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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Fifteen days ago we were informed that our entire property will be taken for a new three-quarter million volt power line ( PATH). There really isn't an alternative. We already have a half-million volt line the length of our western property boundary. It goes over the pond. If they don't take our property, they would take the adjacent property to the east of us, which would sandwich us between the two major power lines. It would devastate the value of our property. We don't know how to value much of what we have. If I just start with the pond -- how do we value the fish? Yesterday was our second meeting, but our first "walk-about" with their negotiator. I brought a can of fish pellets down to the pond. Not a single fish came up for a nibble when I threw the food in. It was like having an empty pond. If our fish were prize dogs, cats, or even cattle, I'd have a place to start. I figure I'm only about 3/4 inches away from a state record for bluegill. I have many hundreds of hours restoring and balancing this old pond. Our 25 acres has three additional sites for ponds. We have the right soil, water, and topography. After PB-III, and listening to Dave Sefton and Mike Otto, Lynda was convinced that we should start at least one new pond in the springtime. Finding the right replacement land won't be easy. Just in the last two years we've added over a $100,000 in improvements. We are very worried about the fair market value right now due to the economy. We fear that an appraisal could be more than $250,000 under what we have invested. The last time it was appraised, it was about $200,000 under. My 2000 sq. ft. workshop, which is drywalled, heated, and has full electric, was valued as an "outbuilding" with "No Commercial Value (NCV)". The project is currently tied up in the courts of West Virginia, Virginia, and Maryland, and probably will not be settled until at least January 2011. They want an option-to-purchase now. It puts our lives on hold for that time. We've been planning on retirement in about three years. All of our improvements have been towards retirement -- even our simple improvements like fruit trees, berries, asparagus, etc. These, and thousands of flower bulbs, will just be lost. I know a few Pond Bosses have lost their properties to similar projects in recent years. I'd sure like to hear from anybody with this experience. Any insight and advice would be greatly appreciated. Ken and Lynda
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Dec 2006
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Ken,I am so sorry to hear this.You have my deepest sympathy.Perhaps you should try a tact other than apprasial value,maybe replacment instead.
I subscribe Some days you get the dog,and some days he gets you.Every dog has his day,and sometimes he has two!
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Moderator Lunker
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Moderator Lunker
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First, I am sorry to hear this, Ken.
Second, a pond load of big fish could be quite valuable. If I were you, I would strongly consider getting professional evaluations of everything valuable on the property to ensure you get fair compensation for all of it. It might be worth a professional electrofish sampling to put a dollar value on the fish in the pond; certainly worth talking with a pro like Grimes, Lusk, etc. and telling what you know of the size and numbers of fish in the pond, getting a very rough estimate of their value, and making the decision whether or not to electrofish and get a hard dollar value to use for compensation purposes.
We got a professional, retroactive evaluation of what the timber value on our property had been at the time of acquisition when we had our place logged a few years ago. The result was quite valuable from a tax perspective, and if the IRS will follow a forester's professional estimate, you should be able to get as much value out of a professional fish squeezer's evaluation on your fish value.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 57
Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 57 |
Sorry to hear about your situation. Like some others on this site, I am an attorney and have some familiarity with this situation. What I suggest is getting individual valuations for your improvements (e.g., the pond, outbuilding, etc.). Then, hire an appraiser for the entire property that will defer to (or at least give consideration to) those individual improvement valuations. Many times, appraisers are willing to put in their appraisal that they relied on a valuation by a "specialist" in the particular asset. Usually, the utility company in your situation is willing to tolerate some "over-pricing" in the appraisal for the certainty of being able to acquire a needed property. .
I subscribe!
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ken, Run do not walk to an attorney. I say this not because you need to engage in a drawn out legal battle but because you need strong legal council on your side. Find a firm that specializes in this area of law (real estate and most importantly eminent domain law).
I had a rental property taken by the California Department of Transportation through eminent domain. The bad news, it was a very trying time, it was an emotional roller coaster, and in the end I had to give up the property (in my battle I knew that would ultimately be the end result). The goods news is that when the dust settled we received about 10% above what the current market value of the property was, there were absolutely no selling expenses borne by me, they paid all of the escrow costs and we had a check literally one week after the deal was signed. The deal literally became: Agreed upon price minus outstanding mortgage = check to JHAP.
I am sorry to hear this is happening to you Ken. The brutal truth is that you are in for a rough ride but hopefully it will lead you on to a path you were meant to follow, and hopefully you will get a fair price for your property.
+1 on the specialist appraisal. It's difficult to refute a specialist.
Please, please contact a good attorney.
Also have your CPA review the rules for a "Section 1033 Exchange." (please note I referenced code section 1033 not 1031).
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Nov 2005
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Sorry to hear about this happening to you and what you will be going through.
A good friend of mine had his place taken by eminent domain in CA to expand the size and access of a park. It had been an ongoing process where the bought out neighboring property owners until he was the only one left. He refused to sell, so they started harrassing him and tried to shut down his easments. He won every battle, but they only have to win one time.
When they took the land, they offered ten grand an acre. That was more then he paid for it, but land down the canyon from him had just sold for $100,000 an acre. That was a very good comp, but because he was surround by park land and required an easement to access his land, they said the comp wasn't any good. He hired a lawyer who had allot of experience in this and in the end, got $30,000 an acre.
All that matters is that you get as much as possible so you can go into the hunt for a replacement property with the funds to by what you want. The economy is going to get worse, so the longer you hold out on the appraisal value, the less your land will be worth. That's just my opinion, but unless there's a big improvement in the job numbers, nobody is going to have the money to buy and as a result, property values will continue to drop. The good news is that after you sell, you will be in a strong buying position!!!!
When hiring a lawyer, be sure to talk to at least five. The biggest mistake people make when hiring anybody is to hire the first or second one they talk to. Make it a point to have a list of names before you talk to any of them. Then promise yourself that you will not hire any of them until you have talked to all of them. Some are very good salesman, others are very likable and make you feel like a friend. What you want is one that's good at what he does, and is better then all the others. He/She may or may not be a nice person, but if they get results, that's all that matters.
Good luck, Eddie
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Wow Ken I'm really sorry to hear this. I've often wondered if this could happen to me as I'm close to a state highway, and if they wanted to widen it, if they choose to do so on my side the pond will have to go. It would be easier to do so on the opposite side which is a farm but who knows how these people think. We're supposed to live in a free country. Sometimes I just don't know about that. I hope it all works out for you, and could even be a blessing in the end if with this being a buyer's market you could find a dream property at a steal. Buy one of those closed trout farms with a pond already on it! Or a property that has an artesian well where you could have trout year around along with your other warmer water species. Flow water from the trout pond into another pond that is bigger and stays warmer which is what I used to do.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/21/09 11:33 AM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Administrator Lunker
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Administrator Lunker
Joined: Dec 2004
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I can't imagine the mental process one would go through to deal with a shock and awe event such as this. Anger, fear, sadness, a lot like losing your best friend.
I have nothing profound to say, but all the advice given so far sounds like good advice to me.
Thanks for sharing this with us and be assured that you are in our thoughts and prayers.
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Ambassador Lunker
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Ambassador Lunker
Joined: Apr 2006
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hi ken, i can only offer what dwight said so well. oh and p.s. if you ever get to sacramento again, please pm me, i'm only an hour or maybe a little less from downtown and would be honored to have you visit.
GSF are people too!
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Ambassador Lunker
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Ambassador Lunker
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Ken I can't add anything to the good advice given here, but I hope you and your wife come out of this bad situation with positive results, Good Luck.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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KEn:
I'm at a loss for words. I really can't imagine working hard for so long then have this cloud hanging over your head. I agree, consult a bunch of attorney's ASAP. Be pro-active rather than reactive. Get everything valued, even the orchard. What would it cost to replace those trees today at the size that they are, etc.
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Ambassador Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Hi Ken, so sorry to hear this news. You've gotten some good advise so far. In previous real estate dealings, when I have needed some help in evaluation of a properties' value, I have used an "expert witness". These individuals are well respected in their field of expertise and very helpful. Of course they do cost money, but they are worth it, because they are on your side, and being paid by you. Quite often the other side will do the same thing, so it might be best to get an attorney and let him get the best "expert" on your side before your opposition does. Best of luck, Randy
Just do it...
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Ken the posts above have good advice. There are ways to fight ED but they are usually not successful except as to getting the value up. Let me know if you want to talk.
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Moderator Lunker
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Moderator Lunker
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Ken, good advice given above. Try to get your head straight and think of those times when you have said "If I had it all to do over....".
Best of luck Buddy.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Editor, Pond Boss Magazine Lunker
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Editor, Pond Boss Magazine Lunker
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Ken, let's talk. I can help.
Teach a man to grow fish... He can teach to catch fish...
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 343
Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Feb 2007
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It's a shame when this happens. I can't imagine if someone told me I had to move like it or not. This happened to my uncle about 15 years ago when they turned the 2 lane in front of his house into a 4 lane. He built a new home about 75 yards behind where the old one stood that the state demolished. The state has recently proposed building a new connecting highway to the 4 lane and it may happen to him again!
I hope things work out for you Ken.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
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Joined: Jun 2007
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Lunker
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Lunker
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Ken, I believe I know you well enough to know that you will close this chapter of your life with a positive attitude and move on. More doors of opportuity will open than you can ever imagine.
Sometimes life kicks us in the butt, but we would never achieve the wondeful blessings of life without a painful nudge now and then. Good luck and God Bless.
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Thanks all. George, you are absolutely right. Although this is like a tremendous kick in the butt, Lynda and I usually do look at these things with optimism. We've done a lot of crazy things together in the last 34 years, and we're still enjoying it.
We feel extremely fortunate to have so many good friends, here at Pond Boss, and in the local community. The community went to work within minutes of us announcing this after church two weeks ago. We feel we'll end up with a great new home. Besides the people, one of the wonderful things about this area is the abundance of springs and artesian wells. The land is mostly clay, so it doesn't perc very well. What more could a pond meister ask for?
Fighting this has never been an option in our minds. Through all of our convoluted friendships, it looks like things are already coming together legally, financially, etc. Even as Theo mentioned, we need to look at the timber. We've got lots of very high quality 90 year-old oak and hickory on the property.
We just know we've got a lot ahead of us. We'll keep you all informed of progress.
Ken and Lynda
P.S. D.I.E.D -- On my recent trip to Sacramento they had us captive on the Delta King in Old Sacramento. We had meetings from 7:00 AM to 10:00 PM. It appears that I'm going to be transferred, for reporting purposes, to a new boss in Sacramento as of January 1. So, I'll probably be making lots of trips. I already know I'll be there January 13 through the 15th.
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Ken the assertive threat of fighting this should help get the price up. I know of one case here where the state wanted to pay based on farm value plus a little and the landowner wanted subdivision development value. The landowner was successful and got about 3 times what the state had offered.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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So sorry to hear about this Ken.
Sounds like you've gotten your head around this thing.
Is it Dominion's line?
Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:" "She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ken the assertive threat of fighting this should help get the price up. I know of one case here where the state wanted to pay based on farm value plus a little and the landowner wanted subdivision development value. The landowner was successful and got about 3 times what the state had offered. Eric -- That is kind of where we are headed. We are the only significant place they have to buy out over several miles. All the rest are just easements through forest or pastures. Sunil -- The line that already goes through our property is Dominion. This is how they define the new line: The Potomac-Appalachian Transmission Highline (PATH) is a joint venture of American Electric Power (AEP) and Allegheny Energy to build a new high-voltage interstate transmission line. At the same time, there is another power line going through real close to us. It is by Allegheny power, and known as the Trans-Allegheny Interstate Line (TrAIL). It is a lot more controversial, especially since one of the farms they are trying to cross is Robert Duvall's. He has been one of the leading opponents. I just don't have quite as much money or clout as he does. Ken
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Lunker
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Lunker
Joined: Feb 2009
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Wow, I'm so sorry that you're going through this. It has to be so hard to lose a property that you've put so much time, money, and energy into with the thought that your family could enjoy the fruits of your labor for generations to come. It's great that you're keeping a positive attitude. I recommend that you check out the Castle Coalition, an organization that works to fight eminent domain abuse. Check out their website, particularly the "Survival Guide" part. http://www.castlecoalition.org/It sounds like you're resigned to losing your property and just working to get fair compensation for it. Even though the Castle Coalition focuses more on helping people fight to keep their property, they most likely have the right resources and connections to help you fight for a fair valuation as well. Good luck, and keep your head up!
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Moderator Lunker
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It is a lot more controversial, especially since one of the farms they are trying to cross is Robert Duvall's. He has been one of the leading opponents. I just don't have quite as much money or clout as he does. You DO have more hair!
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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Ambassador Lunker
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Ambassador Lunker
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before yer next trip, feel free to pm me ken, it would be fun to work out a visit if you can escape for a bit. late winter and early spring is by far the prettiest time of year to see the foothills..
GSF are people too!
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Lunker
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Lunker
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Ken,
I am not sure about WV but the fight is on in Loudon County, VA and MD to stop this PATH power line. There was some reason for optimism reported in the Post this weekend. There are some very powerful forces fighting the terminus of the line in Kemptown, MD. We were able to prevail earlier this year and stop a similar line from crossing through some of the most scenic countryside in VA.
I don't know if WV will OK the line if it's terminus in MD is defeated or the route is denied by the State Corp. Commission here in VA. WV is a stooge for natural resource companies but maybe if we can defeat the line here it will become a mute point.
In any event, fight hard for your rights and hope for the best. Your situation is tragic. My condolences to you and your wife.
Montani semper liberi Mountaineers are always free
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