Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Brand New Pond - What Should I Do?

I recently moved into a new home that sits on 13 acres and I had two old ponds dug out after about 10 years of them sitting overgrown with weeds and a broken bank. I now need to create a healthy pond with structures, fish, and so forth.

I have been reading this site for weeks but I have an atypical situation that I cant seem to find the answers for. My ponds are both about 40ft wide and 80 ft long (each, they are right next to each other). They are each about 1/10 of an acre surface area and about 8 ft deep. They have a pipe right below the water surface where water can travel between the two ponds and small fish could too. I can block this off if I would like.

I do not eat fish (and there for no fish will be removed for eating) but I would like a healthy pond that allows me and my son to fish when we would like. I would like to have bluegills or sunfish in the pond along with large mouth basses. I would like to have a few catfish too I guess if I can get them without muddying up the water. My purpose of the two ponds is to have the ability to fish for fun... and to attract wildlife.

This brings me to my questions... What should I place in the pond first and can I add everything now. Here is my thought, I was planning on adding minnows of some sort (on here I read alot about fathead minnows) for food. Can I add the minnows from the local creeks and rivers in my area (Huntington WV)? Next, I figure bluegills are needed for LMB, can I just catch some from local waters and place them in there? And then what about large fish such as LMB.

I have access to lots of creeks, streams, rivers, and most importantly, lots of family members who have old farm ponds with lots of minnows, bass, bluegills, catfish, ect. I would like to stock the pond so it can sustain itself in the fish populations. I would like to add large 3+ lb LMB soon so I can fish them this summer. I am unsure how many I should add but would like atleast 10 or so. I can add as many adult bluegills/sunfish as I should too. Is there any specific minnows and bluegills I should or shouldn't add. I would like to be able to stock using free sources, not a hatchery but I can buy from a hatchery if need be.

Any helpful suggestions or comments would be nice to have. I know I am a little impatient but I figure a handful of bass should not eat all of the adult BGs and all of the BGs should not eat all of the minnows.

gregWV :

First welcome to the forum and good luck with your ponds. You have many options because you have 2 ponds next to each other. This is limited by the fact that they are 1/10 acre each (40x80= 1/14 acre).

What fish are in the ponds now? How do they get their water (well,rain,run off) and does the water level change much over the year?

Will fish be taken out of the ponds? It is very hard to keep a pond in balance (fish populations) if no fish are harvested. A small pond can quickly get overcrowded or fished out if not managed at all. In my opinion there is no stock and fish and forget pond. They all require adjustments to the fish populations.

A basic rule of thumb is that a managed pond can support 300 to 400 lbs of fish per acre. Of that 300-400 lbs 25% by weight will be predator fish like LMB or catfish. With an aquaculture type operation you can have more fish per acre but it requires much more knowledge and effort to run one without serious problems. With that in mind you could have 7 to 10 lbs of predator fish per pond and 21 to 30 lbs of forage fish like BG or minnows per pond.

These are your ponds and your goals so you should decide what to do with input from this forum. Having said that if it were my choice , which it is not, I would not have a breeding population of LMB in ponds that small but would use 1 female LMB per pond(at the right time) to help control the BG. I would stock BG , fathead minnows and channel cats (CC) with the one LMB later in one pond. I would seperate the 2 ponds and use the second pond for RES (redear sunfish)and BG and feed them and add a few CC and 1 LMB.

I don't know if you can do this by catching your own fish. That would depend on how well you can ID them , keep them alive and transfer and do so at the right time. Minnows go in first then BG then catfish. It is to cold now but you would start in time to finish before it gets to hot.

Hi GregWV - welcome to the forum.
Ewest is on the right track for advice so far for your ponds. It will be difficult to maintain a natural balance of LM bass and bgill in a pond this small. I would try and stock JUST male OR just female bass. This will reduce the problems of trying to maintain a balance of bass in the pond based on the amount of forage fish present. A few bass in a pond this small pond will soon become hook smart and after numerous catching & release fishing sessions, they will be very difficult to catch. There has been several discussions here about this problem with bass in small ponds. I have experienced if several times first hand. You will learn too from experience. The smaller the pond the worse the problem becomes. I highly recommend that you read the March-April 2006 issue of POND BOSS MAGAZINE where this topic is discussed by Dr. Dave Willis and myself.

Take Ewest’s advice to heart. Don’t expect to grow a lot of big fish in your small 0.1 acre ponds. You can add numerous big fish to the pond but unless there is ample food don't expect very many of them to be there when the pond is drained. See Deb's example of a 15 yr old LMbass pond below. Again, you will learn by experience.

Think about this. If you put one 12” bass in your pond and if plump, it will weigh about a pound, otherwise a 13”er weighs a pound. A normal bass on average eats about 3% of its body weight per day in food which for your 1 pound bass is almost ½ ounce (0.48oz.). I figure it will feed about 300 days per year in WV climate. So 300 x 0.48 oz equals 144 oz or about 9 pounds of fish per year. The bass may not feed every day but when it feeds, it will often binge feed and then rest a day or two depending. But regardless, plan on 9 pounds of fish to feed your one bass IF you want it to have normal weight and gain weight. A 3” bluegill weighs about 0.32 oz. Thus 144oz / 0.32oz equals 450, 3” bluegills to feed your one pound bass for one year. Multiply this times the number of bass and remember to increase the size of bluegills as the bass size increases.

Stocking adult bass requires the presence of lots of forage fish for them to remain healthy and keep from losing weight.

If it were my pond I would buy bass (predators) that were pre-trained to eat fish pellets and this way you can grow more bass per pond than dictated the natural way by Mother Nature and mentioned by Ewest above. If your son is typical, he will enjoy talking about and feeding the fish as much or more than catching them. There has been previous detailed discussion on this fish feeding topic also (LMbass included).

To make your 0.10 acre pond very productive you almost have to go to an aquaculture – fish feeding method. Your main problem will be in the fish becoming accustomed (conditioned) to avoiding hooks and fishermen. For it to be assuccessful as you hope, you will in your small pond probably have to periodically replace the smart previously caught fish with dumber fish.

If good angling for your son is priority, you should seriously consider stocking hybrid bluegills. They grow fast, bite often and consistently and are well suited for small ponds. Your son will really enjoy catching big hybrid bluegills. Research the topic of hybrid bluegills on this forum. Georgia giant hybrid bluegills, that are a special type of hybrid of bgill, may be another good choice (see Debra King's post below).

Stocking minnows from the ditch or creek is a viable option but after doing this for many years, I highly recommend that you know all the species of fish in the ditch and be able to READILY recognize them well as they are flopping around in a net or your hand. It is much more to it than minnows, shiners, bullheads and sunfish. You can easily introduce unwanted and problematic fish species into your pond which can complicate management. Also wild fish also can introduce external and internal parasites and diseases into your pond. A healthy looking, tolerant fish from the wild is almost always harboring some unseen organism, bacterium and or virus; internally and or externally. When these organisms are released into a confined pond and when stressed fish conditions develop from lack of food or crowding or some other environmental stressor TROUBLE will eventually result. Vulnerable fish get sick first.


Some will recommend that you stock only catfish in a small pond your size. Think about that and research that option. You should also seriously think about and research the previous forum discussions of stocking hybrid striped bass. They can work well in a small pond

Algae and weeds will also be troublesome in a 0.1 acre pond. Be prepared to deal with this problem, especially if you have clear water as you are hoping for.


No easy answers for your small ponds. Your desire for larger sizes of LMbass in these small ponds makes for a difficult management situation if you expect viable, healthy fish populations Everyone will have a different opinion. Do a little more research and stock as you desire. Your ponds are small which can be a positive. You can fairly easily start over when things are not up to your expectations.

That is the good thing about your own pond -- you can do what you want.

In WV I would use regular BG not CNBG -- to far north.

You can use no CC and use LMB instead. You will have to deal with overcrowding of LMB. If you want LMB then I would use one pond for big BG and LMB and use the other to grow out forage FH and small BG to add to the first pond as food for the LMB. Your big problem will be to learn about carrying capacity and be able to watch for and deal with that and to learn about and manage balancing the fish population. Do some searches here for those topics. The best single thing you could do is get a copy from the PB office of Basic Pond Management see link below and order the mag. all the rest you can get here or on line. Second link is to a Miss. Pond Mgt. Book for some basics but they will change some for WV.

http://www.pondboss.com/books.html

http://msucares.com/wildfish/fisheries/farmpond/management/

I just read Bill's post and it brought an option to mind that is recomended by many biologists for small ponds and that is hybrid BG and CC with the idea of a put and take pond. They grow well and make for good fishing .

A crowded LM bass and hybrid bluegill pond is another option for good fishing. Deb from Ken's fish Hatchery may enter this thread later. Keep checking for posts.

Since yo don't want to feed the fish, this adds another important twist to the fishery.

You guys are full of information and very helpful. As I was reading through the threads on here, I saw many people with acre or more ponds but it was hard for me to figure out what a smaller pond does. I may just scrap my plan and see what new plan should be done :-) I probably can find bass that will take pellets I would think somewhere around me. If I artifically fed the pond, like a fish aquarium, then what levels of stocking would be healthy (so I dont have an anmonia or o2 issue). Do you have to feed once per day?

If I did a catfish pond instead, would I just have CC and BG? Is the pond better if I have BG, LMB and CC in the pond? From what I gather, the CC eats the bass and the CC does not spawn so they dont overpopulate right?

gregWV - As you are now probably realizing, There is a lot to proper pond management. There are basic laws of Mother Nature that have to be dealt with. It is importaant to understand those rules or laws. The bigger the pond is the more forgiving it tends to be about those rules; at least it takes longer for a larger pond to "puke".

Don't get dejectd too soon about rasing quality fish in a small pond. We all have a learning curve, and you are just on the beginning of the curve. Everyone is somewhere on that curve.

It may help you to think of a pond in terms of an agricultural crop and/or garden. One can only naturally pasture so many cows, horses, sheep or grazers on an acre of grass or less. The smaller the patch of grass/ground becomes, the fewer animals that it can sustain without getting over grazed and the whole patch of grass becoming a barran area of dirt, that has been over grazed and trampled by too many animals. To then keep those animals relatively healthy and still growing the "farmer" has to suppliment their food by adding feed into the pen with those animals. As the animals reproduce the extra youngsters can soon make the "pen" overcrowded. Overcrowding leads to sickness, and death starts to move through the herd / stock. As in a field or garden the crop needs to be periodically harvested or thinned to keep it growing properly. Mother Nature Rules.

As a responsible pondowner it is your responsibility to the live stock to learn and live by or within the rules.

I refer you again to a Pond Boss article by Bob Lusk our fisheries "hero" and Pond Boss. In the current issue of PBoss magazine (Jan Feb 06) Bob provides a very good informatin filled article about channel catfish. That article answers many of your questions about CC.

You should not get too discouraged because you have two small ponds. There are ways to grow some really nice fish in small ponds.

It just seems everyone on the forum has large ponds. Not true. Some large fish talked about here are grown in small ponds. See posts by Cecil Baird and Bruce Condello who both raise fish in ponds similar to yours.

As for a small pond, see this link for what can be raised in a small 0.12 ac pond (59'x88'). There are some pretty smart fish raising people here.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002265#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002293;p=1#000005

I can not find the picture of Cecil's three small ponds or photos of Bruce's ponds and some fish from his ponds. If you want to see some of Bruce's large bluegills see past Pond Boss article March/April 05 "Building The Perfect Bluegill" pg. 20.

So you can raise some large fish in small ponds, however you may have to do it just a little differently than how they do it in large ponds. This forum site is sort of OVERWHELMING when it comes to sorting through all the information on here. Keep searching, reading and asking questions and you will get a better idea of what to do with your two small ponds. Some of us can help you find something if you are having trouble finding a topic to learn from.

By spring (April or May) decide on a reasonable goal then try it in one of your ponds. Experience is a very good teacher. We can help you along the way. Keep good notes as you go along so we can provide better advice.

As I said earlier, since your ponds are small, you can easily start over if things are not going the way you want them. Those with large ponds do not have this ability to change as quick and as easily as you will be able to do it.

As far as feeding and stocking, from my experience, since you are fairly new at this start with a a normal or just a little above normal density. Feed them, and they will grow. Generally, they will grow better, faster and be healther at a lower density that at a higher or maximum density. The fewer fish you have in there the more forgiving Mother Nature be when you make some mistakes.

Many fish that youuse will probably reproduce and soon you will have too many fish and thinning will be necessary. So don't worry about putting in over the normal amount in the beginning. Over stocking and crowding can be done when you have more experince. It seems to me that since you were not too keen on initially buying fish to stock money may be somewhat of an object. If so, stocking at lower densities will help lessen the "dent" in you wallet. Fewer fish will also mean less fish food to buy to keep them growing.

Small ponds are challenging but, in some ways, less of a challenge than really large ones. A couple of years ago, one Forum member said that he HAD to take about 30 LMB from his lake per month. It became work and time consuming. Lusk writes that a pond is like a garden. It has to be cared for, pruned, and harvested.

A combination of Hybrid Bluegill and Channel Cats, with a feeder, has worked out well for many small pond owners. It has the advantage of being somewhat manageable and still fun.

Read Bill's post above several times. He is 100% correct. I have seen endless amounts of customers who put their entire pond at risk by "ditch fishing" to stock their pond. From skin and gill flukes to bacterial infestations you will be spending more money in the long run trying to "fix" your pond versus stocking it correctly the first time.
Don't get depressed by your situation though. You actually have a set up that could work out quite well (have your cake and eat it too). Let me throw an idea at you:

1. Block the flow through pipe. You can always pump water from one pond to the next if the need arises.
2. Stock 75 CC in one pond and pellet feed. High protein pellet feed is a good way to fatten up your fish, not to mention good therapy for stress after a long day at work. It also is a fun thing for kids to do/see.
3. Stock about 100 hybrid bluegills, 25 hybrid striped bass, 1000 gambusia minnows, a lb of fatheads, and pellet feed in the second pond. As the ponds age you can cull out some really small bream and toss them into the cat pond.
4. When water temps are below 60 degrees, only supplement your feeding every 2-3 days. When temps go over 60 degrees you can feed every day if you wish.

Small ponds are difficult to manage LMB (from my experience). Too often "the big one" gets hook shy, grows to a rather large size, and will take out your original bream stock. Remember that as a predator gets larger, so does his choice in prey. In a LMB pond this size I do not feel you will have the diversity in fish that you want after several years have passed. HSB on the other hand are sterile, small mouthed (only eating babies and leaving your original bream stock capable of growing out), fight hard, and from what I hear they are pretty tasty.

So now you sit back in your chair and think "well what would this plan cost me". Depends on what size you stock.
Plan #1:
1. 100 hybrid bream 1-2" @ .39 each = $39.00
2. 25 hybrid stripes 3-5" @ $2.00 each = $50.00
3. 1000 Gambusia @ .08 each = $80.00
4. 75 CC 4-6" @ .20 each = $15.00
5. 1 lb fatheads ? (someone else would have to tell you this)
Total cost of: $184.00 plus fatheads

Plan #2:
1. 100 hybrid bream 4-5" @ $1.00 each = $100.00
2. 25 hybrid stipes 3-5" @ $2.00 each = $50.00
3. 1000 Gambusia @ .08 each = $80.00
4. 75 CC 8-10" @ $1.00 each = $75.00
5. 1 lb fatheads ?
Total cost of: $305.00 plus fatheads

Plan #3:
1. 100 hybrid bream 7-8" @ $5.00 each =$500.00
2. 25 one lb hybrid stripes @ $5.00 each = $125.00
3. 1000 Gambusia @ .08 each = $80.00
4. 75 one lb CC @ $2.00 each = $150.00
5. 1 lb fatheads ?
Total cost of: $855.00 plus fatheads

Sorry this post is so long, but I wanted to show you how easy (and relatively inexpensive) it would be to stock correctly in the beginning and have years and years of excellent fishing. You are looking at a up front cost of $184.00 - $855.00 (plus fatheads), with about $20.00 per month or less dedicated to pellet feeding thereafter.
It is all about your goals and desires. What is financially realistic to you right now, and what do you want out of the pond? If your goals are for relaxation and fun go for the plan above. I have a 68 year old father (who I fished with for 4 hours yesterday) and a three year old son. Daddy and I discussed draining his pond and stocking it with just the hybrid bream and the HSB because all we caught were LMB and 1 bluegill. The pond has not been restocked in 15 years, and the LMB have taken over (I caught a 7 1/2 pounder and a five pounder on a $-gill , and we caught about 30 yearling LMB). When I went to remove the lure from the 7 1/2 pounder (which he completely swallowed, sorry George), I really took into account the size of his mouth. Any decent sized bream could have easily fit in that hole.

Again I apologize for such a long post, but I REALLY think you have a neat set up. With my suggestion above you can just sit on the bank and cast one way or the other, thus dictating what you will catch from either pond.

Regardless of what you do have fun, and I wish you the best of luck with your adventure.

Deb

gregWV :

You can do this !! Don't be overwhelmed at all the info. There are lots of choices and ways to approach your ponds but they all revolve around the basics as Bill described them.

If you are thinking about HSB as noted you need to check on your water temps and dissolved oxygen (DO) in summer. It is possible to mix and match plans (stock some small fish and some larger fish at the same time to establish your base faster). BG or HBG stocked at 3-5in. in spring will quickly be large enough to catch if you feed them.

Now that you have seen and read the first set of replies. Think about what you want (not types of fish but what type of fishing/recreation experience) and how much time/effort you plan to put into the project. With that refined plan/info we can help you get where you want to go if mother nature will allow it.

Ewest is absolutely right as usual. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed by all the info and suggestions.
I mentioned the HSB above for several reasons (as stated), but if they aren't a fish of choice for you then there ARE other options. Ewest mentioned DO levels and water temps, but HSB also require water hardness levels of 51 ppm or better. Some ponds have it, and some ponds don't. The higher hardness the better for ALL fish (better growth).

Do this: Get a pencil and a piece of paper and write down exactly what you want. What kind of fish do you like to catch? How much money do you want to invest up front? How much time/money do you want to put into the pond in regards to "up keep"? Do you want to drain/restock every 5 years or so, or just let mother nature have a go at it? Make a list of your perceived pros and cons, and then focus on the longer of the two lists. At that point you can fill us in on where you stand, and we will try to guide you correctly.

You guys (implying gals too) are great with making me think about things that I did not think about.

If I wanted one pond that I would feed, could I just place Koi in the pond? Would I also want BG or FH's to be the bream? I would like one of the two ponds for fishing but I do not need to have both of them for fishing...

As noted above, this seems like a good plan that may be easy for me to follow:
Plan #1:
1. 100 hybrid bream 1-2" (bluegills)
2. 25 hybrid stripes 3-5" (bass)
3. 1000 Gambusia (I am unsure if I can use these in WV because they are in the Guppy family and may pose a threat to being released into the creek, which the pond drains into... what do you all think, any chance of harming native creek fish?)
4. 75 CC 4-6"
5. 1 lb fatheads


Here are the goals we have for the ponds. We want them for many non fish reasons such as drawing in wildlife and I may get a pair of Pekin ducks for looks. Next, the goal is a place for the family to spend time at with our English Springers and they love to swim too. Next, I would like to be able to catch fish with a bobber such as BG or other easy to catch fish for my son and visiting nephews. Next, I would like to be able to catch larger fish with a lure so I can go out and cast catching a fish every so often (maybe 10-20 times a year I would fish for larger fish). I could see that it would be fun to catch large catfish too but I would probably only fish for catfish if I had some maybe 4-5 times a year. I fished last year at my uncles pond, which was maybe 50x150 or so in size and all his bass were about 12 inches or so and all of the bluegills we caught were about 6-8 inches or so. Something like this would be fine with me, I caught probably 20 bass in an hour or so.
If I could do one of the ponds for looks and just use Koi and maybe CC, that would be neat too and I could feed once per day usually. Some times, I would have to go several days without feeding since I would not be home but I could find a feeder for them too.
As far as start up cost for fish, I would like to stay under $500 or so. If I could stock and pull out tropical fish like discus and angels, I would but I have never seen them in ponds except in warm places like Florida.

Great now we have some of your goals we can focus on and discuss.

You said - Koi at relatively low densities per acre can cause the pond water to be muddy looking. Koi are ornimental carp and feed by actively and frequently rooting in the sediment for a variety of live and dead plants and animals (mostly invertebrates). I would not want more than 3 adult koi per 0.1 acre. Koi can easily grow to 24" to 30" long after a few years. When theese big fish root in the bottom lots of bottom sediment is stirred up into the water. More than 2 or 3 the water will get progressively more and more turbid and you will not be able to see the fish which is why most people stock them - to see them.

Koi will reproduce so you will need abundant predators to hopefully eat all the offspring. With 3 koi in 0.1 ac, stock 10 to 12 LM bass the same size as the koi. The water should stay fairly clear, water visibility 2 to 4 ft and the bass should keep the young koi to a minimum. I make no guarantees.

If you want relatively clear water in one small pond, just put 8 - 10 small (4"-6") LM bass or smallmouth bass in the pond and basicaly forget it except for plant control. The bass will keep practically all the bugs, frogs, and water critters cleaned up. The bass will only grow to 11"-13" inches long. The bass will usually spawn each year and keep the young eaten up. Occassionaly a couple young bass will survive, especially if weed cover is present. The pond will be basically stable and critter free with as clear of water as surrounding conditions will allow. A couple koi in this situation would be okay, however the water would not be as clear as if no koi were present. In several ponds around me with this bass ONLY stocking, the water clarity is around 4ft to 6 ft deep or more year round. They use some Aquashade dye to help with weed control.
PS.You could also put 4 to 8 channel catfish in the pond with the koi and bass. With those 3 species, and when koi and CC are larger, my guess is water clarity will be about 2ft most of the summer. If the pond becomes weedy then you will have trouble with koi overpopulating. Rooting of Koi may keep weeds to a minimum.

If you don't put any fish in the clear pond it will stay pretty clear but it will have an abundant bug / frog community which is okay with some owners.

You can also raise just fathead minnows or shiners in the one pond and use them to feed the predators in the other pond.

Experiment. You can easily start over.

Choices - choices, many choices and options.

Yea, its the choices that confuse me :-)

I think I may just stock fatheads in both, wait a few months, stock BGs in the one... then 4-5 small bass in the same one. No kois and maybe no CC but if I do CC, I will only do 4-5 of them.

I may put one really large bass in for fun ...

I may also feed the one and if I do it easily, then add more bass. How many bass can it handle if they are fed pellets?

The only fun in that scenerio would be for the LMB as he/she will eat everything else.

Let me try a plan #4:
Pond 1- hybrid bluegill and bass on a one to five ratio (with fatheads and pellet feed)
Pond 2- 10-15 CC with 2-3 koi (pellet feed and Ocean Blue/Aquashade).

Pond 1 costs:
100 bream 3-4 inches @ .50 each
20 bass 3-5 inches @ $2.00 each
Total cost of $90.00 plus fatheads
Pond 2 costs:
10-15 CC 8-10 inches @ $1.00 each
3 Koi 8-10 inches at $15.00 each
Total cost of $55.00 to $60.00 plus
$26.00 for 1 quart of ocean blue that
will last you a year

Three 50 lb bags of pellet feed ($20.00 or less) kept dry should last a year also. SO... total cost (including stocking) over one year should run under $300.00. Not a bad investment for two potentially fruitful ponds, heh. Even better is the fact that should you decide to change goals after 1-2 years, you have not come out-of-pocket a whole heck of a lot. Cody can best answer this, but I believe the cats will do a pretty good job of keeping down the koi spawn (the eggs are delicate anyway).

Greg,

You stated that both ponds are next to each other, connected by a pipe. Could you eliminate the barrier that seperates both ponds thus creating one impoundment? This would give you more options.

I can remove the joining pipe simply by covering the pipe. If I wanted water flow and no fish to move bewteen, a pantyhose material could cover each end. If I wanted to block off all flow, a solid cap could be added to each end.

The impoundment can be removed and the pond would be one big pond. It would be about 50x225 or so. Would this be better?

Hi Greg,

A backhoe could remove the material between the ponds in a couple hours. (Although you might have a tiny island in the middle which might even be desirable) 50x225 would give you a pond larger than a quarter acre. Most states (not sure about West Virginia) will assist pond owners with stocking ponds for free or very inexpensively, *if* the pond is over a quarter acre. Please post an update when you decide what to do.

My pond is small and I am now trying to buy additional property to either enlarge it or build a larger one near by. The littler the pond the larger the limitations list.
If you go with one pond your goals will most likely all be met(EXCEPT FOR THE ONE REALLY BIG BASS) and the fish will grow with your son.