Pond Boss Magazine
http://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Bearman, awlakes, mountainman1, 5points, Engr. Mahfuzur
15489 Registered Users
Forum Stats
15490 Members
36 Forums
35704 Topics
486492 Posts

Max Online: 1039 @ 03/28/13 02:44 PM
Top Posters
esshup 24027
Cecil Baird1 20043
ewest 19377
Dave Davidson1 13432
Bill Cody 12398
Who's Online
19 registered (Hammertime75, DADx4, Quarter Acre, Cisco, Brad C, Nate W, Matzilla, SetterGuy, LeighAnn, BrianL, Theo Gallus, Pondwish, FireIsHot, Dave Davidson1, Redonthehead, jludwig, Bob-O, Acoursey, NEDOC), 240 Guests and 464 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#188673 - 10/21/09 09:29 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Bodock]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12398
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Normally I prefer a spring stocking so newly introduced fish coincide with the production of the new crop of foods in the spring. Over the years I have found that sometimes certain species or sizes of fish were all sold out in fall and then not available in spring unless one traveled further distances to get a specific species or size. Bottom line do a little homework in advance, know your fish supplier, and the availability and size of the species you want to stock. Often scarse fish in the spring are SMB, RES, walleye, pike, musky, pumpkinseed, and larger(10"-12")HSB. Larger SMB (6"-8") are always scarse and demand a high price (usu 2X LMB $). During hard winters (heavy snow cover) in the north even some common species and sizes such as LMB fingerlings (or 4"-6") are sometimes scarse and hard to find especially at the smaller local fish farms.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#188714 - 10/21/09 11:02 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Bodock]
Theo Gallus Online   content
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12369
Loc: Central Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Bodock
This is a timely subject. This begs the question whether one should stock a new lake with fingerlings in the winter or wait until early Spring. If fish don't grow in the winter it seems all your doing is exposing your investment to bird predation, possible winter kills, and more. Of course all the hatchery guys are pushing to stock ASAP regardless.

In addition to the availability points Dr. Perca made, fish stocked in the Fall are present and eating (assuming food is available in the pond) during late Fall and early Spring, even if no growth occurs in the dead of Winter.

I stocked 3" to 6" SMB 11 months ago (Nov 2008) into a new pond full of FHM and Gams. I was very happy with the growth they had managed by the time the usual Spring stocking season rolled around this year.


Edited by Theo Gallus (10/21/09 11:05 AM)
_________________________

Non carborundum illegitimatus!
(totus res in temperantia)

I subscribe, but won't pay Photobucket.

Top
#188721 - 10/21/09 11:28 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Theo Gallus]
Bodock Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 98
Loc: SW Tennessee
[quote=Theo Gallus}
In addition to the availability points Dr. Perca made, fish stocked in the Fall are present and eating (assuming food is available in the pond) during late Fall and early Spring, even if no growth occurs in the dead of Winter.[/quote]

Interesting. So you're saying in addition to the risks of late fall stocking I previously mentioned also much of the feeding I'd likely attempt to do (with sinking feed nonetheless so I couldn't tell if it was getting eaten) would be largely throwing money away because the fish wouldn't grow much if at all? It seems waiting until March 1st is making more and more sense.
_________________________
3 Ponds: 8.5 acres, 1.5 acres, 0.5 acres

Top
#188723 - 10/21/09 11:54 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
andedammen Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Norway
The fish has a energibudget.
Absorbd energi is split beetwene, metabolisme,somatic growth, and reproductione.
The growth rate is then deteremined/efectet by:
1. themperature C/F and acses to Nutrientes.SEASON in NATURE
2. life sycleus (age)SEASON in LIFE

By nature this are given factors, each spicies has an ideal, and a upper/lower toleranse in habitat demands, furthermore a maximum lifespan.
Within these boundries we/you/me/? can manipulate.
The formula is a mix of 1. and 2. you prolong the optimal natural cross seasons, for gowth, with in the cost$/time limit you have.

PAUL
_________________________
PAUL

Top
#188742 - 10/21/09 02:06 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Theo Gallus]
Theo Gallus Online   content
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12369
Loc: Central Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Bodock
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus

In addition to the availability points Dr. Perca made, fish stocked in the Fall are present and eating (assuming food is available in the pond) during late Fall and early Spring, even if no growth occurs in the dead of Winter.


Interesting. So you're saying in addition to the risks of late fall stocking I previously mentioned also much of the feeding I'd likely attempt to do (with sinking feed nonetheless so I couldn't tell if it was getting eaten) would be largely throwing money away because the fish wouldn't grow much if at all? It seems waiting until March 1st is making more and more sense.

Nope, I'm saying that in exchange for the risks your fish take from being in until March 1, they get to grow some (if there is proper food for them to eat. I'm staying out of the Winter pellet feeding debate as well). Whether that includes during the dead of Winter or not, you can refer to the above discussion, but while temps are in the middle, they will be eating and growing some.


Edited by Theo Gallus (10/21/09 02:08 PM)
Edit Reason: caveat added
_________________________

Non carborundum illegitimatus!
(totus res in temperantia)

I subscribe, but won't pay Photobucket.

Top
#188754 - 10/21/09 03:06 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Theo Gallus]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19377
Loc: Miss.
...and if they have food they will become acclimated to the pond and be ready to spawn at the earliest opportunity. That is a big + . In addition itís a risk management choice. Itís one thing to risk a small amount of $ on FH or a few 3-5 inch BG and something entirely different to plan your entire stocking $ on the risk.

Here is the point. Do you want to pay for and stock 1000+ BG per acre in May/June - letís say 3000 BG @ .25 = $750+ or do you want to risk $50-100 and buy 50 advanced 4-6 inch BG and stock them in November and watch them spawn in April/May @ +- 20,000 offspring per couple - thatís 500,000 potential new BG . Many will be morts but you will get a lot more to 3-5 inches by summerís end than by stocking 3000 2 inch fish in May. Of course you can split the risk and do some of both and have several size classes by next fall. My usual choice.

I understand both methods and have used them and others successfully. I like the idea (Bob and Billís) of the fish growing up in the pond and thinking outside of the box about concepts. IMO the fish to bet your pond on are the ones born there not necessarily the 2 inch ones you buy and put in. That is a key difference. The first fall/winter stocked fish in low #s are not the ones I want to use up the ponds carrying capacity. Itís their yoy I want in that prime position. They will grow-up in a nearly empty pond from day 1 not day 90. In addition I can do a better selection for quality job on 4-6 inch BG than I can on 2 inch .

Itís all about the time , risk , availability , goals and planning.

I note andedammenís use of the bioenergetics model. Good point which we should all learn to use and think more about. It really fits this thread on winter growth. Here is the last time it was discussed.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post126419




Edited by ewest (10/21/09 03:28 PM)
_________________________















Top
#188767 - 10/21/09 04:35 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
andedammen Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Norway


Here is the point. Do you want to pay for and stock 1000+ BG per acre in May/June - let’s say 3000 BG @ .25 = $750+ or do you want to risk $50-100 and buy 50 advanced 4-6 inch BG and stock them in November and watch them spawn in April/May @ +- 20,000 offspring per couple - that’s 500,000 potential new BG . Many will be morts but you will get a lot more to 3-5 inches by summer’s end than by stocking 3000 2 inch fish in May. Of course you can split the risk and do some of both and have several size classes by next fall. My usual choise

It’s all about the time , risk , availability , goals and planning.[/quote]

I think an esentiale pharametre,is to be honest/realistic in assesment, off costs/risk/effort involved, and that vill allways have to include the naturale Advantadges/Dissadvantedges within grasp/reach, an play along with them, at the best off your own knoledge/exsperience, wich vill keep growing for as long you are up/in to it.
So put in a stake you can afford to loose, in balance with, lesson learnd I`d like another go.
_________________________
PAUL

Top
#188783 - 10/21/09 07:46 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: andedammen]
Bodock Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 98
Loc: SW Tennessee
That's some good advice y'all have just given. Thank you and thank Pond Boss. Perhaps fewer #s of larger CNBG and a full stocking of FHM & golden shiners this fall then add some 2-3" CNBG along with Threadfins in early Spring. Then LMB in June.
_________________________
3 Ponds: 8.5 acres, 1.5 acres, 0.5 acres

Top
#188806 - 10/21/09 10:02 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
 Originally Posted By: ewest
Cecil I have been doing some checking. What reference (pg / ft.nt. # , etc) in the Bluegill book are you referring to?


I couldn't tell you Eric. After reading the book I gave it to Bill Cody.

One thing I have not seen addressed here unless I missed it is, fish are in better condition in the fall after a summer of growth vs. coming out of winter. I've seen fungal problems from seining fish early in the spring.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/22/09 10:35 AM)
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







Top
#188815 - 10/21/09 10:26 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12398
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Eric, On page 123, last parag. of the BG book you and Cecil are discussing, it says in reference to Cecil's winter BG growth comment: "Those(BG) near Kalamazoo continued to grow through winter, in one pond adding 20% in length and 50% in mass(1004). Some of these fish reached 150mm TL in 17 months." Ref: Krumholz 1946, TAFS 76:190-203.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/21/09 10:46 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#188817 - 10/21/09 10:30 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Bill Cody]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
I believe there is something about winter bluegill growth in Kosciusko county lakes in northern Indiana. Shoe Lake comes to mind.

Why aren't you wading into this Bill? Not chicken are you?

Baak, baak, baak!


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/22/09 10:36 AM)
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







Top
#188877 - 10/22/09 10:28 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19377
Loc: Miss.
Bill I will check it tonight. To be clear - my point is that the part of the book on growth provides good info over a large area from many studies and many more lakes/ponds and the results are all over the place on BG winter growth even in just IN.

Eric - All I was doing for this topic was providing the reference in question. It will be interesting to see your review of the article and its methods. I am curious if this is an average growth rate or taken from the fast growing fish in the population.

Bill - check your mail. The study has extensive stats and methods and models. I am not going to address them as they are way too complex to explain in PB Cutting edge space restrictions. Not sure I would try that even with unlimited space - only a statistician would enjoy that.



Edited by ewest (10/22/09 02:45 PM)
_________________________















Top
#188973 - 10/22/09 03:55 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
2trackin Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 62
Loc: SW Michigan
Hey I'm in Kalamazoo Michigan! Hopefully my bluegills (and trout) keep growing \:\)

Top
#189041 - 10/22/09 10:34 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: 2trackin]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19377
Loc: Miss.
A bit more info from Handbook of Freshwater Fishery Biology Vol Two , Carlander pg 112 "Feeding occurred in winter in Buckeye L. , OH, ... with fat accumulating in the tissue. ... In aquaria no feeding occurred below 3.3 C ,and feeding in ponds has been found at 3.9 C. In ponds there was no growth and little feeding at temperatures below 10 C. In a Michigan lake , bluegills fed little in winter , and caldocera where the major food in mid-winter. "

10 C = 50 F
3.3 C = 37.94 F
3.9 C = 39.02 F


Edited by ewest (10/22/09 10:35 PM)
_________________________















Top
#189097 - 10/23/09 12:27 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12398
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Cecil says: "fish are in better condition in the fall after a summer of growth vs. coming out of winter". Cody thinks this is definately true for those fish that have minimal amounts of food available during winter.

IMO fish will readily feed especially on natural foods in winter if items are abundant and avaiable. Ample natural foods in winter result in well fed fish, likely fat fish and in some cases slightly larger fish (growth). I emphasize natural or moist foods for winter feeding because several fish farm people have had fish mortality of some species of fish eating dry pellets in water colder than 50F. Cold water fish such as trout would the the exception here.

Cecil mentions that he has seen fish ingore his bait when ice fishing and concluded that fish was not hungry. I have seen the same behavior of fish in summer. IMO hunger in not always the main factor that a fish ignores a bait.

Water temperature, species of fish, and as mentioned by Hoxmeir et al (Eric above), "latitudinal clines in growth resulting from changes in temperature have previously been demonstrated for a number of freshwater fishes". I think populations of fish for example BG and their ability to grow at one specific temperature can be somewhat different at diffferent latitudes depending on the particular acclimatization and adaptability of those fish. Numerous factors determine fish growth during winter and the other seasons. One of the main ones is temperature as discussed here.
More later.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#189120 - 10/23/09 03:13 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
andedammen Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 414
Loc: Norway
 Originally Posted By: ewest
A bit more info from Handbook of Freshwater Fishery Biology Vol Two , Carlander pg 112 "Feeding occurred in winter in Buckeye L. , OH, ... with fat accumulating in the tissue. ... In aquaria no feeding occurred below 3.3 C ,and feeding in ponds has been found at 3.9 C. In ponds there was no growth and little feeding at temperatures below 10 C. In a Michigan lake , bluegills fed little in winter , and caldocera where the major food in mid-winter. "

10 C = 50 F

It seems to me that this is your dep. ewest?????

Her you have a link to a lecture on energetic on brown/brook trout study on local tribes from Greenland and in Norway.
On page 12 you can see that the studies are based on brook living in a temp. environemente that has rised from a averge of
C 4,9 to C 9,1 at the peek/hotest of summer(august)

http://dok.ebl-kompetanse.no/Foredrag/2008/Fiskesymposiet/Fjeld.pdf

I could not fine a english version hovever I did fine translation on the particulare studie from Greenland

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472-6785-6-10.pdf




3.3 C = 37.94 F
3.9 C = 39.02 F

_________________________
PAUL

Top
#189127 - 10/23/09 05:04 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: andedammen]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19377
Loc: Miss.
Thanks Andedammen I will take a look !
_________________________















Top
#191980 - 11/13/09 12:05 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
Gflo Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/11/09
Posts: 169
Loc: CA
Forgive me if I am totally off base, but it is my understanding that fish in general only "slow" their feeding in the winter when it is cooler because the lower temperatures take their digestive tracts out of the optimal temperature range for reactions to take place (the optimal pH / temperature balance).

This would effectively lead to a decreased rate in digestion (depending on the protein source / type).

Their digestive tracts are not processing food items optimally, so they don't eat as often because their digestive tract can only hold so much food, and process it only so quickly in sub-optimal conditions.

So what effect might this have on growth rate in the winter?

Well, for one we would need to take into account the type of protein / foodstuff being provided. What is the digestibility of the said food item?

Using common sense I would surmise that a fish (bluegill, bass, whatever, just arbitrary at this point) may not grow very quickly or very much at all if it is eating natural forage, and breaking down complex proteins.

It might be able to process the prey items just quickly enough with a lowered rate of digestion to maintain its current body weight, and maybe put on a little weight or grow a bit.

If that fish on the other hand were fed a high quality, highly digestible pellet based feed (Assuming that many of the same principles of livestock and companion animal nutrition are used in fish nutrition), then I would expect those fish to process those pelleted feeds at a higher rate than they would natural forage. I would expect to see a measurable amount of growth even during the winter on pellets. But then again, this is a gross generalization. Not everyone has the same intensity winters or water temperatures.

Sorry for bringing this topic back from the dead. It is a topic I am very interested in academically, although I'm more of a companion animal / ruminant nutrition kind of guy.

I could be totally off and have wasted your time. I don't know anything about fish really, I just assume from my studies that there is significant overlap between species and the principles of digestion. There are a lot of confounding factors like Genetics and probably all sorts of "crap", for lack of a better word, that I don't even know about.
_________________________
Dr. Flores D.V.M.

Top
#192013 - 11/13/09 10:49 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Gflo]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19377
Loc: Miss.
Gflo its never a waste to have questions asked. You have ask a very good one. I will do some checking. One point I note is you addressed one side of the growth question - energy in. The energy out (used) part is equally as important and furnishes the demand side of the equation for energy in. Itís not only a digestive function but also a metabolism question. Keep in mind that unlike many livestock type animals most fish are cold blooded and their energy demand slows greatly in cold conditions where as in warm blooded animals it increases to keep body temps up. This effects digestion and energy demand as well as other biological functions.

Another thought is the comparison of fish feed to live fish and other forage. While feeds are good and live forages have different nutrient results (not all forages are equal or the same) I don't think that feeds offer as much as live forage for growth. The best feeds are designed by doing an analysis of live prey (optimum diet) and trying to match them. They are good but not quite as good as the real thing. That is the main reason that the major ingredient in better feeds is fish meal and oil mostly from menhaden. These comments are for predator fish (LMB , HSB , BG , YP , trout etc) and there is some difference as to the omnivore types ( catfish and GShiners ) and even more difference as to the herbivore types (tilapia , shad , carp etc) at least as to the diet requirements for feed vs. live forage. Not all fish need more protein or fish as a source. That is one reason for the different types of feed. More later.
_________________________















Top
#192015 - 11/13/09 10:57 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
jeffhasapond Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
No need to apologize for bringing back an old thread Gflo, besides that thread was from October, heck I have pizza in the fridge that's older than that.

 Originally Posted By: Ewest
Another thought is the comparison of fish feed to live fish and other forage. While feeds are good and live forages have different nutrient results (not all forages are equal or the same) I don't think that feeds offer as much as live forage for growth.


Interesting, I shall wait impatiently, fingers drumming on the desk top until further clarification is posted.
_________________________
JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)

Top
#192204 - 11/15/09 03:02 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: jeffhasapond]
Gflo Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/11/09
Posts: 169
Loc: CA
After reading up for like 5 hours in our university scientific articles online database, my brain is in a world of hurt.

Basically,

This is what I have learned. The short story from well over 100 pages of text from like 20 or so articles (forgive me if I don't reference them... I pieced these thoughts together from a lot of fragmented studies...).

As far as the comparison of commercial fish feed to live forage.

There is evidence that there is a difference between commercial feeds and live forage (theoretical, unmeasured).

It has to do with the nutrients that make up those food sources.

Protein levels, for example, have been correlated with growth hormone levels. And other micro-nutrients and amino acids have had an elevating effect on hormones such as T4, and the deionization to T3.

I know I am being vague as far as specifics of which hormones specifically, and in what species of fish. Right now, that isn't important (and is extremely boring).

What is important is that studies are showing that levels of specific nutrient(s) components (such as protein, carbohydrates, lipids), and their ratios, may have an effect on circulating hormone levels (Growth Hormone Specifically).

So what does that mean?

This tells us that fish nutritionists could potentially formulate diets that will have an effect on the endocrine system, and increase circulating hormone levels that are directly correlated with growth.

Instead of looking at what feeds convert better, we could be looking at what feed compositions actually increase feed conversion on the physiological level. This goes beyond digestibility as it pertains to particle size of ingesta, surface area, etc. This is analogous to increasing growth via exogenous (injected) hormones like we do with cattle, except the hormones are endogenous (naturally occurring) through nutritional manipulations.

There are also a lot of confounding factors (problems) that need to be addressed.

There are boatloads of environmental factors that have been shown to affect circulating hormone levels, growth, and feed conversion in fish.

The first is the time in which the fish are fed, and the frequency.

In one study looking at trout in particular, those fish fed at night had higher growth hormone levels than those that were fed during the day at a frequency of one feeding every 24 hours.

In other species, it was totally backwards, and in others there was no difference at all. This makes this information not so useful at this point in time if we are talking about managing the growth of a variety of species.

The only important tid-bit that came out of this portion of the reading was that fish that are fed more than once a day had a higher circulating level of Growth Hormone (pretty much observed in most studied species). Basically, to maximize growth feeding more than once a day is ideal (theoretically... Real world results are what count!)

Whether or not those gains are really worth the extra hassle, I couldn't really say. I have no experience in the fish management arena, and the studies just stated that there were statistically significant differences, rather than stating weight gains (It was a review article talking about other primary research articles).

Another confounding factor is that for every hormone like Growth Hormone, there needs to be an active hormone receptor, like "Growth Hormone Receptor" (for our purposes).

Even if there is a change in endocrine function and level of Growth Hormone and other Insulin Growth Factors (Other junk that contributes to actual growth), that doesn't mean that it will be put to use.

Think of it this way. Lets say I have 5 basketballs. Lets also say that I have 3 hoops.

In this example...

Basketballs = Growth Hormone Circulating In The Fish.

Hoops = Growth Hormone Receptors (Where the points are scored, and actual change, or growth, is initiated).

If you shoot all 5 basketballs at the exact same time, then you will only score 3 baskets. You had an excess of basketballs (growth hormone), and not enough hoops (growth hormone receptor sites).

In this example, the fish's body doesn't react to having a high level of growth hormone. It ultimately only really matters how many receptors there are. That is the limiting factor.

Basically this means that even if nutrition can change circulating growth hormone levels in a fish, it may not even cause them to grow. Or maybe it will... Who knows... (Remember, hormones are not given to cattle because they don't work... They seem to have more than enough hormone receptors to make use of the excess hormone and grow).

There is a lot of other stuff, but my brain started hurting so I stopped.







So, if you want skip all that junk, here is the conclusion I have come to..

Commercial fish feeds have the potentially to overtake live fish and other forages as far as measurable growth is concerned. The keyword is potential. From what I've read there isn't really an indication that today, this is the case.

There is no reason to discount live forage. The main advantage of pelleted feeds when compared to an equally nutritious live fish prey item is that the pelleted feeds are designed so that an increased surface area of nutrients comes in contact with the digestive tract. This theoretically would increase feed conversion efficiency.

Commercial fish farming is really starting to take off, and I am confident that there is going to be a lot more research published in the next 10-15 years than there has ever been on freshwater fish. The quality of nutrition really increases exponentially when that happens.

I think its kind of funny how we know more about cattle, and take care of them better nutritionally than we do horses. A lot of people treat their horses better than members of their own family, yet nutritionists still don't know where horses are absorbing their vitamin K from. Its pretty important, and no one really has a clue, just theories. No one is really investigating it because no one is really throwing money at them, horse farming as far as growth is concerned isn't a substantial industry.


Anyhow, back on track.

This has got me curious. I am going to look into seeing if I can get an experiment going injecting some trout, bass, or bluegill with amino acids in an effort to see if any of them have an marked increase in circulating hormone levels.
_________________________
Dr. Flores D.V.M.

Top
#192207 - 11/15/09 07:31 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Gflo]
esshup Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24027
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Gflo:

Thanks for taking the time to research this. It's interesting!
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

Top
#192217 - 11/15/09 08:55 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Gflo]
Theo Gallus Online   content
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 05/14/04
Posts: 12369
Loc: Central Ohio
 Originally Posted By: Gflo
A lot of people treat their horses better than members of their own family ...

You'd understand, if you'd ever met my BIL.
_________________________

Non carborundum illegitimatus!
(totus res in temperantia)

I subscribe, but won't pay Photobucket.

Top
#199624 - 01/17/10 08:55 PM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: Theo Gallus]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19377
Loc: Miss.
Some additional info via Bass Times - Jan 2010 by Dr. Keith Jones director of Fish Research at Berkley about LMB in winter.

For every drop of 18 F in body temperature a bass' metabolic rate is reduced to 1/3rd its previous rate. Liver and digestive processes are hit especially hard. A meal of shad that at 70F took only 2 or 3 days to digest , at 60F may need 4 or 5 days to complete. The bass is beginning to struggle physiologically.

Around 60 F the outward behavioral signs of cooling may be marginal. From 60 to 50 F , however they become readily observable as the animal grows increasingly more sluggish. Dropping from 50 to 40 ... full fledged winter , the behavioral changes are major. At temperatures below 40 F ,bass essentially enter a state of dormancy. ...a large portion of the bass population will be resting with their pelvic fins and tails in contact with the bottom , wholly inactive with gill rates measuring about one breath per minute.

Cold bass can't swim very fast , long or far before tiring.
_________________________















Top
#199654 - 01/18/10 03:21 AM Re: Do Fish Keep Growing? [Re: ewest]
Gflo Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/11/09
Posts: 169
Loc: CA
All the stuff that contributes to fish growth like water quality, water movement, temperature, ph, nutrition, and Elevation*** (Hadn't thought of elevation before. Something to do with atmospheric pressure.) is confusing, but interesting.

I decided to take an aquaculture class this quarter, and I'm discovering what before should have been obvious. All of the above criteria vary between pretty much every species (even those subspecies closely related)... I'm having trouble keeping up.

With that said, I had a nice little tidbit of information in lecture the other day.

In trout and other salmonids it takes 330 grams of protein from a modern hatchery formulated diet to produce 1 pound of fish.

A natural forage diet however only takes 143 grams of protein in order to produce 1 pound of fish.

What does that tell us when we are talking about fish we currently know the most about nutritionally (followed closely by catfish of course)?

It tells us that we still are not getting the formula right, and there is a tremendous amount of room for improvement.

Ewest,

I think I am going to start bringing a thermometer with me and if the water is at around 40 degrees I might not even bother fishing. Then again, based on the intel you have provided I might just drag a night-crawler across the bottom reeeaaaallly slowwwww.

Do you know if that article was published just in the bass times, or is it going to be in a peer reviewed journal as well? I want to read up on that. Cool stuff.
_________________________
Dr. Flores D.V.M.

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Today's Birthdays
4D Ranch, gunsmoke
Recent Posts
Help Stocking my Pond in Central Virginia
by Quarter Acre
fhm question in 4 yr old pond
by SetterGuy
HOT!
by Dave Davidson1
10:17 AM
A Lighthearted Question for TJ
by Bob-O
10:13 AM
Chronicles of stocking Hybrid Striped Bass......
by NEDOC
10:10 AM
No bass recruitment in our lake??
by DavidB
09:30 AM
Sourcing alternate genetics in Iowa
by Acoursey
08:58 AM
Rotenone applicator in south central Kansas
by NEDOC
07:38 AM
how to watch podcast and when is it?
by jludwig
07:32 AM
Red ear spawning habits.
by snrub
10:20 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
CNBG
My Best Longear so far
Help ID this fish
Crayfish monster.
Turkey Pics
Question on pond draining

© 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide