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#197390 - 01/01/10 04:19 PM Ever have an air line contract via ice?
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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With all the talk about frozen air lines probably due to frozen condensation or water in the airline, has anyone had one freeze, contract and shut down where it entered the pond surface ice? I've run winter aeration for years and can't say I've ever had it happen. Could it be because I run them continuously, the air pressure keeps the air line from contracting? I'm also thinking the black color may have a low albedo effect when the sun is shinning, allowing melting around the hose? I've seen this around my pier in winter too.

Anyone?


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (01/01/10 04:26 PM)
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#197392 - 01/01/10 04:27 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
adirondack pond Offline
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Cecil, I have a check valve in the line underwater to keep water from backing up and freezing near the surface if we lose power, which happens alot up at the cabin.
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#197394 - 01/01/10 04:53 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: adirondack pond]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Cecil, I have a check valve in the line underwater to keep water from backing up and freezing near the surface if we lose power, which happens alot up at the cabin.



So you're saying water could come up and freeze then without a check valve? I always use them with the stones if I have them. Even with the rubber membrane although I've been told it's not necessary with them. Unfortunately I don't have one right now on one of the ponds. Hopefully if I have a power outage the water won't come up to the ice level as the pond bank is quite steep.

What determines the level the water will come up to?



Edited by Cecil Baird1 (01/01/10 04:56 PM)
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#197395 - 01/01/10 05:02 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
adirondack pond Offline
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I guess the check valve is something to lessen the odds of a freeze, but probably in most cases depending on the amount of ice and snow cover for insulation, it's not absolutely necessary.
It's cheap insurance so I figured I'd put one in. I also have foam insulation tubes covering the airline from the compressor to where it enters the water.
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#197396 - 01/01/10 05:11 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: adirondack pond]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Interesting.

I had a power surge once that caused one of my rotary vane compressors to run backwards. Now that is not something you don't want in the winter! Sucked water right up into the compressor! Dr. Perca knew someone in his area that fixed it cheaply for me.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (01/01/10 05:12 PM)
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#197398 - 01/01/10 05:39 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
scruffy_fish Offline
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Registered: 07/19/07
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Having first hand experience with frozen air lines, I have been trying to figure things out. I believe a check valve is a good idea although I didn't have the foresight to install one.

That being said, I don't believe water in the line will freeze while under water. It will freeze when it reaches the ice or the frozen ground. My air line, I'm asumming, has frozen because it was locked into the suface ice. I didn't weight the air line when I installed the system, now I'm paying the price.

Thanks to the help I recieved from the forum, I've been able to clear the line without to much trouble.


Edited by scruffy_fish (01/01/10 05:41 PM)

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#197400 - 01/01/10 05:59 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: scruffy_fish]
adirondack pond Offline
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Scruffy a good way to keep the soaker hose and airline submerged is to fill a seperate hose with sand and zip tie it to the soaker and air line.
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#197404 - 01/01/10 06:31 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: adirondack pond]
scruffy_fish Offline
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Good idea. I should have thought the whole aeration thing out more, but the weather was closing in and just had my head into other things.


Edited by scruffy_fish (01/01/10 06:34 PM)

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#197437 - 01/01/10 09:45 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: scruffy_fish]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: scruffy_fish
Good idea. I should have thought the whole aeration thing out more, but the weather was closing in and just had my head into other things.


Been there done that! On year I really got caught with my pants down. A hard freeze in early November and it just kept getting colder! Unfortunately as much as we'd like most of us can't live the pond thing 24/7 and have work to got to and bills to pay.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (01/01/10 09:46 PM)
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#197439 - 01/01/10 09:50 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
adirondack pond Offline
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Speaking of getting caught with your pants down, Cecil did you get your BG transferred into the RAS.
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#197466 - 01/02/10 12:12 AM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: adirondack pond]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Speaking of getting caught with your pants down, Cecil did you get your BG transferred into the RAS.


Not yet. Still waiting for the tank to cycle. One setback was we turned the thermostat down to 55 when we left for Florida. That most likely slowed things down.

I'm going to start adding a soupy mix of starter fish feed. The PHD down the road that runs a large sytem swears by it. He said 1/2 cup per day if I remember right. I'll have to find my notes.
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#197503 - 01/02/10 11:04 AM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Bill Cody Offline
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Quote was "fill a seperate hose with sand and zip tie it to the soaker and air line". One additional thing that should be done if you use this method is to punch holes in the hose with sand so it looses most of the air, sinks better and has less bouyancy. A benefit to using the hose filled with sand for weight is it reduces the chance of kinking the air line. A kinked airline is a BIG pain.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/02/10 11:06 AM)
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#197583 - 01/02/10 07:58 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Bill Cody]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Quote was "fill a seperate hose with sand and zip tie it to the soaker and air line". One additional thing that should be done if you use this method is to punch holes in the hose with sand so it looses most of the air, sinks better and has less bouyancy. A benefit to using the hose filled with sand for weight is it reduces the chance of kinking the air line. A kinked airline is a BIG pain.


Why not fill the hose with water instead of sand?
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#197587 - 01/02/10 08:07 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
burgermeister Offline
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Why not fill the hose with water instead of sand?

sand weighs 2 times as much as water per unit volume.
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#197599 - 01/02/10 09:00 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: burgermeister]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: burgermeister
Why not fill the hose with water instead of sand?

sand weighs 2 times as much as water per unit volume.


But wouldn't it be easier to fill with water and wouldn't water weight down the hose?
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#197652 - 01/03/10 11:46 AM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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I don't think the weight of one hose filled with water is enough to overcome the weight of another hose filled with air. Once the water filled hose is in the water, the only weight will be of the plastic that the hose is made from. I don't know if that plastic is denser than water or not.
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#197653 - 01/03/10 11:50 AM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: esshup]
Bill Cody Offline
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You need the weight of the sand and water in the weighted hose to overcome the bouyancy of the air in the attached airline and sometimes even that is not enough weight. It depends on the weight and wall thickness of one or both hoses. Try it you will learn.


Edited by Bill Cody (01/03/10 11:52 AM)
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#197657 - 01/03/10 11:59 AM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Bill Cody]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Interesting. I guess I assumed that since water is significantly heavier than air it would cancel out the air in the hose, even with the plastic that is buoyant.

At about eight pounds per gallon water is not that light.
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#197659 - 01/03/10 12:21 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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But, once the air hose is in the water, any water weight in the neighboring air hose is cancelled, and you only have the weight of the plastic air tubing to offset the flotation of the air in the tubing. If the plastic that the tubing is made from weighs less than 62.4# per cubic foot, then the tubing alone will float, not taking into account any air that is inside the tubing.
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#197666 - 01/03/10 12:38 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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But, but...

Never mind.
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#197668 - 01/03/10 12:43 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
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Perhaps a length of weighted tubing would be in order ( now where would one find such an animal?) \:\) but,but,but

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#197674 - 01/03/10 12:55 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN
Perhaps a length of weighted tubing would be in order ( now where would one find such an animal?) \:\) but,but,but


That's too simple Ted, and it cost more money.
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#197675 - 01/03/10 01:01 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
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Might have to work out a PB $$ special its been known to happen (simple is good) Did you hit zero this AM we hovered at 1F at 6 AM and finally making some serious ice for Ohio.(or are you still in Florida?)


Edited by Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN (01/03/10 01:04 PM)

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#197676 - 01/03/10 01:08 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN]
esshup Offline
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Ted, I hit 0*F this a.m. Brrrrrrrr!!!!!!

I'll probably be needing some weighted airline this coming year. I don't know if 100' will be enough. So, if there is a PB special, I'll probably be placing an order.
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#197718 - 01/03/10 07:09 PM Re: Ever have an air line contract via ice? [Re: esshup]
adirondack pond Offline
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You guys can do the calculations, but my sand filled hose attached to the soaker hose and airline been setting on the bottom for 1 1/2 years.
I first tried putting weights on the airline but the hose in between kept trying to surface.
The hose is capped at each end with a small hole in the caps.
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