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esshup #196098 12/20/09 01:49 PM
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Fritz,

Given your stated goal of feeding your family and fairly hands-off management, channel catfish might be a good idea for one of your ponds. They probably won't reproduce well, but you could just restock every few years. CC and FHM alone is a fairly common stocking plan, and posters here have mentioned that RES can be added too.

Should you plan to feed fish, hybrid striped bass are another good choice, they'll do well in a pond by themselves if fed.


I do think that you might be overestimating the amount of work that goes into management of LMB. Various members of my family own a handful of ponds in central Texas ranging from .4 to 1 acre in size, and all consistently grew harvestable LMB, CC, and BG for 10 to 25 years with no aeration, little to no feeding, and no stocking after the first year; only ending when a massive drought dried all ponds up. The main goal in managing LMB/BG ponds is in removing LMB to prevent overpopulation, and it sounds as if that hits one of your objectives anyway.

Last edited by txelen; 12/20/09 02:02 PM. Reason: Added LMB section
txelen #196105 12/20/09 04:15 PM
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Is this a great place or what?

esshup #196110 12/20/09 04:41 PM
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Hi esshub:

I think I've bought fish from Jones…
Thank you for the recommendation.

You're aerating, while slightly hands on, is something that you don't have to fiddle with on a weekly, or even monthly basis.
You got that one right.

Feeding with an automatic feeder…
I am not interested.

Stocking one pond with some or all hybrid fish that don't spawn so you have to re-stock on a yearly or bi-yearly basis?
This could be a reluctant “maybe”. What do you have in mind?

How frequently would you be fishing in the pond(s), and what is the frequency of dinners that would be caught from the pond (also, how many mouths to feed)?
I would expect to feed 4-6 people once or twice a week.

Does the family like catfish?
NO!

I am looking forward to your recommendations.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

txelen #196111 12/20/09 04:41 PM
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Hi txelen:

Thank you for your input. Your idea concerning catfish is interesting, however everybody in my family dislikes catfish. Obviously I know very little about pond management. But I am reluctant; it seems that Smallmouth Bass/Redear Sunfish/Golden Shiner are so much easier to manage, especially for a new pond owner.

Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

FRIZ #196114 12/20/09 05:49 PM
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Does Yellow Perch sound appetizing?
SMB & YP do well togeather.


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I find this topic and comments interesting.
Basics: Two one acre ponds. No supplemental feeding. Aerated. Fluctuating water level, NW Indiana.

Goal: How frequently would you be fishing in the pond(s), and what is the frequency of dinners that would be caught from the pond (also, how many mouths to feed)?
I would expect to feed 4-6 people once or twice a week.

Expectation: “seems that Smallmouth Bass/Redear Sunfish/Golden Shiner are so much easier to manage, especially for a new pond owner”. “Everybody in my family dislikes catfish”.

I don’t think this plan will work. Here is why.
First, I considered the amount of fish it will take to feed 6 people just once a week. I used 0.6 lbs of fish per person which is a relatively a small serving of fish X 6 persons, 52 weeks = 187.2 lbs of fillets. I used a dress out weight of medium bass and BG of about 50% that gives a total fish live weight harvest of 374 lbs. 187/bs per acre. (Dress-out-weight of 50% may be a little high for small sizes.)

IMO in an average IN pond, with no supplemental feeding, and with “average” fertility expect a allowable harvest of 25–60 maybe 80 lbs of live weight fish per acre. IMO a SMB-RES pond will produce on the low end of this scale 20-40 lbs of fish /acre.

I am not sure why FRIZ thinks the SMB/RES/GS are “so much easier to manage”. He does not give his reasons or rationale. IMO someone misled him for some unknown reason. I think the SMB-RES-GS pond will require more management and will produce fewer harvestable fish per acre than a LMB-BG pond. Golden shiner (GS) will not contribute directly to edible fish. Historically the LMB-BG fishery is a standard well researched stocking combination that produced and is capable of providing the most harvestable fish with the least amount of management.

Without fertilization or supplemental feeding the amount of self perpuating fish (higher food chain fish/predators) that can be raised and harvested per acre drops significantly, thus what probably appears as low estimates provided above. Annual pond fertility and resulting fish production are dependant on soils of the watershed. The watershed may cause slightly more of less harvestable fish per acre but IMO not significantly different amounts. If others have differing results please provide your experiences.


Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/20/09 08:07 PM.

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 Originally Posted By: Ric Swaim
Does Yellow Perch sound appetizing?
SMB & YP do well togeather.


Hi Ric Swaim
Thank you for your suggestion. So how is this done? Instead of the Golden Shiner I would add Yellow Perch?
How would the stocking plan look for this pond? How many Yellow Perch instead of the 25lb of Golden Shiner?

Spring 2010:
Farm Raised Fathead Minnows (5lb)
Yellow Perch (???)
Redear Sunfish (50)

Fall 2010:
Smallmouth Bass (100)

Will I have to add Walleye to keep the balance in the pond? Or will the Smallmouth Bass handle it by itself?

Please advise.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

FRIZ #196125 12/20/09 08:32 PM
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Yellow Perch fill a different ecological niche than Golden Shiners.

I've never dealt with SMB in a pond, but it seems that your expectations are really high. You'll probably need to compromise somewhere by feeding, taking fewer fish out, using different species, or some combination thereof.

Regarding catfish, is it a flavor issue, or do they just dislike the idea of catfish? I know some people have an aversion to them as "dirty" fish or something. Maybe if they'd just try some fillets, they'll like it?

In my opinion, and take it with a grain of salt because I don't have experience in your climate or with pond culture of SMB/Walleye, your best bet for generating food per acre is to stock LMB, CC, BG, RES, and FHM; feed occasionally if you have an inexpensive source of Aquamax, and take LMB, CC, and some of the BG for eating occasionally after the second year.


Members with experience growing tilapia:

Might a LMB/BG/Tilapia pond be a good choice for this situation? The tilapia would help convert pond biomass away from flora and into edible LMB/Tilapia, but I'm not sure how effective they would be in his climate.

Last edited by txelen; 12/20/09 08:44 PM.
txelen #196128 12/20/09 09:13 PM
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Bill:

Thanks for an experts input. You touched a lot of bases in a short time!

I was hoping that FRIZ liked CC, and there would only be a few mouths to feed.

IMO, I think he'd do better with a traditional LMB/BG stocking due to the high harvest rates. With that high of a harvest rate, I think he'd be better off with fish that have high fecundity.

txelen, I don't think Tilapia would be any benefit, unless they would take some pressure off of the BG recruitment and allow more of them to grow while feeding the LMB. It's too early to tell if he'll have a FA problem.

With those high harvest rates, I don't think he'll have any overpopulation problems!

In keeping with his goals of swimming in the pond, I wonder if a LMB/RES/GSH pond and a LMB/BG pond would be better suited to his goals? Swim in the LMB/RES pond to reduce any nipping by BG? (although I've never had that problem)

Bill: What do you suggest FRIZ stock that would meet his food goal?


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esshup #196133 12/20/09 09:30 PM
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For his present goals I'm not sure what fishery would produce his goals. Probably one that is more herbivore based. BG-RES-YP- bass are all meat eaters and higher on the food chain. At his latitude and without pellet feeding, it will likely take 3 yrs to produce a 7-8" BG and 10-13" bass.
Others with more experience with food production fisheries will have to provide some help here. some sort of Fertilization program may be an option for him since he has a form of "aeration".

esshup- with his goals the LMB RES swimming pond will produce very few harvestable fish compared to LMB-BG-catfish.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/20/09 09:36 PM.

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esshup #196135 12/20/09 09:33 PM
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There are only a very few ways to get that harvest rate and they all involve feeding. The species would be CC , tilapia and possibly HSB. Even with feeding it will be hard to get a LMB/BG pond to produce in those amounts. You would have to run the pond at a very high density with lots of feeding to have a chance for those rates.

Cody agrees with ewest.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/20/09 09:38 PM.















ewest #196146 12/20/09 10:37 PM
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Thank you everybody for your insightful responses.

Are you guys trying to tell me that I want to eat too much fish?
Also, why can’t the kids go swimming if Bluegill Sunfish are in the pond?

Please clarify.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

FRIZ #196149 12/20/09 11:06 PM
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Not that you eat too much fish... Just that 2 ponds totaling 2 acres may not able to to sustain that amount of harvest it would require to keep up with your demands. Particularly if you use SMB/RES...

How about common carp? When raised in clean waters they are actually very good eating IMO. They are fast growing, high fecundity and will meet your demands... The rest of the world uses them for a reason. Us Americans just decided long ago we were too good for them.

As far as bluegills causing an issue in swimming ponds it because they have a tendency to nip at swimmers. It isn't really painful, but more of an annoyance...

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On the topic of carp, one of my top fishing memories of all time was catching a 12" goldfish in a pond at a park near my house when I was 5-6 years old. People would dump their unwanted pet fish into it, I guess that's how it got there.

That fish sure seemed big at the time.


Ponds in TX, lake place in WI, me in CA
txelen #196153 12/21/09 01:12 AM
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Just a thought. FRIZ, are those 6 people all adults, or are there smaller kids in the mix? If there were, then Bills #'s might be on the high side for now, but they'll change as the kids get bigger. I'm not talking about teenagers, I think they eat more than adults! It's not that you want to eat too many fish, it's just a wee bit too much for the size of the water to grow them in without more of a "hands-on" approach.


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esshup #196154 12/21/09 01:27 AM
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 Originally Posted By: esshup
Just a thought. FRIZ, are those 6 people all adults, or are there smaller kids in the mix? If there were, then Bills #'s might be on the high side for now, but they'll change as the kids get bigger. I'm not talking about teenagers, I think they eat more than adults!


Also, there will probably be several weeks or months where fish will not be taken due to ice, spawning, or people simply being tired of eating fish.


Ponds in TX, lake place in WI, me in CA
txelen #196155 12/21/09 06:02 AM
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Looks like all the guys with the knowledge are chiming in. I will just chime in to say hi. \:\)


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Comment of: "Also, there will probably be several weeks or months where fish will not be taken due to ice, spawning, or people simply being tired of eating fish."
Just becasue one does not or is not able to fish due to reasons stated and numerous other reasons does not mean that fish can not be eaten once a week or twice a week. Fish do freeze well and if done properly can be caught, cleaned, frozen and eaten at a much later date. Many anglers stock up on fish while the catching is available or good. Then later they enjoy regular meals of fish.

Two good methods of freezing fresh fish are the new home variety of vacuum sealing/packaging devices or freezing fish pieces immersed in water in plastic freezer bags. With these methods fish will not freezer burn, will not develop off flavors from freezer odors and will stay in great condition for several years if kept frozen.

ALSO back to another topic Friz stated: ""it seems that Smallmouth Bass/Redear Sunfish/Golden Shiner are so much easier to manage, especially for a new pond owner."" Can someone explain the rationale of this statement?. Is there any truth to this or is it a myth or just the sales pitch of a fish salesman pushing RES, SMB, & GS? This could be a whole new topic.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/21/09 10:46 AM.

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Bill:

You mentioning freezing fish in water brings back memories. My grandmother would de-scale, behead and gut panfish, put them in a 1/2 gallon milk carton (remember those) and freeze them. Since my grandfather passed away when I was a little kid, I was tasked with catching fish for her every weekend. We'd bring them back to her in 1/2 gallon or 1 gallon milk cartons. The lake house was 1 1/2 to 2 hr from home.


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esshup #196169 12/21/09 11:02 AM
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I freeze fillets in ziplock bags with water (and as little air as possible) every year. They taste fine several months later and are very hard to tell apart from fresh when I am cooking a mix of the two types.


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Alright:

So I will have to cut down on the expected consumption of fish for the family. And if I decide to take your recommendation and dedicate one pond to Largemouth Black Bass & Bluegill Sunfish, would the following stocking plan be appropriate?

Spring 2010:

Bluegill Sunfish
2-4" (150)
4-6" (100)
6-8" (50)
Redear Sunfish
2-4" (25)
4-6" (25)

Fall 2010:

Largemouth Black Bass
3-4" (40)
5-7" (35)
8-10" (25)

Would this Largemouth Black Bass & Bluegill Sunfish pond conform to my goals?
Could I start fishing in the summer of 2011 or would I have to wait till 2012?

 Originally Posted By: FRIZ

My goal with these ponds is the following:

Swimming for the kids
Providing dinner for the family
Making a dent in the mosquito population

I am not interested in:

Hands-on pond management
Trophy fish
Catch & release


Please advise.
Thanks & regards,
FRIZ

FRIZ #196189 12/21/09 03:49 PM
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Too many large bass too soon, IMO. You need forage for them when they are put in; a 10" LMB will be looking for 3" BG/RES to eat, and he closest to what he wants may easily be the smaller initial sunfish stockers.

I would definitely add about 10 lbs of FHM to the spring stocking, to multiply small fish quickly and provide initial forage for the LMB.

Also, that's a 3.5:1 bream:bass ratio, which is OK IMHO if you want to be bass heavy and concentrate on fewer, larger BG/RES.

P.S. Does the family like fried potatoes? They go great with fish and will extend you fish supply while filling everyone up.


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Theo:

I know that there is a possibility of GSH competing with the YOY BG, but what do you think of adding 5# of 3" or so GSH to each pond to help take some predation pressure off of the BG?

FRIZ; FWIW, it takes 10# of food (i.e. forage fish) to put one # of weight on each LMB.

I know it goes against his hands-off management goal, but feeding the fish would help his other goals a bunch!


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esshup #196213 12/21/09 06:27 PM
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For food production management, I personally wouldn't put GSH in.


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I tend to agree with Theo. Friz doesn't seem to be interested in growing larger bass (16+") thus shiners are not needed or IMO useful. Shiners will consume food items, contribute biomass and are not edible as panfish/food source. IMO Friz should stick with edible fish to more fully and more efficiently utilize the pond's productivity. HIs ponds are remote and feeding is not a desired option for him. He will have constant problems with interlopers, even with watchful neighbors, once the fishery becomes attractive. Many here know how very hard it is to keep free loader anglers out of their ponds.

Initial stocking, I would omit the 8"-10" LMB and use the money to buy more smaller BG and maybe 50-200 papershell crayfish. He will definately be eating more BG than bass. Use NO pond dye, that will suppress fish production. After several years I thnk Friz will get a real education as to how many fish (BG-LMB) can be harvested annually from a one acre pond with out fertilization and supplimental feeding. Ponds are not limitless as many people mistakenly think.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/21/09 09:02 PM.

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