Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site new 1/10 acre trout pond

Hello, I am a newbie in SW Michigan near Grand Rapids and I am planning a new 1/10 acre trout pond. After many months of research and trying to convince my wife that we need a pond, I finally got the ok to begin construction.

My wish list for the pond is (in order of preference)

1. I would love to fish for rainbow/brown trout in the pond.
2. I would also like some LMB and/or Perch as Bonus fish
3. I would like to be able to swim in a portion of the pond

I had a front loader tractor for a few hours and I scraped off the top soil and hit clay right away. My question is should I try to dig out the pond with the front loader or should I bring in an excavator? If I use an excavator do I need to do something to compact the clay?

Also, how should I structure the bottom of the pond and how deep should I dig it? I was thinking of keeping 5’ of shallow water for FH minnows to spawn and then going deep to 15’ quickly from there in the fish only section. Then in the swimming section have it drop off more evenly.

I am hoping to keep temperatures cold enough for trout by digging to 15’ and then using a diffuser for aeration. I was hoping to stock it the first summer with FH and maybe a predator or two and monitor the temps through the summer to see if I need to devise additional cooling strategies. http://www.weathershop.com/temptrax.htm offers probes and computer tracking software that I may pick up to help with the monitoring.

You have some pretty lofty goals. I am not sure that you will be able to accomplish all your goals in a 1/10 acre pond.

A 0.1 ac pond 15 ft deep will I think have to have practically vertical sides. You may have trouble keeping the sides from caving in at slopes greater than 2:1. I don't think this can be properly done with a front end loader. You better get a quote from a reputaable pond builder to get some idea of what is involved in building a pond with your specifications.

With trout, bsss and perch don't expect to keep a breeding population of fatheads in this pond. One or a few predators during the 1st summer will complicate normal trout stocking.

Bender, I have a pond generally the size your looking at and maybe a touch bigger. Mine is between 1/10 and 1/4 acre. I am at 14 ft deep at the deepest and have a basin that is generally about 12-3 ft deep. To Bills point I had to go almost straight down with the sides. I drop straight down on the sides ( 4 ft deep ) to a 3 ft ledge going around on 3 sides of the pond. I then drop the remaining 9 ft straight down to the basin. I have one side of the pond that drops at a very aggressive slope of about 1.25:1.
Most of my soil is clay and I haven’t seen it drop to the 2:1 slope as mentioned, however I do have some of the side that have gone to more of a 1.5:1 slope.

All that being said, my bigger concern for you and for others trying this is that you can not compact the soil appropriately to hold the water effectively. I am fortunate to have a seasonal creek that keeps feeding my pond up until about mid July. Once I stop getting that feed, I show the significant seepage that you would expect from a pond that is not correctly compacted. Over time the seepage has slowed due to the pond filling in its own gaps and aging, however last year I was down about 3-4 ft due to this.

So what does that have to do with the price of anything??? Well you look like your planning on having a good deal of variety in your pond as far as fish varieties. Note the amount of fish the pond will support will be the same (x number of pounds ) no matter what variety of fish you put in there. Thus more variety the lower number of fish of any variety it will support. The other thing that comes into play is if you have the seepage that I would expect with a pond that can not be compacted correctly, then you will lose water volume and as such drive the fish into a smaller area and thus the total holding amount of your pond will also be less and you will have stressed fish and a stressed environment.

All that being said, I would have a contractor come in with a excavator to do the pond. You will not be able to get the depths you want in such a small area otherwise. I would also re-consider what fish you want in the pond. ( with aeration in my pond not going all the time, my surface temp is already near 68 to 70 degrees and my deep temp in about 56 right now. By mid summer my surface temp gets to be around 85 and deep temp is 70. I am near the woods with lots of shade and near Lake Ontario where I get a thermal cooling effect off the lake. Where I am going with this is that a pond that small may have issues with trout, unless you have a cool spring feeding it all the time ( then you get into the issues with spring fed ponds. ) you can find those issues on a diff thread.

I have YP and SMB in my pond ( about 100 perch and 25 SMB and I am considered to be heavily loaded for fish for a pond my size ) I was given guidance here to go with the YP and SMB combo as opposed to YP and LMB due to the amount of young produced and the desire to have a balanced pond where I wont have to worry about stunting as much as with other combinations.

Thus all in all I agree with Bill, I think you may have some pretty lofty goals for a pond that size and I would really look into what is best for the area you have and the conditions you have. I know that when I looked at it from that angle I found I have a much happier pond and a much more balanced Eco system that I do not have to do any work to if I don't want to. ( But I still mess around and make changes just for fun )

Good luck and keep asking questions here. The more you ask before you break ground the better the overall experience will be!!!

Other than concurring with Bill Cody here are my thoughts on you project ideas:

1.) You can't have it all species wise especially in a pond that small. It's going to have to be coldwater species or the warmer water species. Optimum temps for the trout will not be optimum for the bass and perch and vice versa. You can do this in larger oligotrophic lakes however a small pond is different story.

2.) Like Bill said you can't have it that deep with such a small size pond. You're not only going to have some sluffing of the sides, you could have a dangerous pond to walk aroud as the sides could cave in. My 1/10th acres ponds are only 8 to 9 feet deep and they are almost vertical as it is and when I drain them the sides sluff in a little even with the solid clay I have here. Furthermore if you want coldwater fish you don't want any shallow areas that warm up easily. Why not put in a pier and swim off of that?

However there is a way where you can have the sides almost vertical but it will be more expensive. You could probably do it with a liner but that comes with some downsides.

3.) Just because your pond is deep doesn't mean diddly squat for keeping colder water for trout. That colder water is going to lose oxygen at some point in the summer and you probably won't be able to feed your trout as they will stay in the deeper water. Adding a diffuser will make matters worse by mixing your water column and warming it in summer. Result - cooked trout. I use a difuser in my trout pond that I run primarily at night because I run sufficent cold water in to counter the warming. (See below)

4.) If you want trout you will have to add cold water as I do. I add about 38 gpms of 51.6 F.degree aerated well water to my 1/10th acre trout pond 24/7 seven to 8 months of the year to keep the water generally in the low 60s all summer. If you add this kind of water be prepared to pay the bill for pumping it (it costs me about $100.00 per month), and you need someplace to overflow it i.e. wetlands, another bigger pond etc. On my property it overflows into two more ponds until the remainder that hasn't seeped or evaporated ends up in a highway ditch.

A friend in Gladwin tells me in Michigan it's illegal to overflow your water into a ditch. Or maybe just in his area? I do know your state is much stricter than mine and frankly I'm all for environmental protection but your state goes overboard to the point of ridiculousness.

Here the highway department is apparently whining about my overflow (that causes no harm to anyone and even benefits a wetland) but there is nothing they can do (someone reported me to the division of water recently and I think it was the highway department) however I am below the pumping rate for anyone to be able to take any action. 70 gpms or 100,000 gpms per day is the cut off for a major water user in my state and that is not me.

One advantage to a small pond in raising trout is it's easier to keep cool if you want to go the route of pumping in well water. It can be fun and is even profitable for me. See pics on my website.

http://www.ligtel.com/~jjbaird/bairdfish2.htm

Thanks for all the great information! I was really glad to see the posts from the three of you. Cecil, I checked out your website and the pics of your fish posted on this forum and all I can say is You da man! You sure produce some monsters!

The way I have the pond scraped out right now it is in an L shape with the middle rounded out. The L is made of three 40'X40' squares, so with the rounded out area we are looking at somewhere around 5000 sq ft. The widest part is 66 feet. We are on a limited budget, so I don’t think I can afford a reputable pond builder, but an excavator might be possible. Due to the width of the pond, if I had a slope of 2:1 I should be able to get a deep spot of 15’ in the middle of the pond and 10’ on the sides.

I would like to build this as a bass pond in case I have trouble reaching the temps I will need for trout. How much shallow areas will be needed for YP and SMB + FH? Will a 2:1 slope create enough of these? Will these shallows contribute too much to warming for trout? Instead of shallow areas should I go with 5-6’ deep “shallows” with sunken Christmas trees?

I read that YP and SMB like cooler water (no optimal growth temps were mentioned), would they work in a trout pond?

Cecil, I have some thoughts about cooling and have replied to your posting “Another way to cool a small trout pond?”

Bender, You will need some areas for YP and SMB that are more shallow (3-5 ft deep) with gravel type of bottom for the SMB to spawn on and some weedy areas or structure for the YP to lay their eggs on. But for the most part they like it deep and cool. I only see the SMB jump out at night to get teh bugs but during the day they do not cruise the shallows like LMB. (at least not in my pond) The YP I never see except the small new fish as they grow up in the shallow weeds prior to going down deep. As I said I have a 3 ft wide 3-5 ft shelf around 3 sides of the pond for the spawning beds. I am also adding a series of shallow 2-4 ft wider (expansion to the pond ) areas as it gets dryer this summer for the fatheads and small fry to stay in for protection.

As for will they work well in the same cooler water, the answer is yes sort of. The YP and SMB do like cooler 50-65 is favorite temps. The trout like it cooler than that but can deal with the 50's and low 60s. Remember as you areate the pond, you will make the lower part of the water cloumn warmer due to the mixing. Thus unless you do what Cecil or others have suggested, you might warm things up too much for the trout.

Well thats my $0.02 worth. I will now leave it up to the real experts to give you better ideas. Good luck and enjoy the experience of building the eco system. Its a great feeling when everything works together!!

Bender - If you don't need to have the SMbass spawn they don't need shallow water. SMB fingerling and juveniles are fairly cheap. Considering you only have a 0.1 ac pond you would not need to buy very many every year or so to suppliment the SMB population. YPerch do not need shallow water to complete spawns and hatching of eggs. Place some brush (temporary in spring or permanent) along the pond edge and YP eggs will be laid on brush and hatching will occur there. Some shallow water will primarily be beneficial in your case to minnows / small fish as refuge and feeding areas.

Depending on the genetic stock of your perch and SMB some strains of these farm raised species in Ohio can easily tolerate water temperatures in the 84F to 88F range. Laggis' (Gobbles, MI) fish are probably accustomed to cool water (high 70's, occasional 80F). Ideal growth rates for most yellow perch are around 72F to 76F. My YP feed well in 80F-82F water. Most strains of YP decrease rate of feeding at the surface when water temps are above 84F-88F. Growth rates of YP and SMB will be okay but not optimum if water remains below 70F all summer.

Bill, if Bender encountered water temps at the surface of 82+ degrees should he discontinue feeding entirely?

More specifically, if I have bluegill that are still pellet feeding at this temp, should the feeder still be turned off so the YP don't stress?

Bruce - If Bender gets 82F water he won't be raising any trout.

I would Keep feeding in the pond with YP and BG as long as the BG are eating. If it is too warm for YP they won't eat. My YP eat well even when water temps are in high 80's, although quanitity eaten drops off. I think the smaller fish (9"-13") are primarily the ones eating the most in mid to high 80F water. Largest ones slack way off in feeding during July - August.

I have been told that the YP typically accumulate all their necessary fat for the next spawn buy July 1st. Additional feeding is primarily for maintenance. I am not sure how this applies to aquaculture conditions and raising for accelerated growth. Ultimately it probabaly shortenes their life spans due to fat and cholesterol accumulations from improper diets.

Well, I finally started constructing my pond. I rented a backhoe with a 15’ extend-a-hoe and dug it out in about 5 days over the Labor Day holiday. This was my first experience with heavy equipment, but I was very happy at how it worked out. If I had to do it again, I would rent an excavator and saved myself a couple days work. Now the pond is dug and filling with water from the past couple months of rain storms. We have very heavy clay and it appears there is little seepage.

From the previous posts I figure my main problems for a trout pond will be wastes, excess nutrients (I plan on pellet feeding), Temperature and DO. I have too few locations to dispose of pond to run well water 24/7, but I am hoping the following will be enough. If I do all of these and still cannot achieve the temperatures I need for trout, I will put in YP and SMB.

1. Water flows from the pond to an artificial bog (80’x 6’). From the bog, the water flows into a stream (80’ long x 6’ wide x 2’ deep) and then flows back into the pond. I plan on using a 11000 gph pump to accomplish this.

2. In an attempt at geothermal cooling, the water flowing from the pond to the marsh will flow through 3 tubes of ¾” in diameter buried 5 feet underground. I am also thinking of using a bong chiller (cooling tower) to lower pond temperature, although I don’t know how well it will work. People have been using them successfully to cool computers so I am curious how well it will work on a pond.

3. Sprinkler system waters over an acre at 2” of pond water per square foot per week. This results in at least (56,000 gallons) of pond water removed from the pond each week.

4. As seepage, irrigation and evaporation cause the water level to drop, well water will be added as needed using a float valve. I am hoping there will be enough well water coming into the pond to regulate the pond temperature. I am debating whether to aerate the well water and then pump it to the bottom of the pond to increase DO there.

Do you think this will work? Do you think I will need additional aeration besides aerated well water and the aeration provided from the stream?

Bender,

Without supplemental cold well water at a rate faster and more in quantity then you are apparently going to provide, I think your pond will get too warm at some point in the summer for trout. I also see your underground pipes clogging with algae that gets sucked into them. I have underground overflow pipes up to 6 inches that still have debris buildup no matter what I do. I even screen them! My present underground 6 inch pipe can no longer handle about 40 gpms of overflow! I have finally gone to an open trench to run my overflow away from the trout pond.

With the juice you use for your 11,000 gph pump (about 183 gpm) you could easily power a well and accomplish the same thing cheaper.

Just my two cents and I could be wrong.

You could have trout from fall to spring if you don't want to run the well water. No need to run well water then. I shut mine done the beginning of November and don't start it back up until April of so. (depends on the how fast it warms up in spring). And that's with the equivalent of 5000 pounds of fish per acre.

I would put in a well but I don’t have a good spot to put the water. That is why I was hoping irrigation of 56000 gallons a week would keep temps in check. I guess I will have to find a place for the extra water or switch to YP and SMB.

If I stocked the trout for Fall/spring and I had YP and SMB year round. How many of each species should I stock? I also thought about putting 4 or 5 LMB (all male or all female so they wouldn’t get out of hand) in the pond just to make things interesting.

Also, if I stocked trout for the fall/spring should I consider trying to heat the pond up a little for the winter so they could continue to grow? I was wondering how well one of those wood burning furnaces would work for a pond…..

I can't tell you anything from experience regarding SMB and YP numbers in such a small pond. Bill Cody is the expert on that and there is a thread on that already here somewhere. Bill? I actually lost most of my broodstock YP in a pond that small and although I have theories on why it happened I'm still somewhat baffled. I would say though if you want feed trained SMB Laggis Fish Farms would be the way to go. That is if the Fed ban on fish transports gets lifted by next spring. And he will have to disease test all of his fish which he may not want to due to the cost. This order has the potential to put fish farms out of business. In a pond that small feed trained fish would be the way to go though.

If you want SMB I personally would forego the largemouths. The largemouths will bully the smallmouth and keep them away from the feed for the most part.

As far as trout for a fall to spring fishery, I would plant no more than 50 larger trout in the entire pond. Although you have virtually no weed growth or carrying capacity worries during this time of year the more fish you add and feed the more you will fuel weed growth the following spring. After one season you can tell if you can get away with more the following year. You should feed them up to ice up. Don't overfeed and reduce feed as the water cools.

Heating water doesn't sound feasible or economical to me unless you have really deep pockets. It would be an uphill battle against dropping air temps and you would lose. Besides catching trout through the ice is a blast!

Cecil, have you tried to run your well through the winter. I would think if you could maintain warmer temps through the winter, it would allow a longer growing season.

I also hit a drain tile that goes down into a farmed valley with a little creek at the bottom. I elbowed it up to allow the pond to fill, but maybe I could use that to drain the extra water. My only concern is that I would flood the farmer’s field. Anyone familiar with the capacity of drainage tile?

No, I won't run the well through the winter as that's an extra $500.00 in electical costs, and I honestly don't think the amount of flow could keep the water warm enough in winter to justify the cost. I could also have problems with ice clogging up the highway drainage ditch I ultimately flow into, and that could get me into hot water -- not to mention potentially overflowing onto the highway and causing accidents.

My fish grow so rapidly the rest of the year anyway it I just couldn't justify it.

What is the diameter of the tile and how deep is it?

I think the drain tile is 4" buried between 3-4 feet deep.

I'm not an engineer but i can tell you from experience a pipe with water under pressure can handle much more flow than via gravity flow. Last I measured it I think I was running about 42 gpms through a 4 inch PVC pipe via gravity flow into the trout pond. It almost fills the pipe as it enters it horizonatlly! Maybe if it was vertical it would go out faster?

Great! I think that will handle the water flow I need. What water temperature should I start running from the well? Can I run the well water through the 80' stream or will the water warm up too much?

Not sure I understand you question about what water temp you should start from the well? You won't be able to control the temp of your ground water when it first comes out of the ground. It will be constant year around. Mine is 51.6 F., your's is probably a little lower as you are farther north --maybe closer to 50 F. The farther north you go the colder the ground water. Northern Wisconsin where I get my brook trout from has 45 F. ground water!

I do have an individual on another board that claims there is a 48 F. aquifer in your area that is tied into Lake Michigan but I'm not sure if he is bsing or not.

As far as running the water through your 80 foot stream it will depend on how fast the water is moving and how deep it is. The deeper and narrower your stream to some extent the less the warming along with movement. I still say you need to go by the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principal. That's my opinion anyway. But then again you could be breaking new ground. Who knows? It just seems like even if your more complex approach works, you make be looking at higher utility costs than just running a well 24/7.

All I can say is for me a pond no bigger than 1/10th acre with steep sides and an aerated flow dumping into it at about 40 gpms allows me to grow out trout year around and essentially grow them out as large as they have genetic potential to. Carrying capacity is about 12 pounds per gpm or about 500 lbs. of trout. This is not original stocking density but estimated maximum weight before harvest.

Three things you need to grow out healthy trout: correct temps, good dissolved oxygen, and low ammonia. I acheive this with the areated well water and enough exchange of water to dilute waste buildup. I also believe the natural bottom is condusive to natural nitrification, which I'm not sure would be as optium with a liner. However soil on top of a liner would probably be the same as a natural bottom.

One more thing to consider on trout: Only get them from a disease free certified source. Not sure about Michigan but I have no choice here.

Thanks for all the great information! I will post my ground water temp when I have a chance to measure it.

I was wondering at what point should I turn on the well. Should I start it when the pond surface temperature goes above 75 or is that too late?

There are several reasons I wanted the stream, one being that I am hoping the stream will provide spawning ground for the trout (or SMB if I decide to go that route). The stream is going to be 2’ deep and 6’ wide and 80’ long, but I might make it 3-4’ wide if it will help. The 11000 gph pump by Superfalls is very efficient at 345 watts, so I won’t be going broke on electricity.

Another reason I wanted the stream was to combat the ammonia problem that you mentioned. The “headwaters” of the stream will be a 500 sqft bog that will serve as a biological filter. The filter should help cut down on wastes by providing surface area for bacteria and the plants in the bog should help remove excess nutrients.

Also, going on what I learned from my aquarium, I am planning on putting some gravel on the bottom. Gravel is supposed to increase the surface area available for the bacteria to grow and help the nitrification process.

Hi Bender sounds like you are working on a great setup. I noticed that at the end of the posting you stated "I am planning on putting some gravel on the bottom. Gravel is supposed to increase the surface area available for the bacteria to grow and help the nitrification process." Keep in mind that this principle only works with an under gravel filter that supplies oxygen to the substrate. Beneficial bacteria must have a steady running flow of oxygen to break down the toxics...you will have aeration flowing if read correctly, however the gravel itself will not function as a filter unless you are pulling water through it. Let us know how your pond works out.

IllinoisLonghorn,

Where you said:

..."however the gravel itself will not function as a filter unless you are pulling water through it. Let us know how your pond works out."

I respectfully partially disagree. Sure flowing water would be the optimum for sufficient oxygen to allow nitrifying bacteria to do it's job on the increased surface area, however, I don't believe pulling water through it is necessary for sufficient oxygen.

75 is far too late. You trout will start croaking at 70 F. Optimum temps are 55 to 65.

Even if you do get a successful hatch in your spawning stream, where will you put them to keep the larger trout from eating them?

I hadn’t thought about that. I could try to keep the young in the stream and the larger out (after spawning) or maybe I could keep enough minnows/shiners in the pond that they won’t eat all of the trout.

Even if I don’t have any reproduction, I think by giving the trout a habitat where they could spawn would be beneficial. I read somewhere that part of the reason trout have a shorter life span when stocked in a pond, is due to the stress of having to reabsorb their eggs.