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Very well done, Lassig...and well documented.
You will be contacted very shortly by the founding members of the Sunil-Burgermeister fathead forage society.

Brettski #183535 09/14/09 05:34 PM
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Thank brettski, looking forward to it. I only hope to have enough water come spring to put in a couple pounds of fatheads


lassig #183738 09/16/09 05:29 AM
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OK, The start of the project and during the projects we had many rain delays. Now what I finally have the area around the pond planted there is no rain in the forecast. Wondering if three days of work and $1000 in seed and fertilizer (till in not left on the surface) is going to go to waste? How long can fescus and oats lay in the ground before germinating?


lassig #183819 09/16/09 09:48 PM
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You'll get rain in plenty of time for it to germinate. The worst part is if it gets wet, starts to germinate, then goes thru another prolonged dry spell. Then the partially germinated seeds will die. If you get rain, and the ground stays damp everything will be fine. We're starting to get a lot of dew on the ground in the mornings now around here, and the ground is staying damp for quite a few hours into the day. If we had one rain to give it a good soaking I think it'll stay damp enough for it to germinate and grow. If you had planted it in late Spring, and we were going into summer, I'd be more concerned.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #183847 09/16/09 11:19 PM
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So when are you going to start talking about fish stocking??? You've mentioned bluegill for flyfishing and fatheads for forage.

Great Pics BTW! This is just a cool project. I rarely get a chance to venture outside of the questions and observations section of the forum!!!

You will have plenty of water to plop some fatheads into pretty much as soon as the ice comes off.


n8ly #183854 09/17/09 05:03 AM
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Thanks esshup, I was thinking the same but good to hear it from someone else. Rain is predicted for 5 days next week. Hopefully 2 or 3 of them will come true. We also have been having tons of dew every morning. It has really been helping my fall plots.

I have been thinking a lot about fish stocking and even have some ideas of what I was thinking about in the lastest HBG thread. Current thinking is HBG and HSB. Goining to have to do more research as to the cost of feeding for this and if I want to get that involved. I really do like the idea of catching large HBG on the fly rod and tieing in large HSBs. Right now it is time to wrap up this project until March when I frost seed the wildflowers and native warm season grasses. I only have a couple of things to do yet this fall; secure the limbs on the PVC trees, put out wood duck boxes, and plant hairy vetch/winter rye on the very steep slopes that cannot be worked with equipment. It is getting very close to the start of hunting season and time to change focus. I will post pics of the pond as it fills.


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lassig-
your post sounded so final-it has been fun following the project---and looking forward to it filling up!!!

n8ly---it is good to have you in the blue collar section.

otto #183888 09/17/09 12:49 PM
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It feels good to have the basic construction finish, is it really ever finish. There still is work to do and will be every year. I will continue to post as the pond starts to mature.


lassig #184013 09/18/09 09:31 PM
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Lets come up with a fish PLAN! IF you dont want to feed much, than you might want to consider a HSB and Black Crappie plan! Jeff Slipke had some awesome case studies today at the conference using those two species and various other forage minnows.

If you stocked your fatheads and shiners and black crappie this spring, and added a handful of hybrid bluegills to the mix, you could then add your HSB later in the year and possibly stock them a bit heavy to keep reproduction down to a minimum with the BC and HBG. You then would not be dependant upon pellets nearly as much as just a HBG/HSB pond would be.

10 lbs fatheads
10 lbs shiners
50 lake chubsuckers airmailed in from overtons
100 BC
100 HBG

Then plopped in 75 HSB a few months later or even next spring and you should be good to go with just a bit of supplemental feeding for fun! You would then want to replace annually or biannually the fish that you harvest from the system.


n8ly #184028 09/19/09 07:59 AM
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Interesting combo. Still on the fence about feeding. More due to the fact that I am not resident on the farm and may not get there for 3 or 4 weeks than cost (though it does come into consideration). My real goal is still very large BG and it seems HBG and feeding is the way to get there. I am not a LB fisherman and like fishing for HSB is I am leaning that way also. Just would like something in the pond that would also be a reproducing source of feed for the HBG and HSB. BC may just be the answer, I was leaning towards redear or pumpkinseeds since they will eat snails and things the HBG and HSB will not.

I want to make sure I understand the ins and outs of feeding. With an HBG and HSB pond would I be feeding the same size feed? For all sizes? Should I focus on smaller size feed so all fish benifit? Is feeding twice a day the best way to go (hour after sunrise and hour before sunset)? I understand that you only feed enought ot be cleaned up in 15 to 20 minutes. Don't start feeding until the water temp is 55 or above. Stop feeding when the water temp drops below 55.


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If big bluegill are your priority, skip the crappie - they get too big for bluegill to eat very quickly, and beyond that they'll compete directly with bluegill for food and thus lessen the size of the bluegill significantly.

You don't have to go with hybrid bluegill to get them very large; numerous studies have found that regular northern-strain bluegill grow as large or larger in the long run on pellet food than HBG. HBG will get bigger on average in a pond that isn't fed, especially if there are a lot of FHM, and they grow faster initially regardless of the circumstances; but the state record bluegill for IL was three and a half pounds, and it was a common northern-strain bluegill. Bruce Condello on here has caught more than one northern-strain bluegill (though I should note he has his own sub-strain that he's been breeding for ten years) over two pounds. And the huge advantage of northern-strain over HBG is that the HBG are only good genetically the initial, stocking generation; they denegerate greatly even in the first generation of offspring. So you would have to re-stock them regularly. Whereas northern-strain bluegill do not degenerate genetically at all, and once you've created ideal conditions for them in your pond, all you have to do is maintain said conditions and the bluegill will get huge year in and year out with no re-stocking.

I would recommend you look into getting some of Bruce's 'gills. He's moving to a new spread, so I don't know the status of his bluegill, but if you could get some they'd be worth their weight in gold. Another possibility is the Jim Frey hatchery in West Union, IA; they specialize in large northern-strain bluegill and have been breeding them selectively for years, and they deliver to IL:

http://www.jimfreyfishhatchery.com/consulting.htm

Another note: I would recommend against HSB if big bluegill are the number one priority. HSB are a great fish, with lots of fans on here, as they get huge in ponds; but part of how they get huge is by being fond of pellet food, which means they'll directly compete with the bluegill for it. Big channel catfish will literally knock bluegill out of the way with their tails to keep the bluegill from the food; unless HSB are atypically generous among fish species, I'm guessing they would do much the same thing. At a minimum, they'll eat a lot of the food that would otherwise go to the bluegill if no other species were present that ate pellet food. So I would suggest, as someone who specializes in big bluegill, that you not stock any other species that eats pellet food: no CC, no HSB, and no grass carp (which most definitely will bully bluegill, and eat enormous amounts of pellet food).

My recommendation would be to stock 300 bluegill per acre (this number is significantly lower than those normally recommended by hatcheries, but will result in faster growth for the bluegill) if stocking fingerlings, or 150 if stocking fish 3" or larger; 100 largemouth per acre at least, perhaps 150 if stocking fingerlings; 50 redear per acre; and as many FHM as you can afford (you can't have too many of them, and the more you stock the better chance they have of establishing). You might also consider stocking grass shrimp, which are a favorite food of bluegill; TJ on here regularly puts together orders from a hatchery in NE that sells a strain of grass shrimp, P. Kadiakensis, that does well in cold climates and has successfully established in the ponds of several members on here; I just put two orders into three different BOW a little over a week ago.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post178742

Keep no bass - none. You want the bass to overpopulate because then they keep the bluegill well-thinned such that the bluegill that survive the bass gauntlet grow several times faster than they would in a pond in which there were more bluegill competing for food. The bass won't get large, but your bluegill will grow like mutants and within two or three years will average almost as much if not more in weight than the bass.

As far as pellet size, if you stock fingerlings, you would want to feed whatever pellet size Aquamax makes for fingerlings; I don't know the name of that size but they have sizes for everything from fry up to LMB pellets. After a few months when the bluegill reach 3", you can feed Aquamax 500; when a good number of the bluegill reach 6" or better, you can mix in 600 half and half with the 500.

You can feed up to three times daily in the peak feeding months, probably May through September in your region; I'm currently doing this in multiple ponds and the bluegill feed like piranhas, and are growing pretty fast. If the fish start tapering off in their enthusiasm as the water cools, you scale back to once or twice a day. Then, as you noted, when the water temp drops below 55, they'll go off the food until the following spring.

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Walt,

Thanks for the detail response. My pond is 1/2 acre in size but not anywhere near full yet. So early next spring if decent water is in the pond I am goint to plant 20# of fatheads. I am not in a hurry to stock fish I would rather do it when right than rush it. So what do you think of the following stocking plan

March/April 2010 Stock 20# Fatheads and ?? PK Shrimps
May 2010 100 3-5" Bluegill
25 3-5" Redear
50 3-5" Largemouth Bass

Start feeding with Aquamax 500 at stocking of bluegills.


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Sounds like a good plan! 500 to 1000 PK would be a great number to start with; put a couple bales of hay into the pond in a couple places two or three feet deep for habitat/food for them.

Is your pond 1/3 full yet? If so, you could stock the FHM and PK now. 1/3 full is the level that is commonly recommended for stocking fish by most state agencies and most better pond managers as well.

Are you going to have an automatic feeder? They make a big difference. They're always there, rain or shine, don't have emergencies that pull them away, don't feel too tired after work to feed, etc. Just the ability to feed multiple times a day makes a huge difference.

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Haven't been to the farm in a week and it only had a little puddle on the bottom then that was about a foot deep at best. It didn't rain all week so most likely it is dry now. Being a drainage pond I need to wait for rain. Hoping that it is at least half full by March.

Will any type of hay due or is one type better than others? I am assuming you are talking about the small rectangular bales. I have many 900 pound round bales of wheat straw on the farm from last year.

I will have to have an automatic feeder since I am not resident at the farm and sometimes don't get there for 3 or 4 weeks.


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Yeah, one foot of water won't get you far. But if it's even 1/3 full by March, you can safely stock then.

I learned the hay bale trick from TJ via Bob Lusk. I would think smaller bales would be better. You wouldn't want a bunch, because they'll lower the pH of the pond, so for this same reason I would think smaller would be better than bigger, as two small bales probably won't significantly alter the pH.

The automatic feeder will be the best money you ever spent. Make sure to get one that has at least 100-lb capacity for fish food, as you'll need that much food in it if you're only going to be there once a month or so.

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Another thought: if paying a little more isn't an issue for the feeder, especially since one should be plenty for a pond that size, Texas Hunter makes fish feeders with 125-lb. and 175-lb. capacity. Sweeney also makes feeders with capacity that much or more, and those two brands are tops in quality. I've experienced firsthand and also read on here some of the problems that can come from cheaper feeders; if I owned the ponds I'm feeding now I probably would have nothing but TH or Sweeney feeders. In my experience (I fish a lake some that has Sweeneys, and have read several glowing reviews on here from TH owners) those two brands are in a class apart from the rest.

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Paying a little more always hurt but I am more interested in the unit working reliable since I am not there than saving a few dollars and not working.


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I think that's very wise. In that case I would suggest going with either a Texas Hunter or a Sweeney. You can't go wrong with either one of those, whereas it's eminently easy to go wrong with any of the other brands (I know from personal experience).

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BA Products had some nice remington feeders being demonstrated at the conference along with the Sweeney and Texas Hunter.

All the feeders looked and worked great!



n8ly #184151 09/20/09 10:33 PM
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 Originally Posted By: n8ly
Lets come up with a fish PLAN! IF you dont want to feed much, than you might want to consider a HSB and Black Crappie plan! Jeff Slipke had some awesome case studies today at the conference using those two species and various other forage minnows.

If you stocked your fatheads and shiners and black crappie this spring, and added a handful of hybrid bluegills to the mix, you could then add your HSB later in the year and possibly stock them a bit heavy to keep reproduction down to a minimum with the BC and HBG. You then would not be dependant upon pellets nearly as much as just a HBG/HSB pond would be.

10 lbs fatheads
10 lbs shiners
50 lake chubsuckers airmailed in from overtons
100 BC
100 HBG

Then plopped in 75 HSB a few months later or even next spring and you should be good to go with just a bit of supplemental feeding for fun! You would then want to replace annually or biannually the fish that you harvest from the system.


That was a great segment - I hope someone experiments with this stocking plan RE Nate. I also encourage folks to contact Jeff Slipke and request his presentation via email - I would hope he would make it available. The data doesn't lie - this plan works - huge HSB and very limited BC recruitment. Fascinating stuff IMO!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Guys I have been following this SEP (Jeff's) project for a few years. It is highly dependant on TShad as the backbone of the forage base. You will need to factor that in or out (replaced with GShiners , additional FH , LCS , or other Shad substitutes)and feeding. Obviously anytime you change species you change the dynamics. SEP does not know if the subs will work or not or if the basic plan will work outside the South (ponds with a good bloom) or the effect of feeding (no feeding in the studies). Sure worth a try as long as you consider the pros and cons. Contact Jeff for details.
















ewest #184365 09/21/09 08:43 PM
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Mark,
A 1/2 acre pond can produce quite a bit more fish with a put/take fishery than it can as a natural balanced. There are some real good ideas for you to consider here, but based on your goals/conversations, you may want to stick with the HBG/HSB Combo and Put/Take every couple of years. If you want to add crappie to the mix, I dont see a problem with it, because I am fairly confident the HSB will keep their recruitment to a minimum in your pond and they will provide a nice bonus/forage to the mix. You may not consistently grow 14-15 inchers, but your originals will get to 12 inches pretty quickly, and you can keep any 8-9 inch offspring that you catch if they stack up there. It is fairly easy to control their numbers in a small pond at certain times of the year if needed.

With a 1/2 acre Hybrid Put/Take with occasional supplemental feeding your fish will grow large, be very aggressive and will put some meat on the table while providing quite a bit of sporting activity as well. You may not grow the Illinois state record, but you will have alot of fun!

Dont worry about feeding the fish hundreds of pounds of food, just supplement them when you can if desired either by hand or with a feeder. If your only on the property once a month or so, I would hold off on the heavy feeding program until your in a better position to monitor fish feeding activity as well as neighbor/poacher activity. There are pros and cons to a heavy feeding program, and it is not for everyone for every situation.

****My opinions expressed here may take into consideration your goals/thoughts, etc but are heavily biased towards my small pond management/ hybrid striped bass experimental management style. Please remember that you are the pond boss and ultimately will decide the right path to take for your new little slice of heaven****


n8ly #184426 09/22/09 05:17 AM
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Thanks for the ideas and keep them coming guys. I have lots of ideas floating around in my head. I imagine that I will be thinking about this a lot while I am on the deer stand this fall. Not much can be done till late winter/early spring so we have plenty of time to kick this around.

THanks again


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Got back to the farm this weekend and the oats and grass are coming along nicely. I planted some hairy vetch on the steep slopes that I couldn't work with machinery. The wood duck boxes have been hung in hope of being used next spring. That is about it for work on the pond till March when frost seeding of the warm season grasses and wildflowers will be done. Here is a picture of the pond area



Slide show from around the pond area

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/lassig/pond/plus2weeks/?albumview=slideshow


lassig #189621 10/27/09 09:33 PM
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A month later than the last update. A lot of the grass and oats came in great. Plus a little rain has started to fill the pond. Here is a shot of the pond area.



Here is a slideshow from around the pond

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/lassig/pond/plus6weeks/?albumview=slideshow


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