Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Northern CA Fish Hatcheries...

And California's stocking densities are 150, 200-1000 LMB-BG for a highly fertile pond, 100, 125-750 for an average pond. This data was based on Southeast US, then tested, and modified to fit our local conditions. They take into account arid, dry conditions, heavy predation and a more rapid establishment of a useable fishery.

The stocking tables are guidelines, and can be modified with an experienced local pond manager. That be me.

The guidelines are set to produce a fast balanced fishery not lunkers or trophy bass. In my experience a pond in NorCal is not very likely to produce many lunker bass unless it is trout stocked. Too many cold months where the bass just go off thier feed. Plus a pond that size just does not have the room.

Duck says he wants his daughters to enjoy the fishery. I am in this business for my young boys. The trophy bass might be tough to achieve. But the majority of my customers want thier ponds kid friendly. So do I.

Pond Frog those are good numbers. I am familiar with UC Davis and if the area is as described ( more similar to a SE pond) that is good info.

The rates given for MS are for an infertile pond at 500 BG/RES per acre. The guy who heads the project and I have given pond mgt seminars together in the past and the rate for a fertile pond he suggests is 1000 with 100 LMB for a balanced pond as I noted earlier. Given the instructions for writing the pond mgt booklets across the SE for ag extension agencies most are for fish production on a sustained basis and are for infertile ponds. They were developed during the depression years and for food supply purposes. In that time period ponds were not limed and fertilized when needed so the instructions were for infertile waters. The general suggestion for fertile waters as I stated is 1000-100 for fertile SE ponds and 500-50 for infertile ponds. The book clearly states 10 to 1 BG/LMB.

Everything must be taken in context (which the UC Davis' info does.) Blind reliance on state mgt links to fish numbers without understanding the purpose and application is not only bad advice to others but is dangerous for the newbie. I have warned certain people of this before.

A balance pond is what most people enjoy. That or a put and take fishery is best for kids.

I think they are at least close. And with a pond that size aggressive culling can get you in balance, I would hope. I don't use the numbers as gospel, or with a grain of salt, just guidelines. To me the most important factor is customers or clients goals. Then a healthy balance of species, especially BG/LMB ratio. 15% is pushing it, but with minnows I think that would fly. If not you start culling. Last but not least is sustainability. I have seen a pond that exact size just ruined. Of course costs factor in, and boy do we get raped up here. Bright side is starting from scratch can be a whole lot easier than an established pond that went bad. No matter how long I do this, I am always learning and always humble. Thanks for the input.

lets try asking this again.

duckdude, how will you keep yer pond full during the summer?

if you dont have supplemental water, this will affect (or should affect) yer stocking strategy.

Wow guys! Thanks for all the good comments. As a biologist I knew that there had to be a lot more to managing a pond than beats the eye, but I now see that this stuff can be taken as far as one wants to take it!

I always tell my landowners that wetland managment is an art not a science and it appears that pond managment is no different.

As I stated before, my goal is for good solid bass fishing (no illusions of breaking any world records) and plenty of BG and RES for the kids. The catfish would be harvested heavily as we love to eat em.

My pond's water level will be static as I've purchased a Grundfos pump and will be installing 1400 watts worth of solar panels to provide plenty of water (thank you NRCS!).

Anyway, it's all good discussion and gives me something to ponder.

Thanks,
DD

As an accountant I had no clue as to what it took to manage a pond. I figured you have a hole, it has some water in it, it has some fish swimming around, how can I make this tax deductible?

And then I find out I have to manage the damn thing?!?!



Oh great, now I hate you.

I woudl like to see facts that support the claim that "most state agency recommendations were written during the Depression." That's not very flattering to the average state game and fish agency, which usually requires a bachelor's degree in fisheries science for all of their fisheries biologists. I would wager that contacting any of the agencies I listed would clear this up. It's pretty indefensible to characterize a recommendation coming from a degreed fisheries biologist as "dangerous," when the recommendation is much more likely to result in a balanced pond than the one being provided in this thread, especially if there is a good deal of cold weather in the area in question - more cold weather means less predation on bluegill by bass, not more. Pretty basic.

I only dream of static ponds. Reality is watching level drop daily and fearing all of the fish I love will be floating soon. You are blessed my son. Ponder Gambusia vs. Fatheads.

DD:

Can you tell me more about how to go about getting NRCS to help with the pump and solar? I'd really like to keep the water in the pond at a constant level, but it will take pumping water roughly 8-9 months out of the year. Which Grundfos pump do you have?

Thanks.

I stand a better chance of getting my HA to sponsor a trip to the moon than them blessing a pump tapping the depleted wells. That's just fantasyland for me. Some guys have all the luck, I got a rock.

DIED,
Last year NRCS in CA had a "Native Pollinator" initiative that brought in an extra $1 million to their WHIP (for those who don't know Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program....we love our acronyms in the Gov). Anyway, I knew I wanted to have a pond in my backyard and I'm a habitat biologist so I wanted to get as much habitat back there as possible. They (NRCS)had trouble getting people to do projects for native pollinators so they prioritized my project because I not only wanted a pond, native grasses and trees I was willing to do some native wildflowers, bee blocks etc. I felt that this was no concession on my part since who wouldn't want some cool native forbs blooming from mid-spring to late summer.

I likely wouldn't have been funded had I not gone for the pollinator stuff. As it turned out, I got money for excavation of the pond, a 40 gpm solar pump, native grasses, trees and wildflowers. What a deal!

Unfortunately, it sounds like the additional pollinator money may have been a one shot deal. I would encourage you though to talk to your local NRCS folks in El Dorado County.

Beware though, not all offices are created equal. I live in Butte County and our people are willing to help out. Some gov't workers have figured out that they'll get paid whether they administer their program or not.

Although I don't cover your area, I do know who does for the Fish and Wildlife Service. I may be able to help you out if you don't have any luck with NRCS.
DD

By the way, I bought the 40SQF-5. My water is at 20 ft. down and with pumping I'll be pulling it from 30ft. I should be able to get 40 gpm with 1400 watts. The problem is that's a lot of panels!

Interesting stuff Duckdude!

Jeffhasapond,
Soooooo, about you seeking an opportunity to make a pond tax deductible? Any luck? Wanna share your results with the group????

Couppe

Always.
No.
Not particularly.



The short answer is that in order to obtain any deduction related to pond expenses the pond must be used in some form for the production of income (raising and selling fish, a fee for fishing business) or for certain farmers under certain circumstances as a conservation measurement. Farmers have a completely unique set of internal revenue code that govern what they can deduct and how they can deduct it and to be perfectly honest I'm not that familiar with this area of tax code.

So far I haven't taken any steps to either create a farm or create an income producing activity at my place so this pretty much rules out any tax deduction.

Someday however, when Green Sunfish are truly appreciated for the magnificent fish that they are, I shall be sitting on the proverbial gold mine.

I was mostly being silly but difficult to see a persons facial expressions. lol.

I actually have about 24 acres in the conservation program on the home place for trees and quail preservation but that is another topic altogether.

Thanks for responding to the question, good stuff....

thats great info duckdude, thanks. i never considered seeking federal assistance, and my county is well known for its indifference. even if i did seek and recieve an offer of assistance, my geographic area is much more problematic in finding productive groundwater than yours. i live on bedrock and the water travels in discrete fractures which are not easy to locate. it could take tens of thousands of dollars of trying to locate a producing vein, and if you found any, it might be at depths as great as 900 feet, from which no practical solar array could extract the water.

i'm glad to see you have some real water available, as you probably already figured, to put 1 inch of water in a 1 acre pond takes over 25,000 gallons. to keep up with an inch per day loss due to evaporation and/or slight leaking would require 15 to 20 gpm ballpark. sounds like you got that covered!!

Dave,
Yeah, it was a real shocker when I realized how much water it was going to take to keep it up in the summer.

I'm lucky in the fact that my pond was dug in 100% hardpan and I already had a previously drilled 8" ag well. However, I wasn't considering myself lucky when I was trying to dig through that hardpan!

DuckDude:

When I visit my local NRCS office, what questions do I need to ask them about the different programs?

Esshup,

I'd just go in and inquire about all their different conservation programs. They get hundreds of millions of dollars a year through the Farm Bill for the various programs like Wildlife Habitat Incentive Program (WHIP), Environmental Quality Incentive Program (EQIP), Wetland Reserve Program (WRP), Conservation Security Program (CSP) just to name a few. Without getting into too much detail, all the programs have specific landowner/property eligibility requirements. I've included the webpages for WHIP and WRP since they are the most common conservation programs that I've used.

You want to think about it from their prospective when you are seeking government assistance. They may have specific goals that on the outside don't match up with your goals, but they may be willing to meet you half way. In my case, I was okay with incorporating the native forb/hedgerow into my project and they were then okay with helping me on my pond and pump.

You also need to be as creative as possible when you let them in on your plans. When I speak to them about my pond I never refer to it as a fish (bass) pond. I say that it's a permanent wetland that we excavated deeper than usual to preclude encroachment of emergent vegetation (aka. cattails, tules, etc).

When we talk about the species that will benefit from the pond, we talk about all the sensitive wetland dependent species that live in my area (eg. western pond turtles, giant garter snakes, American bitterns and locally breeding waterfowl to name a few). All state and federally listed species as well as waterfowl are what are known as "Federal Trust Resources" and projects benefitting these are a program priority.

Your neck of the woods may be different, but in my area no one wants to fund a bass pond. However, because fish find their way into nearly every watercourse then having fish in a permanent wetland isn't considered a travesty. I just don't advertise that I'm actively putting them in there.

In the case of aquaculture, NRCS is big on this and cost share and assistance is readily available to benefit these operations.

I can be more specific about the requirements and goals of easch individual projects if needed, but my recommendation is to enquire from them as to what types of projects have been spending their money on locally and then try to figure out how to incorporate some of their ideas into your own plan.

Good luck and let me know how it goes. Maybe I can give you some pointers.
DD

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DD:

Thanks. I'll delve further into it later on tonight.