Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Transplanting Native Michigan Blue Gill

I have a 1.5 acre, one year old pond in southern Michigan. What I have read about BG is that native BG are probably better as a forage fish than are HBGs. So I'm thinking I could catch some of these BGs from the lake I live on, in June, this summer coming up during the early spawning season (just before they lay their eggs), and move them to my pond on the farm.

What I wonder is does anyone think the egg laden BGs would have time or the inclination to nest and protect their eggs and young BG fry? Presently the only thing on the pond is a LOT of GS I stocked last May. I will also be putting in some Fat Heads this coming May.

My Plan is to start stocking some Yellow Perch and a few SMB in the fall.

Eventually I may add a few WI as the dominate predator, and a few RT just as a bonus fish. These species I realize will have to be added a few at a time each year because I don't expect them to be able to spawn.

Marry Christmas to all.

I would be very surprised if BG transplanted in Spring to early Summer did not pull off a spawn afterwards.

Could you list all the species you plan to stock and your goals?

My Pond Goals are: Fish to eat (W/O feeding), Swimming, Irrigation for xmas tree seedlings (Plantation), & natural habitat for general esthetics of the property (20 acres).

Species I plan to stock include:

As many DIFFERENT kinds of minnows as I can find but mainly GS and FHs.
Native BGs
Yellow Perch (harvest for eating as needed)
SMB (harvest for eating as needed)
Walleye, 5yr stocking rotation, (harvest for eating as needed)
RT, 5yr stocking rotation, (harvest for eating as needed)

The pond already has a plentiful bounty of crayfish and frogs, and I have also spotted some pretty good size snapping and painted turtles which apparently have crawled in from my neighbor's pond. I also plan to add some Bull Frog tad poles this spring.

Aquatic weeds which I saw this first summer include: Canarie Grass, Water Primrose, Arrowhead, Chara, and green & brown Algae. Some cattails have also started to emerge.

Sounds like a great property and pond you have... What species of tree are you growing for the Christmas trees?

With the stocking of the BG, you're gonna have to work very hard to keep them from overpopulating and stunting. SMB are not nearly as efficient as LMB at keeping BG numbers under control. Even with the addition of the walleye, you still may struggle to keep the BG under control. You may have to utilize another control method such as some sort of trapping program.

Also, unless you want a pond completely taken over by cattails, keep them nipped in the but early and often. If not, they will most likely get out of control and then be much harder to manage. I like cattails myself, but they can be tough to keep in line. I would encourage other marginal species like arrowhead, pickerel weed and certain irises.

Do you currently have any species of fish in the pond now or is it barren?

In my experience you will have continual problems with too many BG if you rely on SMB and a few WE to control them. A very few forum members here are trying SMB with BG. I have yet to hear of consistant long term success of smallies effectively controlling BG and having larger BG for harvest. Smallies are not adapted to eating BG like largemouths. RES due to their low reproduction, are acceptable with SMB and should survive fairly well in southern MI. They occur naturally and reproduce in a few southern MI lakes.

Overabundant BG will bother (pecking and nipping) the swimmers expecially the women and girls. They will not be happy campers. If you want BG stock only males. There is information on this forum (search) for selecting male BG and in back issues of PBoss mag (see Archives for 2006 Indexes and Contents). For growing the best SMB read my 5 articles in 2009 issues of PB magazine.

I agree with Bill and CJ. SMB are not , in normal numbers , an adequate predator control for BG.

Bill how do those BG know to especially nip and peck at the women and girls ?

I grow Douglas, Concolor, Fraser, & Balsam Fir; Blue spruce, and some Scotch & white Pine. It is all "choose and cut" and I have a 1/2 mile wagon ride that the kids really love. When the pond starts to have some decent size fish I want to invite all my tree customers and their kids, out in the fall for fishing tournaments, and I will give away a tree for the largest fish in each species.

As for the current species in the pond, I put in the GS fry last spring, and about 30 BG during the summer which my grand children caught from the lake I live on. Other than that there could be some other kinds of minnows from my neighbors pond because his pond discharges into mine during the spring runoff.

I had heard that WE would eat BG up to about 4" in length. Could I add more WE to control the BG if they get out of hand? How about a Northern Pike or Two? Or, would the pike be more likely to eat the perch and SMB?

I plan to use as much Glyphosate as I need to hold the cattails to just the perimeter areas I want cattails in. I have some experience with this chemical treating selected area of the xmas tree plantation, and the lake shore where I live. (Roundup and Rodeo)

I do subscribe to pond boss, and was inspired to stock the SMB partially by your articles. However, in my neck of the woods it is imposable to keep BG out of a pond for very long. Too many water bodies and too many birds to bring them in. So I have decided not to fight that issue. If I add RES to the mix I don't think it would change the eventual BG population? I need a predator to eat them, other than LMB.

TMK, your mention of birds bringing in fish or eggs from other sources has been discussed on the forum with differing opinions, and some funny hypothesis.

Another suggestion for forage could be stocking pumpkinseeds, they seem to produce half the eggs of BG, and being smaller would be easier for SMB to control.

OK I checked some of my local fish supply sources and no mention of "Pumkinseed". If memory serves me correctly aren't "Pumkinseeds" some sort of Sunfish?

Yes, Pumpkinseeds belong to the same family as BG and RES and can interbreed with them.
PS's should also be in lakes and rivers in Michigan, there are fish farms that sell them in NY, but I'm not sure about MI.
http://www.fish.state.pa.us/pafish/fishhtms/chap22.htm

Ewest asks? ""Bill how do those BG know to especially nip and peck at the women and girls?"" That is a very good question. Everyone pay attention. Actually the women and girls get bit more than guys because the "girls" spend a lot more time lounging on "floaties" with dangling appendages in the water than the guys do. Guys tend to be more active swimmers. Motionless swimmers have a much better chance of attracting hungry nipping BG/sunfish. This factoid is maybe something new that many of you learned today.

Alright, since you ALREADY have BG in the pond, you will have to deal with them.

Northern pike. Whenever I dealt with a few pike in a LMB-BG pond I found the pike targeted the bass more than the BG due to body shape - fusiform (bass) vs oblate ellipsoid (BG-sunfish). Various research studies also found this to be true. Pike habitually remain motionless awaiting optimum prey items. The larger the pike gets the larger the fish it usually targets for its decisive energy burst and targeted meal. IMO pike learn that bass provide an optimum high biomass meal that includes a short handling time. Research has shown handling time after capture is very important to predators.

Redears - Since you have BG the RES will not be that big of a benefit to your MI fishiery unless you have snails (prey item & parasite vector) common in the pond. Probably not valuable enough to your fishery for you to spend lots of effort finding and getting them. Main benefit of RES instead of BG for your case was their low reproductive potential.

In reality if your yellow perch are common they will eat more small BG than a few walleye just because there are many more YP as predators feeding than walleye(WE), esp during winter when one MI study showed YP target small BG. Only the larger WE (24-26" will be eating the 4" BG. I would not count on WE to eat many BG esp if you have YP and small bass in the pond. I have watched pond walleye (16-22") feeding in clear water under my dock and IMO they will eat more small YP than BG if both species of panfish have a similar density and small size (2"-3"). WE often lie motionless close to the bottom in wait for optimum foods to swim by.

If you want the challenge of going with the SMB, get them in ASAP so they can get established before another BG spawn. IMO Stock on the heavy side (80-100/ac) and try to use 2 size groups or classes (1&2 yr olds). For the first several years plan a management program of intense and or frequent MANUAL thinning of BG (1"-4"). IF after 3-5 years the BG are still very common and annual numbers caught are not dwindling then strongly consider adding LMB annually until BG numbers of the small sizes seen to stabalize. IMO whenever one wants effective control of a reproducing BG population, LMB is the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choices for most effective and efficient predator.

OK I'll drop my plan for anymore spring Native BG Stocking.

I have one more question however. Zetts, sells a yellow perch they call a "Seminole Striped Yellow Perch" said to be the largest varity from a european source; up to 16" in length. If YP are going to eat small BGs wouldn't bigger be better?

http://zettsfishhatchery.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/CompleteCatalog.pdf

Also, what about the "Green Sunfish" instead of the BGs?

http://zettsfishhatchery.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/CompleteCatalog.pdf

Green sunfish will overrun the entire pond within a year or less in the absence of a good LMB population. Most hatcheries won't even sell them. I have had good experiences with Zetts though. I don't know anything about Seminole Perch.

Just because you read something in print does not make it absolutely true. IMO the seminole perch is a local hatchery trade name and they are not 3rd party tested and proven to be a more rapidly growing nor larger growing strain of yellow perch than a good genetic stock of yellow perch (see later). I was told by fish farmers in the Midwest, Zetts will buy fish from them when his supply is sold out. FYI - many fish farms to always have fish available, commonly buy fish from other hatcheries when their stocks are sold out. Thus these perch may not always be the advertised strain.

Technically the european species of yellow perch (Perca fluviatilis) is an exotic species and illegal in the USA. The claim is Seminole perch are larger than the "small Perch that are found in the Great Lakes region". Fact is the strain of yellow perch found in the Great Lakes can easily grow to 15"-16" long. Commercial netters and anglers often catch really large perch from Great Lakes of Erie, Huron and Michigan (northern). I and Cecil Baird ( forum: CB1) have grown the LK Erie strain to these 16" sizes. I regularly catch 14"-15" perch in my pond each winter. There are pictures of perch from northern MI that have gotten to 17-20" long which pretty much puts a lid on the rumor about "small Great Lakes perch". A search for yellow perch on this forum will provide more details.

A larger YP is not necessarily better than smaller perch. When controlling BG one wants heavy predation pressure on the smallest BG to quickly reduce the competition factor before they get larger (2"+) when they eat more and compete more with other similar sized fish. Thus an abundant "crop" or size class of predators 7"-9" long can in the correct habitat and conditions effectively thin out small BG when they are 1/2"-1.2".

Much has been discussed here in past posts about the features of green sunfish and I will not spend time on it here.

If I may add one thing, to help your SMB, YP and WE more effectively control your BG numbers, I would keep submerged aquatic vegetation in your pond very low. Barren would probably be best, but anymore than 10-20% and you're gonna give BG too many hiding spots and make it that much harder for the SMB and others to do their job.

CJBS is correct. BG overabundace in YOUR situation will be directly proportional to amount of submerged vegetation. Keep it to a bare minimum.

TMK:
Cool photos, another member of the Michigan Contingent that I did not know about. Yea for us! These guys give the best advice don't they?

2cat do you want help with this ?

"I subscribe too, but tried and failed at the fish logo. "

OK, I think I have a formula now to mitigate the potential BG over population problem BUT: I have one last question for all the experts (Which I am not).

If I don't want to catch large BG for eating, does it really mater if my pond has a stunted BG population? It does not seem like SMB, YP, WE, or RT, would compete for the same food as BG? The abundance of SMALL BG might be better for SMB and WE? BG don't eat minnows, crayfish, frogs or other forage food that the more desired fish eat. OR, what am I missing here? Is the food chain so messed up that the whole thing collapses?

You have all been very patient with my lake of knowledge on this issue. I just feel like I'd like to understand the full scope of the issue. Thanks a bunch.

Many of the baby predator fish will eat the same thing as baby BG's (up to a certain size), so it might hurt your recruitment of predators.

esshup is correct. 1. A stunted, overpopulation of BG will stiffle and can even eliminate reproduction of the other fish, mostly by the starving BG eating essentially all the eggs or fry of the other fish that are trying to reproduce. 2. Overabundant BG will over eat the plankton food base and thus any other species of fish that does hatch has a very hard time finding enough food to survive and eventually grow. 3. With overabundant BG you will not be able to stock fingerling sized fish of the other species (SMB, YP, WE, or RT) because there will not be enough food for them to survive because too many BG have decimated the invertebrate food base that the other fingerlings rely on for survival. 4. Any newly introduced predator fingerlings also starve because the overabundant BG also pretty much eliminate hatchling BG due to starving BG eat all the BG eggs or fry from other BG nests. Generally the degree of BG overabundance determines how severe the conditions become. It tends to be on an increasing scale. 5. Overabudamt BG also exert other forms of social competitive stressors on similar sized newly stocked fish to a point survival of the new fish is very bleak. I don't think you want a pond with overabundant BG.

Thanks Bill. I like your explanation better!