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#192073 - 11/13/09 07:03 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
Well talked to Pond Doctors today, super people. Gonna start with db-110.They say its 25% more effective than db-100. Should be here wenesday....wish me luck!

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#192081 - 11/13/09 07:27 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
Updates required. Keep us in the loop. I have one sandy side that needs attention.
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#192084 - 11/13/09 07:48 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: burgermeister]
FarmerRick Offline

Lunker

Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Cherokee county, Alabama
Beespring, did they say it is safe for fish? Is the coverage rate the same as db100? I wonder how PD's assigns the quantity of 25% more effective? Good luck and please update us along the way.
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#192085 - 11/13/09 07:56 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: FarmerRick]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
They said db-110 is safe for fish, but the db-200 granular which is for dry areas only,and if it gets in water would possibly produce fish kill. Thats why I'm going with the liquid only. They said the 25% more tag goes to better sealing properties than before

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#192094 - 11/13/09 11:28 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
belkins456 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Warren Co, Kentucky
BeespringKY i'm very interested in this DB110 as well as i've been awaiting the release for some time. Since I don't have any fish in my pond yet i'm thinking of just going with the DB200 if it has better sealing capabilites. PM me a message and i'll give you my phone number if there is anything I can do for you.

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#192104 - 11/14/09 06:28 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: belkins456]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
They said db-200 would turn water a little creamy which is why it may be hard on fish..but it too is non-toxic

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#192158 - 11/14/09 06:42 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
belkins456 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Warren Co, Kentucky
DB-100 did the same thing to my water. I have bottom aerators running as well as a floating fountain and with all the agitation it made the top of my pond white and foamy for a few days. The water actually looked and kind of felt "thick" when you stirred it. I would imagine it probably does stress the fish out a bit when you put a large amount in the water at a time. But like I said I have no fish in my pond yet so I'm willing to try the DB200.

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#192164 - 11/14/09 07:37 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: belkins456]
ga pond rookie Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 94
Loc: milledgeville, georgia
questions regarding updates on db100 and db200. my pond since the end of aug and heavy rains has filled and wet weather spring keeps it pretty full---the water going in right now has just enough going out of the siphon pipe to keep it from going over the runaround on the end of the dam--that's as good as it gets for me-- i will see what happens next summer when spring stops and water falls---if it falls 6ft or more then i will go back to my plan to try and recore part of the dam and apply db200/bentonite to area between new core and clay lined bottom.
rick/belkins/adirondak/anyone else using db products --update your success if you will --if you had it to start over would you still use those products?? --it seems not to be too good from my reading of this thread. otto--sorry i got rained on too hard to try my fix this year. thanks

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#192469 - 11/17/09 08:59 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: ga pond rookie]
adirondack pond Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3135
Loc: big moose ny
My experience with DB-100 was that it did slow down the leak in my dam but did not stop it to my satisfaction, even though I used a tarp barrier to concentrate the product only along the dam.
It probably works best sealing a pond with seeps, but cannot seal larger leaks, that needs an excavator and more money.
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#192472 - 11/17/09 09:12 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: adirondack pond]
FarmerRick Offline

Lunker

Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Cherokee county, Alabama
And in my case i believe ,(though not as much as my deputy pond monitor,) that it slowed my leak down, but has not fixed it. We did 2 applications of 6 gallons on a 1 acre bow about 42 days apart. If this Fall had been like last Fall i would be more able to tell for sure, but we have had some big rains including Ida over our pond in NE Alabama.

I may commit some more money to the DB line, such as DB110, next summer if i still feel this year's efforts had had an effect. If i do, i am going to make a concerted effort to have a large amount organic material suspended in the water the day it is applied. I think i can get saw dust by the truck load and i may get several truck loads and dump it in a few days to a week before the application of the DB110. If any one else has tried the sawdust or other material, please post about it. Any other ideas for an affordable material are appreciated.

It sure is nice to see the pond with so much water after such a low level in August and July.
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#192536 - 11/17/09 07:32 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: FarmerRick]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
I'm going to apply my DB110 this weekend. Plan on taking bales of hay and straw, which I have on hand is the only reason, and mowing them up and then throwing the clippings in the pond. I just hope this stuff works.


Edited by BeeSpringKy (11/17/09 07:33 PM)

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#192566 - 11/17/09 11:23 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
cheezy1963 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 209
Loc: oklahoma
In my case the DB-100 didn't fix my problem after 3 applications.

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#192583 - 11/18/09 06:04 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: cheezy1963]
Dave Davidson1 Online   content
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13739
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
Sounds like another magic bullet may have bitten the dust. Darn!
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It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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#192671 - 11/18/09 08:04 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: Dave Davidson1]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
Adirondack.. on a post earlier you stated it stopped your leak 70%.I would be ecstatic with that.

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#192678 - 11/18/09 09:23 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
adirondack pond Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3135
Loc: big moose ny
Bee, my dam seeps, and leaks, the seeps stopped but the one area that has a larger leak didn't stop, that's why I think it can help only on seepage. Maybe the new product or adding certain organic material with it will yield better results.
I have gravity flow pipes supplying 95GPM, but they freeze up when it gets below zero, so this year I put a submersible pump below the dam to return leaking water to the pond. Since the hose is only 40ft. and heavily insulated I'm hoping this keeps the pond level ok for the winter.
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#192703 - 11/19/09 07:47 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: adirondack pond]
otto Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/02/04
Posts: 1074
Loc: texas
Dave
It is always good to hear something that helpd with the leaking lake-- so far there has not been a magic fix--

Lets keep trying and posting. The info will only help.

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#192709 - 11/19/09 09:39 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: otto]
FarmerRick Offline

Lunker

Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Cherokee county, Alabama
So true Otto.

I still believe that it will help if the DB recipe includes something to bind to. It is so slimy and clingy. I can just imagine it causing a slimy clingy mass and that being sucked into the leak (if we are fortunate) and slowing or stopping the leak.

So to me the way to get that to have a better chance of happening is to have matter in with in suspnsion to bind with the DB.

I would like to talk to one of the Biller's as i am wondering if the concentration is correct at 6 gallon per acre. There has been no mention of the depth of that acre that I have seen.

Those of you who have applied it know it is not a piece of cake. Clearly it is the "hope syndrome" that has inspired us to get er done. If there is more hope that can be had legitimately, lets have it.
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#192715 - 11/19/09 10:03 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: FarmerRick]
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19746
Loc: Miss.
Check into drilling mud (was called aqua gel)used in drilling oil wells. Major ingredient is bentonite. It is designed to do 2 basic things. One to lubricate the hole as drilled and flush cuttings to the surface and second to seal the hole to prevent the escape of fluids into the surrounding formations. We have used it successfully before but your situation may be different. In our cases the mixed product move toward the leak and bonded to seal the pore spaces in the sand.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=127658&fpart=1

Here is the stuff from prior threads - its called sorting.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post125536



http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post78440

We need to get George and DIED in on this as they can explain permeability and porosity of soils and rocks.

Porosity is indirectly related to hydraulic conductivity; for two similar sandy aquifers, the one with a higher porosity will typically have a higher hydraulic conductivity (more open area for the flow of water), but there are many complications to this relationship. Clays, which typically have very low hydraulic conductivity also have very high porosities (due to the structured nature of clay minerals), which means clays can hold a large volume of water per volume of bulk material, but they do not release water very quickly.

Sorting and porosity

Effects of sorting on alluvial porosity
Well sorted (grains of approximately all one size) materials have higher porosity than similarly sized poorly sorted materials (where smaller particles fill the gaps between larger particles). The graphic illustrates how some smaller grains can effectively fill the pores (where all water flow takes place), drastically reducing porosity and hydraulic conductivity, while only being a small fraction of the total volume of the material.


In the earth sciences, permeability (commonly symbolized as κ, or k) is a measure of the ability of a material (typically, a rock or unconsolidated material) to transmit fluids. It is of great importance in determining the flow characteristics of hydrocarbons in oil and gas reservoirs, and of groundwater in aquifers.

The intrinsic permeability of any porous material is:

κI = C X d2

where

κI is the intrinsic permeability [L2]
C is a dimensionless constant that is related to the configuration of the flow-paths
d is the average, or effective pore diameter [L]


] Yes many rocks(not talking about gravel or broken or fractured ones but solid rock layers) can have fluids run through them under pressure. Also clay when dry absorbs water and expands until water will no longer be absorbed and it creates a seal subject to pressure. Porosity is the space between grains of soil or rock and fluid will flow through them limited by force needed to get the fluid through the pore space.

Now George or DIED can fix what I poorly explained.

*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
DIED

thanks for calling out for the geo's ewest, but you did a fine job. an unintuitive physical property of clays is their high porosity and capacity to store water...well put....yet at the same time, their extremely low permeability limits the movement of that water....hydraulic conductivity (K) is basically the rate or speed at which water (or any fluid) can move through a particular media. Bill is correct in that all soils leak, its just a matter of how fast.

I apologize if I offend anyone with the following simple science, but it helps me to put things in terms that even my mosquito fish can understand. ewest hit all the important points about stuff moving through other stuff....in relation to permeability, porosity, conductivity, tortuosity (the flow paths), but for me all other things being equal, and envisioning leaky ponds i think primarily about how fast the water moves through whatever type of soil. So here are some example ranges of K (hydraulic conductivity) for different soil types just for comparisons sake......K is also given in metric units (i.e. cm/s or m/s) but my mind still thinks in inches and feet so I use gallons per day per square foot………..

Gravel : 10E4 to 10E6 gallons/day/ft2 (10E4 is scientific notation for 10 to the 4th power which is 10x10x10x10 = 10,000 - which means between 10,000 to over 1,000,000 gallons of water can pass through a square foot of gravel in one day!!)

Silty Sand to Clean Sand : 1 - 10E3 gal/day/ft2 (10E3 = 1000 gallons = gushing pond leakage)

Silts : 10E-2 to 1 gal/day/ft2 (which means 0.01 to 1 gallon of water can pass through a square foot of pure silt in one day, if multiplied by square footage of pond = very leaky pond…..you can see where we’re headed for clay….)

Clay : 10E-4 to10E-6 gal/day/ft2 (which means 0.0001 to 0.000001 gallons of water through the square foot of clay which equates to a leaky pond only on geologic time, this is a good tight pond seal).

this thread is a classic for leaky ponds containing many great insights, speculations, and statements above (theo, bill, brettski, eddie, ML...all yous guys), but IMHO to really help DonB we need to hear back from him about his construction techniques to help determine whether its just absorption into new pond lining or an actual seep. Hope the explanation on conductivity helps a few of you lurking get a feeling for why clay works so good.

My personal situation prior to renovation was hydraulic driven seepage through bedrock on pond side of dam, with water daylighting in creek below dam. In brief, this was mostly remedied by a lot of digging, cleaning, grooming and installing a well compacted mixed native and imported clay liner within deepest areas of pond subject to the greatest hydraulic pressure.
_________________________
********************************************************************
I think you have described sorting. Different types of dirt have different grain sizes. When they are mixed and wet they exhibit sorting. I should have taken time to post the pic with the first post.

Well sorted (grains of approximately all one size) materials have higher porosity than similarly sized poorly sorted materials (where smaller particles fill the gaps between larger particles). The graphic illustrates how some smaller grains can effectively fill the pores (where all water flow takes place), drastically reducing porosity and hydraulic conductivity, while only being a small fraction of the total volume of the material.






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porosity


When dry clay is mixed with other dirt the aggregate has grains of different sizes. Water flows through the pore spaces between the grains not the dirt. When the mixture gets wet the grain size of the clay increases (swells as it absorbs water)reducing the pore space volume and the smaller other dirt grains sort to clog the remaining pore spaces to form a seal. Compaction helps because it binds the grains and reduces the pore spaces.

The water in a new/renovated pond may look like it is leaking for a while as its clay/soil mix absorbs water reducing pore space and goes through sorting and sealing. Once that process finishes it should be sealed and not lose water except through evaporation (unless there is a real leak ).
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#192989 - 11/20/09 05:36 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: ewest]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
Going to put DB110 on tomorrow..but forecast calls for little or no rain next week, so may be a while before I can attest to effectiveness.Got fingers and toes crossed!

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#192994 - 11/20/09 07:23 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
adirondack pond Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3135
Loc: big moose ny
Good luck Bee, hope it works for you.
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#193023 - 11/21/09 10:43 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: adirondack pond]
FarmerRick Offline

Lunker

Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 177
Loc: Cherokee county, Alabama
Yes, Good luck Bee. Dont be like me and get the stuff on your hands and then need to hold something. I was afraid if i fell in, I would not be able to crawl pull myself out, as near the end of the application,i had it all over myself. Please report back with your results.
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#193050 - 11/21/09 04:03 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: FarmerRick]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
Well Just finished. Miracle Gro sprayer would not work! It wouldn't even attempt to come out. So I did like directions said and mixed 1oz to 5 gallon bucket of water. I poured this around the entire perimeter of pond. Probably around a hundred or so buckets...took 4 hours.I will not be able to get out of the bed in morning! So far fish are fine...hope they stay that way.Stuff is very slimy Farmer Rick, had trouble even holding garden hose.No rain in forecast any time soon, so will have to wait and see...Thanks for the well wishes!

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#193066 - 11/21/09 06:28 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
belkins456 Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 76
Loc: Warren Co, Kentucky
Beespringky- Why didn't the Miracle gro sprayer work? I sprayed 12 gallons and had no problems with mine. You just have to turn it upside down occasionally go keep the sprayer unclogged. I hope you didnt try to use the green fan spray tip that comes with it. That will clog! You have to make a custom spray nozzle on end of miracle grow feeder. Good luck with your leak. I'm about to break down and try some db-200 as one last attempt to get my pond full.

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#193075 - 11/21/09 07:32 PM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: belkins456]
BeeSpringKy Offline
Lunker

Registered: 07/26/09
Posts: 23
Loc: kentucky
I took the front all the way off and it still wouldn't come out at all.If I turned it upside down the db would come out like silly string. Maybe the db110 is thicker?

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#193101 - 11/22/09 08:26 AM Re: Pond holding water...success notes [Re: BeeSpringKy]
lassig Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 941
Loc: Schuyler Co, IL
Has anyone used the db100 or db110 with a siphon system? Wondering if after multiple applications if it would clog the trash guard? I hoping I don't need to go this route and my pond seals and fills up, but if I do I just trying to plan ahead.
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