep alive one the LMB took hold and I wanted the bass to have something extra. The search for a suitable fish to take its place has lead me to the chubsucker for all the above reasons I have mentioned. Im not concerned about the FMH competing with the chubsucker since they dont eact exactly the same stuff and most of all they will not last long enough in the pond when the bass are present. The chubsucker to me fits better since it will survive over and over for years to come. Thats better than me "growing" the FMH in the shop due them not making it on their own.

OK, I guess that leads me to another question/thought/red light.

Like the air in a balloon, biomass is constrained by dissolved oxygen availability. Your local lakes indicate that the LCS is quite prolific. So are bluegill and FHM but shellcrackers aren't all that prolific. Multiple fish types with high fecundity, even though each have a different niche, all add to the nutrient load. Thus, it becomes a balancing act with a possibility of few winners and a lot of losers.

I don't want to come across as negative or rain on any parades. However, over stocking forage can have the same effect as over fertilizing. Having had some fish kills in forage ponds and seen more, I have become very cautious about how much air the balloon can hold.

Dave. I feel you bring up some valuable concerns. I feel that by adding in so few LCS that it would help keep it in balance longer. I felt at some point I would need to cull the LCS. When? Well, that was something I would do on an as needed basis. If not before then. Hopefully I can see a problem before it happens. Do you feel this is foolish? If so, i am certainly open other options if you have them. I am by no means and expert and would be willing to take your information under advisement just as I have done the other helpful members here on the forum. What would you suggest to replace the LCS?

I think you should use the LCS. Maybe not put in the FHM until a yr or 8 mo before the LMB so FHM do not create so much biomass to cause problems before the LMB are introduced. Remember in FL the spawning season is lengthy for some species which could quickly stretch the "biomass balloon" that Dave referred to.

Bill: There is a problem with your suggestion...I put 2500 FHM in the pond on 1-7-2010. I cant rightly take them back now, however I have not put in the LCS yet. The contact has not called me to say they are ready.

Have you stocked BG in the pond yet? What size will the LCS be that your source is getting for you? Are they adult fish, as in 6" or so or larger in size?

BG and Shellcracker all went in at the same time the FMH did. I am under the impression the LCS will be fingerling size but that has not been verified yet.

BTW, THe BG and S-cracker were all in the 2inch range when put in the pond.

I suspect the BG and RES will help keep the FHM numbers down some. They will prey pretty heavily on the fry and smaller sized FHM. You may not have quite as big a worry. Do you currently have aeration?

Yes on the air, it runs 24/7 using a 4 brick combo style that sits on the bottom.

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't be overly concerned.

See if your LCS source can get larger fish 6+". Any idea what size of bass you are stocking? If the LCS are larger then you could stock fingerling 3"-5" bass this spring. Let the bass and LCS grow up together. Other opinions?

I think that is the best solution. If you can get larger LCS, say 6" plus, you can stock fingerling LMB 2"-3" fish at the same time or shortly after. The LCS should stay bigger than the LMB's mouth for some time and allow the LCS to pull off at least one if not two spawns before the LMB would get to a size where they could feed on your original stocker LCS if ever. The LMB will actively feed on the FHM keeping them under control while not being large enough to feed on your larger LCS. The FHM will also take pressure off your first couple LCS spawns, giving them a better chance of taking hold.

Have you thought about stocking grass shrimp in your pond as well? They would also be a good food source for your BG and immature LMB... Palaemonetes paludosus which is a Florida species of freshwater grass shrimp should be found rather commonly in most vegetated waters in your area which should lead to easy collecting. A few dozen stocked now should lead to a solid population in the future, particularly if you have some vegetation already present in your pond...

CJBS: I'm liking the way you think. Ran into a temp roadblock with the supplier, will hopefully know by tomorrow evening if they can get them. I dont currently have grass growing in the pond but I did just last week plant some at the waters edge. Can the shrimp be put in b4 grass is growing? Right now nothing in the pond is over 2 inch or so.

They can, they just won't have the survival rates they would if they had a vegetation refuge. At 2" most of your BG and RES probably are too small to feed on the larger shrimp right now anyways... The larger shrimp are usually females and are often egg laden. In most parts of FL, they pretty much reproduce year round.

I think thats a great idea. There is no grass but there is several piles of rock/stone as well as chopped wood that I used to make structure piles with. Maybe they can use them until the grass gets going. there is also the 20-40 ft long trees I put in they may help a bit too.

Try placing 1 or 2 bales of hay into the shallow area of the pond. The hay will provide food and some cover for them as well.

Great tip Travis!

Thanks Travis, I dropped 5 square bales in the pond about 8 days ago just for that reason. My supplier seams to have ran to a dead end on finding the LCS. I called overtons and they wanted $275 for shipping and $1 per fish If I remember right. I just wish there was somewhere local I could get them. Nothing against overtons, i just like to keep my money local as much as possible. From the looks of my options I may have to call them back if i keep running into dead ends here.

Greg Grimes sometimes gets large LCS in his fish electroshocking jobs. He might be able to get some for you.
Check with him.

I got my fish from Overton's and although the shipping was brutal, they came lively and healthy so you do get what you pay for... But overnight shipping isn't cheap, no matter what you ship whether it be fish or anything else! So I can at least attest to the quality of Overton's fish if you have to shell out the money.

Like Bill said, Greg Grimes another member and pond management company owner in Georgia says he comes across LCS from time to time. Check with him, he's equally trustworthy...

I'm little Johnny FHM. Everywhere I go I put in a few dozen. Today a couple of Italian marble fountains I maintain and landscape. They can keep my bullfrog polliwogs company. I even got the pink or rosy red kind that would not last two seconds in the wild. I'm up to six different locations. My goal is at least 20 planted with FHM where they have a chance to survive, no predator fish. I'm sick and tired of all the hoops, shipping and everything else to get these things.

4 FHM can turn into hundreds in just a couple months... This I can attest to. Their reproductive rate when little predation is present is impressive!

Thanks guys, I'll send Greg an email. It would be nice to avoid that brutal (perfect word if I ever heard any...) overnight shipping price. That price alone was enough to make me think twice.

I have major issues paying more per fish on shipping costs than the fish itself. Even worse, I have had a box of 800 show up dead. Not from any of the great guys here, but that also happened. I open the box in front of the delivery men to verify live or dead. I have ordered 2,000 and received less than 1500.

And you can have all the warnings in bright neon glow flourescent orange and the guys will toss around fragile packages like a box of rocks and leave perishable items in the sun on a 110 degree day. Renewable is not reorderable. I already have a few sources of renewable gambusia. Better than begging from vector control. I will do my best to establish LOCAL renewable fhm's.

Well update to this. The Italian marble fountains actually worked. Bad news, I used Pinks or Rosy Reds. These fountains were initially or mistakenly stocked with Koi. Being to shallow, and no hiding places, herons and grebes ended that thought. Same birds knocked my original planting from 40 to 6. However those 6 now have dozens of little ones. I have aquatic potted plants, cinder blocks only. And they made it with gambusia. I am certain survival rate would have been better with grays. But I wanted to see where gambusia stayed and where fhm stayed in this fountain. Completely different areas and never together. I am slowly building a supply of renewable fhm. Both pinks and normal.