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The fact that the pond size fluctuates through the year and with little cover is leading to your BG YOY getting hammered. They get concentrated and the bass have a field day. I see that on a larger scale when they lower the water level of local lakes to reduce submerged aquatic vegetation...

A seine survey may give you a rough idea what the population of 2"-3" sunfish is looking like...

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CJ:
What time of the year should the survey be taken? I have an area of the pond that is easily seinable, and I know someone that has a seine.....


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June is usually a good time of year... You can get an idea how well the spawn in the spring was as the YOY fish should be big enough to show up in the seine run. Any time during the warmer months will give you data to work with though.

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First question - How long does it take for a pond to reach carrying capacity? Research agrees with ewests answer for more southern ponds: abt 2 yrs. The cooler the climate the longer it takes - usually 2.5-3 yrs in zones 6, 5, 4, etc. It has to due with length of growing season. To get even more specific/academic the species composition and the time it takes for them to become mature and reproduce can influence when a pond reaches carrying capacity. A FHM pond would probably reach capacity quicker than a pond with just predators that do not become mature until ages of 2-4 yrs based on growing zone an species.


To answer the blue question: "So, given those facts/figures, and using the esteemed Mr. Cody's definitions, what carrying capacity should I shoot for, with the answer expressed in % of standing crop figuring on 0% CC in the standing crop in an aerated, 9 ac/ft, supplementally fed BOW in Zone 5? (HSB, LMB, BG, RES, GSH) To make it easier, shoot for 100% standing crop and I'll reduce the numbers by 20% to make room for the tilapia and RBT."
I tend to agree with Eric and Cecil - around 400 lbs per acre.

Then my question is, How you gonna measure it? And determine where you're at pound wise?

Even though I often do it, estimating based on visual factors - guessing the total weight and total numbers of fish in my pond is not very accurate and is just a WAG without some methodical and standardized sampling. Those methods consist of electroshocking, nettings, trappings, anglings and possibly mark and recaptures, each with recorded data.
The WAGs or casual observations are always notably too high. And when the pond is actually drained, one invariably says "what happened to all my fish?". Our recent good example of this was Cecil's 2009 brook trout pond draining and census.

Thus, I am saying it is IMO it is basically academic and fruitless to spend time trying to estimate the amount of fish in the pond because IMO It is too difficult for the average Joe to do it without professional help. Professionals with standard methodologies can get pretty good ball park estimates of standing stocks and carrying capacities.

IMO the Best plan is to use some good common sense methods of stocking, provide some reasonable supplimental pellet feedings, and if you feed pellets - aerate. Then don't worry a lot about carrying capacity. Then the next IMPORTANT thing to do is harvest to maintain a good BALANCED fishery to achieve your REALISTIC goals based on pond size, available habitat and location. Knowing and better understanding those are important.

GOALS can be to skew the fishery toward certain size groups or aspects of balance of sport fish i.e. stocker, quality, memorable or trophy sizes or some blend of those sizes.

As I get older, I am learning and realizing that as Bob always suggests, HARVEST is a very important part of pond management especially if one incorporates supplimental feedings or fertilizations. Or when the pond is close to carrying capacity. But close to or at carrying capacity is hard to determine correct? At least as I see it. Then what is a person to do?

Realise harvest helps maintain or insures a more healthy balance where the fish are not crowded and all are adequately growing. Think about it and do it. Not crowded fish and adequately growing are very Important features of healthy balanced fish communities. Not crowded is a key item here. Learn how to determine when they are crowded and if your fish are adequately growing. Look and check for those features / characters.

Where most people get into eventual trouble is season after season, they feed - fertilize; feed - fertilize; feed - fertilize; feed - fertilize and do not harvest. Fish become crowded and then problems start to arise. Intensity of problems gradually increase as fish grow. Crowding intensifies due primarily to reproduciton, recruitment, and growth. Feeding and fertilizings stimulate reproduciton, growth, and recruitment until an environmenal stressor/s (disease, low DO or water quality) steps in and puts the pond a few steps or poundages back ward - fish kills.

As fish poundages and crowdings build up or increase, water quality increasingly declines to where fish often die or the community becomes out of balance based on the original goal. PROPER harvest is very important to maintain "healthy carrying capacities i.e. balance and room for added growth. Knowing what and how many to harvest based on the goals are important. Based on how important Bob considers harvest to be, harvest and its guidelines are probably not discussed enough here for all the species involved in the various communities involved.

I think it is much better for the fishery to be several "degrees" under capacity than at or near capacity. At least better in terms of overall fish health and less chance of a fish kill and the majority of remaining fishes being able to maintain good or optimum growth. One asks "what is a degree"? Who knows? I made up the term. Someone else may be able to help with this or similar ideas.

PS: "The esteemed Mr. Cody" is very much a matter of opinion. Believe me, I've been called much worse. Thanks for the complement.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/29/10 11:36 PM.

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Great information Bill... I am curious about the nuances of harvesting. Is there a past article on this in Pond Boss or is this something that may need to be covered in a future article? Hint, hint...

We talk about human harvesting which is very controlled for the most part. The occasional hook mortality or something of that nature, although not technically a harvest, does remove a fish from the pond. You can control what species of fish, what size, what condition, etc of the fish you remove.

Other living creatures also harvest fish from our ponds. Herons, ospreys, otters and other fish... Few people want herons, ospreys or otters taking fish from their ponds, particularly otters who can rally clean a pond out. But what I am curious about is the use of fish to do the work for you. I enjoy eating fish, but may not want to eat enough fish to eat all the fish that need to be removed for one's goals for their pond. Can you rely on other fish to do the work for you?

Obviously bass remove a lot of panfish from a pond, without bass in a pond, BG and other panfish will almost surely stunt and be a mess. There has been a substantial debate over using esox species as a control over bass and other species in the pond. Can these esox species replace humans who don't wish to harvest and eat bass or panfish, or are the results so unreliable for the most part that a pond owner will just have to find friends who want fish to eat to reach their goals? Or do you just toss the harvested fish into the outflow of the dam and send them on their way to the local river?

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Thanks Bill. I regularly fish the pond, I'd say at least a couple times a week during warmer fishing weather, and I will have a meal of fish once a week (one person). Once a month during the warmer months a neighbor has a fish fry, and his son and a friend usually supply the CC for the meal. The last 2 times a few came from my pond. The pond will be fished heavily for CC this year.

My nephew will also come over and fish once in a while, usually once a month May - Sept., and will take home fish for a family dinner (2 adults, 2 teenage kids). I also have a numbered fish tagging kit from Greg, and have been tagging the largest individuals that have been caught. I will start fin clipping BG this year and keep a record.

I don't know if Pondmeisters have run into this problem, but I have had bad luck using regular paper and pens to keep track of fish - the paper/ink usually gets wet. I ran across waterproof paper and a pen that will write on that paper, even if wet, in a shooting supply place. It's used to keep a shooting log. While not as inexpensive as regular paper and pen, it wasn't exhorbantly priced either. The paper is in a spiral notebook form, and they have several different sizes and colors of paper.

Bill, I know Eric will reply, but I'd like your take on it as well. Could you look at post # 201676 and comment on the 2 questions at the end?

Thanks for the information. I wish that I would have remembered more from my fisheries classes, but that was a while ago.....


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What is the dynamic carrying capacity of a 1 acre pond (expressed in pounds per ac. ft.), that is described below; and how can I determine that I am staying near (say between 80 and 90%) carrying capacity?

Key word being dynamic. Going to always be changing. 100% capacity your fish biomass in a very fertile pond would be 500 lbs. You cannot determine you are staying near 80 and 90 percent. At best you can try and stay in your desired range with selective harvesting. I'd go with 400.

Now how much would that carrying capacity change if there was no supplemental feeding? (again expressed in pounds per ac. ft.)

Hmmm. No food changes the entire dynamic of the pond, about 350. Your goals down to 275.

How much would the carrying capacity change if both supplemental feeding and aeration were not present?

Feeding is a large increase of biomass. Aeration is activity, fish slow but I think the change in biomass would be insignificant. Temp would be a bigger factor. I am thinking 30%.

Am I correct in my understanding that carrying capacity means total biomass?

Carrying capacity is a measurement for biomass. As in how much? We have been talking total fish carrying capacity. Could be a species of fish, frogs, even plants. You overload your plant carrying capacity, you may decrease your fish carrying capacity. No, carrying capacity does not mean total biomass.

If that is true, then how do I figure what percentage of the total biomass should be fish?

Total biomass can be measured in the term carrying capacity. So I'd say false. Looks like you ask on the pondboss forum.

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I think Bill's post above is one of the all time top posts. So much there. This thread goes to the archives link .

CJ the measure to look at is total mortality which includes natural morts and fishing morts combined. It is highly variable by location , species , human predation efforts and all the biologic factors. It is another "it depends" but can be very high as a % as it would by nature have to be due to fish spawning numbers. I can find some #s but am not sure the significance of them as a measure.

That takes me to Bill's point that measuring carrying capacity is not so important to worry about much. I agree totally. I only keep it in mind as a possible warning factor in ponds that are run or to be run more like a aquaculture operation thus the thread linked early in this thread - Trophic Continuum - natural to aquaculture

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=000162;p=1 .

Like Bill I don't think it is wise to run the pond at full tilt. That is like running a motor at high rpm for to long - something is going to break.

We are describing one of the deliminas fisheries science has struggled with since it began - what to look at and how to measure the outcome. Let me suggest the methods developed by early fishery science professors like Swingle. He knew the difficulty of measuring full pond aspects of fish populations so he developed indirect methods. Bill notes them by nature. Learning to do a population analysis can be learned thanks to Swingle and others work. You don't measure carrying capacity or standing crop as its to hard. Instead you measure fish condition as an indicator of pond health. In a natural pond condition is in part a measure of food supply and absence of stress. In crowded circumstances food is usually limited and stress higher and it is reflected in fish condition. Bill noted as follows as the common sense way " Learn how to determine when they are crowded and if your fish are adequately growing. Look and check for those features / characters. " . You can get a good estimate of this by looking at the fish , use RW (Wr) measures , do they look good and by measuring the relationship between the #s( are the numbers balance) - creel surveys , seine surveys , trap results and visual inspection.. This is not perfect but is a good measure. See the links from the archives on population analysis -
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492 .

I hope this helps some.

I think the question you ask about what to add or replace is dependent on goals. If you take out big CC you could replace them with HSB as that would be a measure (HSB) that is controlled (no reproduction).

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Great thread and glad that the idea that harvest is a key ingredient in maintaining a healthy(read:active, good fighters, no disease, good in the pan) fish population, was mentioned.
PROPER harvest techniques should be considered. Dont just go out and catch some fish.
As in my case soon, I want to take out about #50 lmb, #30-40 hsb, and unknown amount of BG.
Go after the larger, older, wiser fish 1st. Use larger baits, monitor their Wr, if they are over normal, maybe release some as they have learned how to flourish.
After you have culled them, then switch to a smaller LMB bait and harvest some of the younger, easier to catch juveniles.
HSB should be easier to catch, so, then target them.
Lastly, the BG will always be willing participants.



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Human harvest of ponds is no doubt the least discussed tool here. It is absolutely critical in maintaining balance or goal accomplishment.
















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 Originally Posted By: ewest
Human harvest of ponds is no doubt the least discussed tool here.

Most fun, too.


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I agree the most fun part is harvesting and eating something you grew either in the garden or in the pond. Somehow it brings me more satisfaction knowing it came out of my pond than if I had bought it at the store.

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IMO one of the problems with angling and management that often occurs is angling frequently and for longer periods for fun while frequently utilizing catch and release in smaller ponds (probably <2-3acres). Angling with C/R in general tends to make the actual harvest experience more difficult when needed, unless the harvest method is other than angling. In other words C/R angling creates hook smart fish that are then difficult to catch & remove when needed. This is usually not as big of a problem in larger bodies of water prob >5 acres due to the number of angling man hours per ac of water. Typically as number of angling hrs/yr/ac go down catch rates go up, i.e fish are easier to catch. If one can't catch them, how do you get them out? Dynamite is no longer sold to the public in stores.


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Contact Tom G?

I think you can fish more frequently for fish lower on the food chain like BG because there are more of them meaning the angling pressure per fish is more spread out. But with bass, there are far less bass in the typical pond than BG which means there is more angling pressure per fish put on them.

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 Originally Posted By: esshup
So, given those facts/figures, and using the esteemed Mr. Cody's definitions, what carrying capacity should I shoot for, with the answer expressed in % of standing crop figuring on 0% CC in the standing crop in an aerated, 9 ac/ft, supplementally fed BOW in Zone 5? (HSB, LMB, BG, RES, GSH) To make it easier, shoot for 100% standing crop and I'll reduce the numbers by 20% to make room for the tilapia and RBT.


Scott, Since you feed, there should be no need to reduce your stocking numbers to allow for the "addition" of trout and tilapia. As you said, they are transient. The trout will all be removed by predators, you or fish and this temporary bio-mass is intentional and of no concern. The tilapia however, on paper, are a competitor, mainly of bluegill, but in the pond, that theory falls apart. By consuming a wide range of otherwise unused and wasted nutrients in the pond, then converting it into usable forage in the form of YOY for the predators to consume, tilapia will increase the carrying capacity above what your commercial foods increase the capacity.

Just remember, Consider stocking tilapia like any supplemental feeding program that increases capacity. It is not a natural forage or nutrient source. If capacity has grown, and the supplemental program is stopped suddenly, you will have starving fish to deal with. Fish will die and the carrying capacity will eventually revert to "normal".



EDIT:

Adding tilapia with no additional feeding program does not change a BOW's total bio-mass, it re-arranges it, moving normally un-consumed plants up the food chain and into the fish. By not adding tilapia in future seasons, the bio-mass returns to normal relatively quickly.

Last edited by Rainman; 01/31/10 08:04 AM.


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Guys the concept of carrying capacity or standing crop is measuring fish only not total biomass. If you added the plant life and other animal life the numbers would be many times the fish # and be at any point in time the total energetic input in the pond. Like Rainman above and Bruce in an earlier archive post discuss the total energetic input/output (total biomass) in a pond which stays relatively stable and only changes form. There are some things that change total biomass. More water , more sun and better chemical fertility. See the link below.

By definition anytime you add fish without taking some out you have increased the standing crop.

I highly recommend this thread. Bob said this about it - " This has to rank in the top ten best threads ever on this website. Good stuff, guys."

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9167&fpart=1

Last edited by ewest; 01/31/10 10:27 AM.















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A great big thanks to all. I have my answers, and a direction. All I did was pose a question or two, it was the answers that made this great.

Rex, If I was running close to max. standing crop, then I would be more concerned about adding Tilapia to the pond than the trout. I think there would be more of a potential oxygem problem during the heat of the summer than winter if the aeration system were to go down. I was trying to figure out what 80% of the standing crop potential was, to make sure I had room for the Tilapia in the summer, and the trout in the winter.


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Scott, I'm sure there is an ultimate max somewhere. Used in a fishing pond, I doubt adding Tilapia could come close to that maximum point though. Again, in practice, and in the YOUR pond, tilapia will improve the numbers and weight of your standing crop. Not just by the nutrients consumed, but by many other factors as well. Factors such as water quality improvement, toxin reductions, increased DO, etc. These results have been seen time and time again. Unfortunately, Reports and studies still defer to what the diets consumed by tilapia are and state (factually) that tilapia are a competitor and <I believe wrongly, declare it as an invasive species. These reports sometimes state, but usually ignore that the actual use of tilapia contradicts what most of these studies say SHOULD happen. These reports choose to ignore the fact that the species that SHOULD be harmed by adding tilapia are actually improved in nearly every single situation I am aware of.

The actual use of tilapia as a supplemental food source and a pond management tool is in it's infancy, but the results being attained are nothing short of amazing in the vast, vast majority of the ponds where they have been stocked. I and many others are still trying to fine tune stocking rates, but anything over 5 pounds and up is producing positive results, if not the specific goal desired. In the 3 short years I have dealt with tilapia, I have yet to hear a single report where stocking mixed sex tilapia was detrimental to the pond that we are concerned with here on Pond Boss.

The point I was originally trying to make sure you were clear on and trying to make. Was to think of adding tilapia as you should by feeding a commercial feed supplement. If it has been done long enough and stopped suddenly, fish will starve because any given BOW was never able to be that fertile on it's own.

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Wow, This is CLASSIC! Thanks Guys!


Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer.
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grin That's why it ended up in the archives.


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After re-reading this thread which is very informative, I noticed that ewest on 29/01/10, 7:34pm noted "A common suggestion is to shoot for 4 to 1 poundage of forage to top end predators." I think this value or ratio of forage pounds to predator pounds is too low and depending on ones goals is outdated.

I think in a balanced fishery the ratio should be more towards a minimum of 5:1 to best of 10:1 (forage pounds to predator pounds). I think very few sport fisheries have forage to predator ratios this high which is why pellet feeding works so well. Feeding artificially helps increase the forage ratio to ultimately boost the predator numbers and or sizes which is the goal of most pond meisters. I suggest the higher forage : predator because ecologically the food chain energy transfer pyramid uses the 10:1 ratio. In nature food biomass decreases around 10 times for each energy - food level step up the food chain.

Growing a one pound bass is a good example. It is generally accepted that it takes 10 pounds of forage to grow a 1 pound predator. Thus if our pond has what appears as an excess of forage more representative of the 5:1 ratio we will see more examples of optimum growth of the predators.

As another example. Greg Grimes (Aquatic Environmental Services) when he wants to grow trophy bass, under stocks the number of predators and increases the number or amount of forage fish, thus creating a food chain forage : predator stocking ratio approaching the 10:1 value. When this is done in southern, south central US ponds, Greg has seen LMB bass grow from fingerling to 3 - 5 lbs in one year. It is amazing what surplus forage can produce. When this occurs the big trick or challenge then for the pond owner or fish manager is to maintain this high forage to predator ratio as the fishery ages. This is where many fail at maintaining this optimum balance, probably through greed to maintain too many big impressive predators per acre. IMO the proper maintenance is done primarily by proper fish harvest and habitat management and NOT by supplemental stocking


Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/20/14 06:56 PM.

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Both the 4 to 1 forage poundage ratio and the 10 to 1 stocking ratio for LMB/BG ponds is old info based on Co-op Extension data. The poundage info is based on an ongoing pond not a start up. That is maintain 4 times the poundage in forage as in predators. By definition if you keep those #s static the LMB will be well fed. The problem is keeping any aspect static as the pond is a dynamic biological model. It has been referred to a trying to balance on a knife edge between 2 unstable states being LMB crowded on one hand and BG crowded on the other. Both tend to get out of balance as conditions change.

Newer information on stocking (reported in PB mag - Cutting Edge column) from recent studies shows best results for avoiding LMB crowded status soon after stocking in southern ponds based on a 30 to 1 stocking ratio rather than the old standard 10 to 1.

Feeding and fertilization will greatly effect both of these variables. So will a naturally productive water body. Its all energetics.

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ewest, I think part of the equasion also would be the amount of cover in a pond for the forage fish to hide in. Too little and I don't know if the forage fish can keep up with predation, too much and they will make the LMB work too hard.

Like you said, it's like trying to balance on a knife edge. But, I think it's even more precise than that. Think of the knife edge on a moving vehicle, with stiff crosswinds.

You can keep a pond in relative balance, but it takes constant monitoring and knowing what to look for during those monitoring sessions.

Go on vacation for a week or two and have a flock of cormorants visit, or a family of otters and it'll slip off that knife edge in a heartbeat.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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My comments were meant to encourage discussion and thought.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/17/18 05:29 PM.

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