Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Too Many Skinny Bass (& MANY OTHER TOPICS)

I would think the fatheads could make it in most environments without a predator fish around. Put in some stuff to act as substrate for the fatheads. I would try golden shiners, why not. I would expect better results from the fatheads as far as total numbers you will get in return. The fatheads are easy to catch with a minnow basket for transporting once you're ready to transport some to your pond.

Greg, I've secured permission to stock the shallow pond with fatheads for summer spawning production and so I'm kind'a keyed up about it.

The pond is probably 1/3rd to 1/2 acre in size, and varies to depths of about 1 to 3 feet. I'm sure of this because I went frog gigging on it with a small boat and was pushing myself around with an oar by touching the bottom. Incidently, it was LOADED with frogs. I'm sure it contains no fish as our winters here in Ohio probably freeze it solid (especialy THIS winter), not to mention the low oxygen levels.

I've done some reading on spawning fatheads and understand that providing structure for them to lay eggs under (like floating boards) can be helpful. I may consider this but the pond has a lot of brush and logs around the banks which hang into the water and should prove suitable. However, I'd be open to ideas for spawning structure.

Now the big questions: First, how many pounds of fatheads should I throw in this spring in the hopes of thousands by late summer? Also, exactly how many fatheads are in a pound as I might have to buy them at a bait shop instead of a dealer. Finaly, can you be more specific about golden shiners. Will they feed heavily on the fatheads or can I expect large numbers of fatheads regardless of predation? I'm guessing golden shiners are a bit less hardy and might not thrive in a swampy pond like this, but if they won't hurt my fathead production that much then I'd be willing to stock them with the fatheads. Stocking numbers? Thanks again.

Fatheads will not use the brush effectively for spawning; logs will be more useful. Fatheads ideally need a flattened surface; the larger the more room for egg deposition. Sometimes egg masses can be 3" to 5" around.

Adult shiners will aggressively eat fish fry. Number of adults stocked will determine impact on fathead production.

Two to five pounds of fatheads in 1/3 acre will produce more fatheads then you will get harvested. Breeder sized fatheads run about 150 to 250 per pound (2"-2.5"). If you stock too many breeders you will have poor growth and have way too many tiny (1") fish at harvest time. The first year I would stock fewer numbers and learn what the pond will produce. Are you going to fertilize or feed ground pellets?

I buy fatheads that weigh 3 lbs/1000. TH golden shiners will not only eat fry but I believe may also eat eggs so it may not be a good combo. I suggest fertilzing and feeding starter pellets to maximize numbers. You could harvest throughout the year with a minnow trap to maintian better growth of fatheads.

Thanks to both of you for the information. I did a little web researching last night and had come up with the following ball park numbers:

Fatheads at 75 to 150
Golden Shiners at 25 to 50

This is based on the pond being anywhere between 1/4th to 1/3rd or 1/2 acre in size. It's somewhere in that range. However, I'll heed your advice and not stock the goldens. I know where I can get my hands on some big ones anyway in the hopes of stocking breeders directly into the target pond I planned to breed them for.

I guess based on your suggestions and my little bit of research I'll opt for 150 to 200 fatheads.
I'll also sink/float some wood panels for breeding surfaces. I plan to net them through out the summer to transer to the target pond I'm taking care of, so that should gel with your advice. If I stock them this week how long into the summer should I wait before I do my first netting? I'm located in northeast Ohio if that helps.

I don't plan on feeding but I might fertilize. This pond is surrounded by dense brush and woods and as a result is as fertile as any swamp, with lots of weeds and that green particle weed (isn't it called duck weed?) floating on the surface by mid summer. Still, do you think fertilizing would be a wise idea? If so, give me a good guess on what I should use and what amount. Don't plan to test the water or anything as I'm trying to not to make this a major project.

If it is duckweed do not fetilize it will make grow more rapidly. If it gets thick can block sunlight and lead to a fish kill. ALso make darn sure if you transport fish you do not get any duckweed in the process and get it started in your pond.

I agree with Greg, if you have duck weed don't fertilize. Stimulating the duck weed will make minnow harvest a nightmare. I will take a month or two for fry to get big enough to trap based on trap mesh size.

I believe I'd concentrate on killing the duckweed before I did anything. There is no way you are going to keep it out of your bigger pond when you seine. It is going to stick to the forage fish and get transported.

I doubt that he will be able to seine the fathead/swamp/duckweed pond. He states that it is mucked in and now 2'to3' deep and surrounded by dense brush and wood. He will have to use traps to remove fatheads. Can you imagine seining and wading that pond with 3 to 4 ft of black sludge and brush around the shoreline?. I would like to see someone seine that pond.

Thanks again for the info. The duck weed isn't present at this time but by late summer the pond usualy has a good coating of it. Good advice on not contaminating the target pond with it. I always figured duck weed only prospered on shallow swampy ponds like this one. I can easily trap the minnows as screen them so that isn't a big deal.

Now I'm wondering about how to prevent the duck weed from taveling along for the ride. Hmmm...maybe I could "wash" the minnows by placing them in a holding tank of tap water that has been treated to remove the chemicals and is aerated, then dip netting them out into still another holding tank for travel to the target pond? I'll try to figure something out but would be interested in your ideas.

Maybe I'm wrong here but just wash out the minnow trap with freshwater. The duckweed should float off the trap then realease the minnows in the pond. It should not be hard to keep the duckweed out just be aware of it. I have had clients put in plants from other sources and they never paid attention to the little green things floating along with the plants. Just being aware of it should help. Also if it is just starting to show why not try to rid of it with a Reward application?

Here's an update on the skinny bass problem. I fished the pond a couple of times this week and averaged about 10 to 15 bass caught on each trip, of which about 1/3rd of them were the biggest bass I've caught yet...in the 13-15" range and showing good bellies on them. Still, I'm catching smaller/thinner bass. I'm also seeing tons of last year's bluegill spawn in the shallow water, ranging in size from tiny to 2-3" in size. My main concern now is not taking out too many bass. If I do still feel the need to remove more bass should I only remove the ones under 12", or should I also remove a few of these bigger ones I'm starting to see to give that size class more room to grow? Only time will tell as the water warms up if I start catching tons of the small ones like last year, that will tell me to remove more of those.

PS- I stocked 12 dozen fatheads in the breeder pond a few days ago, and may throw another 12 dozen in this weekend.

Critter,

work on those smaller/thinner bass. throw back fish that look good. If you can weigh fish for relative weight that will help. harvest 20-25 pounds of bass per acre for this year. In fertilized ponds I remove 20 pounds of bass every year. In unfertilized ponds cut back to around 10 pounds. this is just general advice, let your relative weights determine your harvest.

Based on my experience I have seen catch rates stay the same or sometimes even go up with bass harvest. I think its becasue bass are getting the food they need and are willing to expend more energy.

keep culling 'em, you wont be sorry

I would throw back the bigger ones if your goal is quality bass. Harvest the ones that are stunted. This is indicated by low RW's and something like 80% of your bass or greater in a small size calss such as 10-12 inches. This will indicate the bass that need to be harvested. Although bass overharvest if possioble, I would think you still need to keep on taking them out, it is all about your goals for the pond.

mike robinson, i'm curious about the fathead comment. were you refering to a pond with crappie? my pond doesn't have crappie. i stocked in september, bass, bluegill, and catfish and 20 pounds of fathead minnows which spawned on the wooden pallets i put out. i also have some fish feeders which throw out both sinking and floating fish feed (the sinking is 1/3 the price). i thought, hey, the more minnows, the more the bass would eat, the bigger the bass. sure, they will eat the bluegill too, but i'm not clear on the fathead comment. i was planning to put in about another 30-50 pounds of fathead minnows this spring...?good or bad idea? also, why don't christmas trees make good cover? thanks, mark

how far north are tilapia recommended? how big a pond for tilapia? what age of pond if newly stocked pond. would critter hunter benefit from tilapia as a forage fish rather than him using the crappie as a forage fish? just a thought.

I think Mikes point is when you add additional forage fish, you are not adding to the total pounds of forage in the pond. If you add 20 pounds of minnows then you take away the food available for 20 pounds of other fish in the pond, including bass fry. Its seems like the boys up north have to be very careful when stocking additional fish. They dont have the bass "factory" situation like down south. They can drasticly effect the fishery by adding addtional fishes up there.

I think fathead minnows are good for new ponds. they give bass fry another fish to eat as they grow. I have never seen a pond that has an established fathead population with adult bass. Bass seem to eat them all up. I question there effectivness as additional forage in established ponds. They are simply too small, remember bass have to eat 10 pounds to gain one pound. Ten pounds of fathead minnows is a lot of fish. Why would you want your bass swimming around hunting 2 inch fish? Its like running a maraton to eat an M & M. not worth it!

I think bass will grow faster and be happier eating larger meals, like bluegill or shad. Fatheads are for giving newly stocked bass a quick and easy meal during the first year. After that I would worry about bluegill reproduction and not the fatheads.

forgot about the tilapia

Tilapia are not legal in Georgia and I assume many other states. Be sure to check regulations before stocking this exotic.

My understanding (as I obviously have not experience with tilapia) is they wont survive the winter here in Atlanta.

Shan, My thought about adding fatheads to an existing pond: They are very prolific and provide protien to smaller bass, bluegills, etc. I have a 1/4 acre (in good times) pond that I have bluegills and fatheads in. I seine a couple of times a year to provide food for mine and a neighbors pond. My only concern is adding to the overall biomass.

Am I kidding myself about helping the smaller parts of the food chain to ultimately help the larger predators or should I shoot for a self sustaining body of water? Understand that after 2 DO crashes, I no longer fertilize.

Dave, if I can jump in...I understand where you are coming from with fatheads for smaller fish to forage upon. However the way I feel it works is that all you are doing is adding minnows that are quickly gobbled up by whatever predator comes by. At $8/lb it would take lots of money to help the small fish help the big fish. Now if they are free, (your time for seining) then throw them in it doesn't hurt. I think putting in more supplemental food used by the bluegill to put on more weight that are eaten by the bass is a better way to go.

ABout Tilapia, if they were legal in GA I would use them in my southern ponds. They occupy a little diff niche than bluegill and reproduce at higher rates. When I shocked Ray Scott's Lake he had them up to 10 inches and were hanging around the feeders. I would not consider them unless in an area where water temp is above 70 for more than 5 months.

Dave,

the fatheads have to live long enough to produce all those fry you are talking about. I dont think they do. I think the bass are much faster and eat them very fast. In the south I think adding additional forage can be more helpful than harmful, but your forage needs to be stocked into a situation where it has a chance to survive. When starting off with a bass crowded pond I prefer to harvest bass for at least one year and usually for 2-3 years before stocking additional bluegill (or any other forage) Most of my clients dont have tons of money to throw at the pond, meaning they wont spend several thousand dollars for stocking thousands of additional forage fish. And thousands of forage fish are what you need if you stock them into a pond full of hungry 10-12 inch bass. Its far more cost effecive to remove bass before stocking or (in some cases) the forage fish return on their own. The situation changes when the P/R ratio is more balanced but you can still waste money very quickly and only give your bass a fast, expensive snack with additional forage. I dont like throwing thousands of fish around to "help" the food chain. I see it a lot and I think the guy who benefits most is the one selling you the fish. I think your time is more well spent understanding the balance between predator and prey, using feed and fertilizer to increase biomass, and learning to grow fish. I have a few guys that throw money at the pond like its nothing and they have some nice fish. I can take you to more ponds where no forage was added, they have some nice fish too.

pulling a seine and adding addtional fish probably wont hurt, but I'm quite sure if you stopped you would not notice any difference.

Greg and Shan, Thanks for the advise. I'll probably keep on seining. That is, on the rare occasions where I can get someone on the other end of the seine. It has hit the point where the fatheads and bluegill over spawn in the forage pond. If I don't get some out, they die.

So far, I don't have that many bass. I stocked about 2 years ago and I seldom catch over one or two in a one acre pond. They seem to range from eleven to thirteen inches. Next year, I may start having problems if I don't get some out.

That's how I feel about it...seining and stocking fatheads in huge numbers can't hurt. I'm breeding fatheads in a fishless shallow pond through the summer to seine and stock in the target pond. I'd like to think (ignorance is bliss) that I'm at least putting some weight on the "forage" fish, such as perch, crappie and bluegill...which in turn will provide a bit more meat to the bass preying on them.

I know many people think fatheads are a waste of money but like he said, free is free if you can grow your own. I've also seen billions of fatheads in some wild strip ponds I fish in southern Ohio. These ponds aren't stocked, and contain plenty of bass, crappie, and bluegill. I can't say why the fatheads survive in such large numbers, but maybe it has something to do with the amount of brush and beaver cuttings lining the banks for them to hide in.

There was a discussion a month or so ago on this forum in which some people wondered if bluegill will eat fatheads. I can say with out a doubt that when I fish with fatheads below a bobber I catch lots of bluegill, and they tend to be the bigger bluegill in the pond on average compared to using maggots.

Another thing to think about...when I stock small fish from the fish farm into this established pond (smaller fish are cheaper but more prone to being ate by the bass), I like to dump a bunch of fatheads into the pond a few minutes before stocking the other fish. I do this in the hopes that the fatheads will distract the predators while the other fish can find places to hide. Probably fooling myself, but hey...