Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Building a dam here goes .. dam going in

Can't wait to see how it all continues to develop!

Mike that looks good to me. Will all the plastic be covered with rock or foam?

The GeoTextyle will be covered with rock and crushed stone .. the cracks and crevices in the waterfall will be filled with foam so that the water does not find it's way under the stone structure .. I will trim the excess and paint with Dry Loc (Basement Paint) to blend in with the color of the stone

Very nice pond Mike. Sorry I didn't read this sooner about your floating pipe problem. All you had to do was drill holes, not all the way through the pipe just the ribs. This lets the air out of the rib and allows them to fill with water. Usually a hole in the top and bottom and a hole on each side do the job. The way you did it will work fine though. Can't wait to see it when you get everything done.

Great job. Placing rocks can be a tuff job and you did a great job.

So the pond finally crested this past Monday morning ... In the past 2 weeks we have gotten approximately an inch of rain and some snow .. and I am a little nervouse that my discharge wont be able to keep up (granted just a little) I am just guessing here but it may take 10 sec. to fill a 55 gallon drum .. that's 300 + gallons per minute .. and that is probably conservative .. but i will use that number ..

My question is in the spring or after a significant rain event will I have enough discharge area with (3) 8 inch discharge pipes?

I was hoping one of the seasoned vets on this fantastic site might be able to give me some reassurance ... or ... tell me to open the bottom drain.

I did build temporary emergency spillways to handle a more substantial event but was hoping the pipes would suffice..

Any thoughts ?

Mike, I've been following your progress, super fantastic pond project, especially that outflow waterfall.
I don't think you'll have any problems with discharge, my pond has 2 12" discharge pipes, and with a large drainage area into the pond with heavy spring rains onto 3ft of snow they easily handle the runoff.
Keep the photo's coming.

P.S. According to my laymans calculations, one 8" pipe should be able to handle at least 900 GPM.

Thanks .. that does give me some peace of mind .. I've been going over every morning before work and checking on things as this is the first year I have had 5 Million gallons of water on my property ..

The waterfall is handling the flow very well although there are some problems I did not anticipate .. turns out that although the waterfall rocks are for the most part flat there are some irregularities .. these irregularities will divert the water off to the path of least resistance which for the most part is not where I want the water to go .. I had to resort to sandbags to keep the flow pointed in the right direction .. next spring when it thaws out up here I will use a rock chisel and hopefully carve out a consistant path.

Also Adirondack .. nice to see someone else from NY here .. great forum with lots of good info

Mike AP is right . Those 3 8 inch pipes will move a lot of water. At full bore they will probably shoot water a good way down your falls. I hope you can get a pic as it will be a sight to see. Look at this material. From the archive http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92487#Post92487 .

http://www.in.nrcs.usda.gov/pdf%20files/PONDS.PDF

I have my reservations on this one. If I may ask a couple of questions,

1. What are you standing on when you are poppin that bubbly?

2. What prep work was done on base of dam, foundation of embankment and catchment?

3. Did you take any core samples anywhere?

Haven't been on in a while because everything was frozen and snow covered .. low and behold I have some questions ..

I had quite a scare yesterday as temps went into the mid 50s with and it rained about 3 inches .. The snow pac melted almost overnight coupled with the monsoon .. made for alot of water for that little pond to handle .. The three 8 inch pipes were maxed and both overflows were at about 50% capacity .. Could have gone white water rafting down that falls .. Didn't get any sleep worrying about it .. went over just after sunrise and the level had dropped considerably .. I will have some repair work to do when things dry up in the spring because the flow eroded away some embankment on the backside of the dam .. fortunately the rock and geo-textile did what it was designed to do. I will try to get some pics today of the carnage.

As for the questions ..
1> that is a solid rock ledge we are standing on .. the shelves are stepped with 4' rises ..
2> the embankment consists of a clay gravel mixture that was lined with clay to a thickness of about 18 " .. then covered with geotextyle and rock
3>The core was built with the same clay that lined the embankment .. a core trench was dug approximately 3' down just in front of and immovable boulder (which determined the elevation of the bottom discharge) and was consistant with the bottom of the pond.
4> and no .. no formal core samples were done

It took about 1 month to fill .. Have had different estimates as to volume .. average being about 4 million gallons .

Have had no loss of water .. Dam integrity seems to be pretty consistant .. short of the backside erosion previously described ..

May I ask why the reservations ?

My reservations are many. I think the biggest is location. From what I gather you are right off of Lake Ontario. A lake formed by glaciers and limestone scraping. It looks to me you are in a old Karst area. I think Howe Caverns are not a great distance from you either. And a great deal of indicators are there. The vertical movement of water with springs. The abundance of large limestome formations, including the possible broken up pavement stones everywhere. These could be in multiple depths, in your pond, under your pond, under your dam and embankments.

My biggest concern is complex underground drainage. Aquifers and piping. Bear in mind with the water you are adding you are almost doubling the atmospheric pressures at the pond bottom, dam and embankment foundations. Pressures this soil has probably never seen. You will be, and this is not a maybe, redirecting underground water. Just where is the big question.

I think you could create an inverted funnel sinkhole. Or possibly push into a aquifer. Maybe even create piping under your dam or embankments. With this in mind I may have not stacked all that rock and fabric everywhere. It prevents you from inspecting the pond side of the embankments. Especially at the base.

I don't know if you could have done much to change that. I think I would have done numerous core samples. I would have done a Proctor test and a sieve test. If all of these were satisfactory I would then judge how to treat the foundations and the catchment. Might have to escavate and bring in clay, bentonite, who knows. Maybe mulitple levels. I also would have used a sheeps foot for compaction. You just dont get the psi with anything else. Keep it bare, clean banks and bottom and fill it up and test it out. Drain it and inspect it.

Never saw the completed spillway but I don't think overtopping is an issue at all. My main concerns would be the rock formations and the foundations. Well, at least you may make a lot of new springs. I appreciate your efforts. I personally would have made a great pyramid out of those rocks. Hard to really say what is going to happen as that is rare geology you have there. I hope my concerns are unfounded and everything goes as planned.

So here are a couple of Jan. pics



Inflow pipes .. were completely submerged yesterday



view of discharge .. this discharge is just about 1/3 greater than normal ..



you can see the erosion damage on either side of the bottom rock



a close up view of the erosion

I am not overly concerned about this because it is only roughly the last 4 feet of the dam that was damaged .. It was my first significant event as far as runoff .. I do not anticipate much greater but will make provisions regardless ..







just a couple other pics taken .. including the last which shows the overflow that happened to work very well

So where were you Pond Frog when I was buiding this pond .. Smiling .. just kidding ..

By your use of technical jargon I will assume that you have an education in geology .. I unfortunately do not .. so at this point I will hope for the best

I do plan to drain the pond this coming summer to do inspections and some more work .. I am able to inspect the base of the embankments as the geotextyle only exteds down 12 feet from the upper edge leaving the bottom 4 feet exposed .

The dam elevation is well below surrounding residences and is within 200' of an unregulated (DEC) steam for discharge .. I had to look up some of the more technical terms (inverted funnel sinkhole) and although I am certain they exist .. I have lived in this area for 45 years and have never seen one .. (piping) refers to I believe the redirection of fluids .. in this case water .. and I would assume that yes some piping will occur .. but given the elevation and surrounding terrain I am not sure it will cause a problem .. and hey if it does .. I can dig another pond ..

Yea Mike that was a real gully washer we had yesterday, I went to the cabin Sunday to keep an eye on things overnight. We had over 2 inches of rain by monday morning with temps reaching 45 degrees and alot of snow melt.
The pond was 8 inches below full on Sunday and by Monday morning it was full and the outflow pipes were running pretty good.
Glad to see you had minimum damage.

Sorry I was not around for start up. The cores would let you know what your foundation and catchment are laying upon. But they might run right into a rock. Also you could fine tune your compaction practices. It is well advised to drain it back and give it a very close inspection. That limestone and verticle water movement combination concerns me. You know when you drain it you can also do some cores. It is not too late. Maybe pay some unemployed geologist to take a look. It could answer a lot of questions.

Are there a lot of ponds around you?

How many miles are you from Howe Caverns?

What did you do with the pond bottom?

Lets see ..

No .. not alot of ponds around .. but I guess that is a subjective question ..

Howe Caverns are in Cobleskill I believe, thats about 150 miles to the south east

I did nothing to the pond bottom other than dig to grade .. the bottom held water for years as this project has been ongoing .. so I was more concerned about the sides .. And even then I may have been a little over cautious becasue 2 years ago I put a temp dam in and held back about 5 feet of water .. just testing .. all held very well but this summer I decided better safe than sorry .. hence the clay.

I am not sure I understand the concern with limestone and vertical water movement .. Do you have a layman's abreviated narration ? Assuming the concern is well founded, should the surrounding terrain show signs of this phenomenon ?

Above ground springs appearing and disappearing. Normal aquifers are horizontal. That type of movement can indicate special problems.

Historical geology on your little pond is a great big glacier melted, slid down and created Lake Ontario, scraping a limestone basin in the process. Most likely losing size but gaining momentum. Just down the road in Earth's surface is the Howe Caverns, a incredible Karst formation. Your pond resides in between all of this, with a abundace of fractured limestone.

http://www.howecaverns.com/

Piping can occur anywhere there is a water passage. If the passage allows dirt and soil to move within it, pretty soon you have piping. This can lead to immediate structural failure. It may show up as a wet spot on your downpond embankment, a sinkhole inside. Maybe a whirlpool. Another bummer in that type of formation is an inverted cone sinkhole. This could start anywhere on your pond bottom, gain momentum and washout into an underground aquifer or empty cavern.

The relevance of do you have ponds around you is most likely they have similar soils. If they did not have any improvements and are holding up fine that is a great indicator for yours.

I'm sure everything will be fine. It's a fantastic accomplishment.

flip-flop

1. The movement or sound of repeated flapping.
2. Informal A reversal, as of a stand or position: a foreign policy flip-flop.
3. A backless, often foam rubber sandal held to the foot at the big toe by means of a thong.
4. A backward somersault or handspring.
5. Electronics An electronic circuit or mechanical device capable of assuming either of two stable states, especially a computer circuit used to store a single bit of information.

What am I supposed to say, I hope your pond bottom blows out and creates a giant sinkhole to prove me right? Maybe I should not have said anything. No one else did.

Everyone of us that has constructed a pond has taken a risk. We do our best to assess the proposed site and take the best steps that we can afford in an effort to mitigate potential pitfalls. Some spend thousands. Some spend tens of thousands. We take it seriously and put our hearts and souls into the product.
The Pond Boss family is a tried and true support team. We cheer with the successful and cry with the tragic. Your posts to address Mike’s project started off as constructively critical, but aggressively continued on to resemble somewhat of an insensitive attack. I felt bad for Mike and all the hard work he put into a true Pond Boss diamond. I should also add that I am proud of his humble and contained responses.
I want to believe, Pond Frog, that your intentions were genuine and aimed to a constructive end. It just came off as over the top.

Private messages were made for a reason... Sometimes when a new member doesn't realize the close family nature of Pond Boss a friendly PM can do a lot of good rather than throwing them under the bus and possibly losing their valuable knowledge to the forum.

Is this a good time to talk about global warming.

Hey .. did anyone see the ars kickin Brett Farve took this past weekend ?? Whoooaaa !!!

Kinda like the whole Farve scenario .. love him or hate him because of his drama .. no one can argue his abilities .. Like Farve .. we all have our areas of expertise .. his happens to be throwing a football .. mine happens to be Big Machines .. you want specs, application data, parts, service .. like Farve .. I'm pretty good at what I do .. and I'm sure you all are too.

Point being .. we all have something to bring to the table here .. good bad or indifferent .. the package it comes in may not suit every taste .. but that does not mean it is bad information .. the package just isnt for everyone ..

This forum has been a great source of information for me .. fairly new to the world of pond construction (although I feel like Ive been digin that crazy hole for years .. oh yeah .. I have) all info .. as long as it is qualified .. is good info ..

Everyone keep it coming .. thats why we are here .. dont get pissed because someone else doesnt like the delivery .. and dont be offended because the delivery may not suit your taste ..

Both of you .. good info .. good moderation .. now can we move on please .

Again .. did anyone see the Ars Kickin Farve took last week .. OOUCHHH !!!!

I saw multiple roughing-the-passer penalties that were not called to the point that more than one of the Saints defensive players should have been ejected from the game for intentionally trying to hurt the quarterback. I heard a radio sports talk show host who played ten years in the NFL and was a Pro Bowler comment a couple days ago that there was no doubt in his mind that the Saints defensive players were trying to hurt Favre. The tackle below his knees is illegal 100% of the time by way of the new rule enacted after Brady was put out for all of last season by such a hit - and yet the officials didn't call it, as they didn't call multiple late hits...Pretty sorry officiating, to the point of being dishonest, and really execrable, unconscionable, pathetic, dirty play by the Saints.

So yes, I saw a game handed to the Saints by dishonest officials, if that's what you mean (we won't even get into the pass interference call in OT that has already been roundly excoriated by everyone in sports other than Saints fans and people who work for the league).