Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Hello everybody:

First of all, interesting thread we have here. Getting down to the basics of pond management which, as a new pondmeister I find fascinating.

From the start of this thread, I too wondered about the logic behind the idea of a SMB pond being easier to manage than a LMB pond, since from the little research I've done since getting the 'pond bug', I've read the opposite. A LMB/BG pond is supposed to be the easiest to manage.

Thinking a little outside the box here, but what about crappie? In small pond they tend to overpopulate, correct? But with the expected high harvest rates, wouldn't that actually be beneficial to his goals? And a predator can be added to keep them better in check of course. And obviously very good table fare as well. Just throwing that in the mix.

Since Crappie are primarily predators, adding another species towards the top of the food chain would lower the total edible pounds of fish that could be harvested each year IMO.

The problem with crappie is when they overpopulate, you end up with a gazillion crappie about three inches long and thin enough you can almost see through them, in other words far too small and puny to eat. They overload the carrying capacity of the BOW to the extent that they don't grow at all; the only way to get them bigger is to remove the majority of the gazillions from the pond. It would be akin to throwing a can of gasoline on a campfire to make it burn a little hotter.

Walt what are your opinions about this optimization of the food production goal? How is it best accomplished IYO? Any others with some possible ideas that are reading this thread?

Bill/Theo:

I see now (and understand) why you recommend no GSH. Once the pond is stocked, and he starts fishing, should there be an upper slot limit size on the BG to keep some bigger breeders in the pond? (bigger breeders = more eggs per nest) Any slot size limit on LMB?

I was thinking of the LMB/RES pond (stocking rates of RES higher than normal) to minimize the nipping problem that's been reported with BG.

Bill, I would agree with you and others who have observed that Friz probably won't be able to achieve his goals, with a pond that small, without supplemental feeding, or at the very least fertilization (and I know the latter can cause problems with winter kill at that latitude). I also agree that a LMB/BG stocking combination would require less management than others, and would provide more food for the table. If Friz got one of the Texas Hunter feeders that has a 215-lb. capacity of floating fish food, he could conceivably fill it once a month and still feed the fish several times a day during peak periods, and during slower feeding periods he would only have to fill it once every couple months. And of course at his latitude I'm guessing he would only be feeding eight or so months out of the year anyway, so that's five or six instances a year of management work, not a lot by my estimation. I would make both ponds LMB/BG to get the most production; he could put a feeder on one and fertilize one, ceasing the fertilization the first of August so by the time ice arrives the plankton bloom (possibly? I know this would happen in TN but I don't live in IN and haven't seen his pond to know how fertile it is, what the soil is like, etc.) will have dissipated enough to lessen the chance of a winter kill, or just put feeders on both. Beginning the second year, I would keep maybe ten pounds of bass a year, and 100 pounds of bluegill a year, per pond - if feeding or fertilizing, as obviously those numbers would go down greatly without management and the concomitant increased carrying capacity. That comes to 220 pounds of fish per year, which is a lot of fish meals.

Any data on HSB, mosquito fish, and fatheads in an unfed pond?

Just an idea:
You'd have to restock HSB periodically but overall it would seem seem easier to manage since they won't reproduce. Since HSB would be the top predator and have fairly small mouths for their size, smaller/less expensive HSB could be added to replenish those removed. HSB put up a heck of a fight, are easy to clean, and are quite tasty. Fluctuating water levels wouldn't effect the forage fish much either. If growth of the HSB is less than needed, pellets could be an option later.

Walt:

His two ponds are within 25 miles of me, and his soil type is very similar to mine. Some clay, with lots of very yellow sand, minimal organics in the sandy soil. His ponds are dug, groundwater ponds as well, and if like mine, they will see a lot of water flow underground, because they are dug into the water table. There is minimal clay in the area, and it would be too costly to truck enough in to correctly line the pond (s). This past summer, I saw at least two, more likely 3 distinct blooms, each lasting for a couple of weeks in my pond. (renovated, i.e. re-dug 90% of the bottom in summer 2008, went from 7' max to 22' max) I think it might be due to subterraneum water flow in/out of the pond.

My neighbor across the street has a dug, groundwater pond, dug 9-2008, probably 1/3 ac. Rex saw it, maybe he'll chime in on the size as well. My neighbor has 100 HBG 6", maybe a dozen LMB to 12", and 100 CC 14"-16" in the pond. He started aerating late Spring 2009, and once he got rid of the tame ducks he had, his clarity is 30" or so, with a pretty good FA problem. He hand feeds with generic floating catfish food from Tractor Supply by hand 1x day - close to 1 coffee can/day.

Point being, I think without fertilization, I think FRIZ won't be able to sustain a photoplankton bloom thick enough to keep water clarity between the magic numbers, and his fish producing capacity will suffer.

In regards to feeding, here's my experience in my pond.
I'm really not sure of how many BG are in my pond, after an almost 100% fish kill during the winter of 2003/2004, I stocked close to 1,000 6"-9" BG (90% or greater Males) in 2005 (before I knew about PB). Late in the summer of 2005, I found out that I shouldn't have stocked that many, and had friends come over for a serious weekend of fishing. We removed about half of them before winter set in. Now, like I said, keep in mind that those were 90% Males. How many BG are in the pond now? I did stock 100 6"-9" CC Spring of 2009, and there should be maybe 50 16+" CC from the previous year's stocking and 4 CC 25+". The pond is LMB lite, I only stocked a dozen between 14" and 16" in 2006, plus 4 more 12+" pellet trained LMB from Jones in Spring 2009. I have been stocking between 10-15## FHM and 10#-15# GSH 2x year. There is minimal cover in the pond, no weeds, 6 porcupine fish attractors 5' dia and a couple 10"-12" tall fruit trees. I've only removed 2 LMB, 50-80 BG between 7"-9" and as many CC as I could.

I'm saying this because of what I'm seeing when I feed. I have an ADF75, set to throw food for 1 to 3 seconds per feeding, 2 to 3 times a day, depending on the time of the year and water temp. I normally start/stop feeding when water temps are in the mid to low 50's - that's when the fish stop feeding. I've gone thru a total of 200# of AquaMax 500/600 this year feeding the BG/LMB/CC. I will adjust the amount of feed thrown so that there is minimal food floating on the water 15 minutes after the feeder stops throwing the food. I live on the property, and know that the feeder was working the whole feeding season. Am I using less feed due to low BG numbers, the BG having more natural food & are feeding less on the pellets, are they not feeding agressively because they weren't raised on pellets, or ??

I don't want to dilute FRIZ's thread, but I'm sorta trying to tie in my feeding scenario into his pond thread to get a handle on how much he actually would be feeding if he decides to feed. I rarely catch a BG less than 6" (pond record is 11"), and all the LMB that I'm catching are over 100 WR.

Esshup keep at it as it sounds like you are on track. May need to start keeping a few of the CC. With large inflows and outflows it can be very difficult to keep a plankton bloom going.

The feeding amounts I estimated are very much on the high side, the maximum he could expect to feed with very aggressive bluegill that take to the food very well. Bluegill from a hatchery should take to pellet food pretty well, especially if he buys intermediates or larger. I go through a lot of food because most of the BOWs I'm managing at the moment are overpopulated with bluegill so the bluegill really go after the food. But certainly I've seen ponds where the bluegill are less crowded and they don't feed as aggressively, a scenario which would require less food.

So he easily could get through two or even three months or more with 215 lbs. of food and still have very good growth of the fish. I don't doubt that your fish are growing well on 200 lbs. of food for an entire season. I'm just feeding some tightly-packed-in bluegill.

How big is your pond? It could very well be that there's lots of natural food in it for them.

"blooms" ????????????????????????

I still think common carp are the way to go... There is a reason the rest of the world uses them! If you are trying to crank out pounds of fish to eat common carp are it. My dad's best friend who is a complete survivalist the end of the world is coming sort of guy has 4 ponds on his property. He raises common carp in one. There was 14 people living on his "compound" lots of mouths to feed and the carp keep up with the demand.

But if you don't like eating carp, you don't like eating carp... I have to say, when from a clean BOW they are good eating. He also has a LMB/BG pond, a CC/FHM pond and a trout pond.

esshub is correct with his assessment.



I am starting to get confused…

So let me ask a few simple questions:

Can I establish a pond with Largemouth Black Bass/Bluegill Sunfish/ Redear Sunfish? And a second pond with Smallmouth Bass/Golden Shiner/Redear Sunfish?
Can I “occasionally” remove some fish for consumption?
Can the kids go swimming in the ponds?
Will the fish in the ponds make a “small” dent in the mosquito population?
If I do not want to feed or fertilize, will the fish population be self sustained and grow “slowly”?
Tell me more about the “common carp”. Can they thrive in a Smallmouth Bass and/or Largemouth Black Bass pond? Or do they need a designated pond? How many to stock? Where to buy?

Please clarify.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

Friz,

The term "bloom" refers to the presence of microscopic algae in the pond called phytoplankton. When the phytoplankton grow fast and persist, it is called blooming- much like flowers bloom. Afterall, we are talking about plants. Blooms are important becasue they are the base of the food chain. Microscopic animals called zooplankton feed on the blooms, which are then fed on by insects and small fish and then on up on the food chain.

Your goals of wanting significant harvest will be difficult if not impossible to achieve without creating blooms by fertilizing or by using artificial feeds. This isn't to say that you can't have a nice pond, but wihout a significant "base", you won't be able to grow fish quickly nor will you be able to create and sustain the total poundage (biomass) of fish in the pond as you could by being more agressive with fertilizing or feeding.

Your fish can still get big, but it will take longer. You can still sustain a fishery, but your overall numbers will likely be low. You can absolutely occassionally remove fish. I would have no problem swimming in your ponds, but the folks here are right that sunfish will nibble at you, especially if you have moles on your skin!! Trust me! I wouldn't expect too many mosquitoes with the presence of just about any fish species.

It's too bad your ponds aren't in an area with more soil fertility, but it is what it is. The important thing is that you are doing your homework now and there are so many people on this forum willing to give their advice/opinions. It sounds to me like you are going to have an enjoyable pond, but just know without any supplemental management (given your soil fertility) that you are not going to be able to have a fish producing factory. Sounds like you will be O.K. with this. Do know that you can change this scenario with a fertilization/and or feeding program. Things will just be slow otherwise.

Thank you Shawn Banks.
Regards,
FRIZ

How about combining Omaha's & Ryan Freeze's ideas & put in Crappie & HSB with Gams & FH?

Since he is wishing to save $ on the initial stocking IMO all forage should be put in a year in advance of preditors esp. crawfish if SMB is in the mix.



Friz,
There are others here much better at advising on numbers to stock & I defer to them.
I don't think Walleye are needed to help SMB but as a non reproducing & good eating fish they could be added or even substituted for such as HSB offers you've had.
Bill Cody & others are the guys to pay attention to not me. I just like to offer opinions esp. when BC ask for them.

If you have a LMB-BG pond and a SMB-RES pond, swimming will be best in the SMB pond - guaranteed. Plan to use SMB pond for the swimming; esp for the females.
Generally SMB pond will grow fewer fish to eat and they will grow a little slower than fish in the LMB pond. This is because usu. SMB reproduce less and grow slower than LMB. RES in SMB pond also reproduce less than BG resulting in fewer available fish to eat.

Keep in mind that a SMB pond can very easily be converted to a LMB pond just by adding LMB and or BG. But one cannot make a successful thriving SMB pond from a LMB pond without removing all the LMB.

Ponds with small fish (1"-2") rarely have a mosquito problem. Mosquitos are VERY vulnerable to small fish predation. Mosquitos present will come from other wet areas often sometimes miles away.

Basically if you don't fertilize nor feed the fish, the ponds will not grow as many fish, nor will they grow as fast, and often, larger fish will be fewer in numbers. Generally fertilization and Pellet feeding equals more fish and bigger fish; often 2-5 times more fish - depending on circumstances.

Common carp & koi - Cyprinus carpio are imports and exotics in the US from Europe-Germany. They are omnivores eating a wide variety of living and dead plants and animals which allows them to exist on a wide variety of foods. This allows them to always find something to eat, thus always growing. They feed lower on the food chain than panfish and predators. This also allows more of them in terms of pounds of biomass per acre to grow on the natural foods produced by a pond. Carp are essentially bottom feeders eating stuff associated with the bottom sediments - on and in the mud.

They have a sucker like mouth and usually feed by rooting in the sediments for food items -roiling the water as they feed. Ponds with a fair number of carp 20-30/ac are always muddy looking. The more carp the muddier the pond gets due to the constant feeding actviity. Carp do not have stomachs so they cannot binge feed and cannot store food for several days between feedings like bass and panfish. Thus carp and koi need to feed regularly keeping sediments stirred and water mucky.

AS CJBS says carp are pretty good eating when harvested from cleaner, non-polluted waters which is why they were brought into the US from Europe. They are in the minnow family so they have a few more bones compared to bass, catfish and panfish.

Before stocking carp, hybrid striped bass (HSB) or any other fish you have never eaten I HIGHLY suggest you eat one before stocking it.

Ewest, I'm keeping every one that I catch (well 'cept for the 4 biggest ones - I know they were there, because I handled all 4 when the pond was renovated). I caught one of them this Spring on a 5" floating Rapala. It was fun getting the 25" 14.5# CC in on 4# test line! After weighing and measuring, I slipped one of Gregs' numbered floy tags in it. So far I haven't seen it, nor it's 3 other rather largish buddies.

The ones that were stocked Spring 2009 all had the adiopse fin clipped off. I'm trying to get a handle on the growth rates.

FRIZ: Photoplankton blooms. The clarity of the water gets less, and it gets greener, or browner depending on the type of plankton that is growing. Photoplankton are the building blocks that the pond's live inhabitants are grown on. Ideally, I shoot for 18" - 24" readings on a Secchi disk.

Thank you esshup.
Regards,
FRIZ

FRIZ:

Bill Cody said it all. To paraphrase him, the answer to your first 4 questions is YES. Common carp are in all the local lakes and rivers. They'll get to 30+ lbs locally, and can be put in just about any body of water (BOW). Now, once they are in, they are a real pain in the arse to remove without killing the whole pond, and there's no guarantee even then. If you want to try some carp, let me know and I can catch some for you out of Koontz Lake, usually with a day's notice. To me, they're MUCH worse than CC for table fare. I've tried them smoked, and they were still soft. I much prefer Buffalo to Carp. They are fun to catch, but personally, I don't like them for table fare, cooked like you would a LMB, BG or CC. Here's a picture of one that my nephew caught earlier this year:


CJ: I'll let you take it from here on where to buy and what size/how many to stock.

Thank you very much.
Regards,
FRIZ

Some of the commercial fisherman at Lake Erie will take carp they net from the lake, put them in a pond and feed them field corn for 1-3 weeks. Then seine then out and ship them to NY for eager fresh fish buyers. One guy near me in the open water season regularly drives a fish truck from WI to NY hauling fresh carp.

Hi Bill Cody:

A few out-of-the-box questions please:

Would it be feasible to have a Smallmouth Bass/Yellow Perch pond?

In a Smallmouth Bass/Golden Shiner/Redear Sunfish pond, could one drastically increase Redear Sunfish (from 50 to 300)?



Could one have a Redear Sunfish/Yellow Perch pond with just a few Smallmouth Bass?

Please forgive if my questions should be silly.
Regards,
FRIZ

I won't speak for the experts here, but if I could chime in I believe having just a few of the bigger teeth (SMB), you'll end up with too many stunted RES and YP.

EDIT: And FRIZ, don't worry about asking "silly" or "too many" questions. I'm about as new as you are to this and those questions simply don't exist in this forum.