Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Bass heavy pond

I posted a week or so ago about a pond on a property I just purchased. The pond is 3.5 ac and full of small bass. I have yet to see a BG larger than 3 inches in the pond but there are plenty of beds in the shallow pockets.
There is hardly any cover in the pond and my question is should I go heavy on the BG cover for awhile? I know there should be a certain amount of cover that allows the bass to control the BG population but I am trying to increase the number of med size BG.

Also, where are the large BG that I know must be in the pond?

Layne

There may be very few larger BG. That may be evidenced by the small bass( bass heavy). If you cull the bass back to a reasonable number you will be doing both species a favor.

The cover will also protect more small bass from predation from larger bass.

You need to assess the LMB and BG populations. Usually a LMB heavy/crowded pond will have lots of 8-12 inch LMB , a few large BG and very few BG in the 2-4inch size. The small LMB will be in poor condition (not fat).

Removal of crowded LMB is needed if that is the case. You can help the process by adding some adult BG to help with reproduction. Xmas trees near the BG beds (< 40 ft) help survival of offspring. In the proper situation feeding and fertilization can also help.

See this archive thread and its links on stunted LMB ponds - http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92500#Post92500

And this one on population analysis - http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492

I have caught a number of bass and all have been between 6 and 12 inches in size and they are not fat. There are a large number of YOY BG in the pond that hang around the dock and a willow tree that I cut down as well as the entire shoreline.

I just have not seen any BG that are in that 2-4 inch size.
I'd like to catch a few of the BG but was not sure where the larger BG will be holding in a pond this size with no cover.

Thanks for the archive info, I'll do some more reading.

Layne

As Eric noted, you probably have some large bluegill in the pond; a pond overcrowded with bass is the ideal scenario for growing trophy bluegill (when coupled with a good food source for the bluegill either through fertilization or supplemental feeding or both). A couple good places to try fishing for the bigger bluegill would be 1)any flats between two and six feet deep close to deeper water, and 2) the dam of the pond if it has one. Additionally, if there's a bank of the pond that is more overgrown than the others either with grass or trees or both, that could be good due to insects etc. falling into the water. Try using light line, six-pound-test or smaller, with a very small hook (#8 or #10), little or ideally no weight, and the tiniest balsa float you can find set to keep the bait just off the bottom. The bigger bluegill aren't going to hang in a few inches of water like the little ones do. And if your water is clear enough that you can look for fish, the bigger 'gills could be in eight or ten feet of water if not deeper now that the turnover has occurred.

Is your primary goal for the pond big bass or big bluegill? If it's big bass, you'll definitely need to harvest several of those smaller bass, probably at least thirty per acre, before you start seeing significant growth in the bass. If on the other hand your goal is big bluegill, don't harvest any of the bass, install two or three automatic feeders and start feeding two or three times a day with a good quality food like Aquamax, and start a fertilization program next spring.

Cover lessens the ability of the bass to control the bluegill. More cover will help, though, if bass are your priority, because it will allow more bluegill to survive, which in turn gives the bass more forage. If bluegill are the priority, you wouldn't want to add a whole bunch of cover because it could allow the bluegill to increase to the point that their growth slows; but some cover could be good just to concentrate the bluegill and make them easier to locate and thus catch.

Thanks Walt!

I'll check out the dam area and see if I can locate some bigger gills.

My goal is for big bass and that is the reason I was thinking of going heavy on the BG cover until they have a chance to grow.
I've started removing the bass, I just need to get more forage for the bass established.

I've actually caught several small bass while they were schooling on the surface and was wondering what they would be feeding on out in the middle of the pond? Are the YOY BG venturing out over the deeper water?

The links Eric provided were great reading, once I learn my way around the site better hopefully I'll be able to find the answers without bothering you guys with questions previously addressed.

Thanks for the patients!

Layne

Something else you might think about if you want big bass is stocking additional forage species such as threadfin shad and golden shiners; if you want the biggest bass possible I'd stock both. You could also stock crayfish, but make sure not to stock the rusty crayfish as that species burrows.

Where is Eads, TN? I could come take a look at your pond and help you figure out what's in it, come up with a plan, etc.

The rusty crayfish also heavily targets any growing aquatic plants. I know of a lake in Wi. that has a virtual army of rusty crayfish that come out at night and the lake has NO weedbeds since a couple of years after the rusty's were found in the lake. At night as far out as you can see, there is literally 1 rusty per sq. ft. in water up to 6' depth (water clarity limiting the count).

Standing on the pier one night, with a 1/2 oz jig head tipped with a chunk of liver, I caught 200 Rusty's in less than 2 hours sight fishing.

Eads is a suburb of Memphis, it's the home of Bill Dance, he lives just a short distance from me.
Anyway, as for shad, where in this area could they be purchased?
How well do they do in this area in small waters?

As for those that may not know where Memphis is, it's in west Tennessee on the Mississippi and Arkansas boarders.

Layne ask all the questions you want you are not "bothering" us we enjoy being here and we appreciate your interest. The reason for the links is they have been reviewed and probably answer the questions better than us writing a new answer would.

You would be near the northern limit for TShad. They may do great but could be subject to winter kill (to cold) during a hard winter. A 3 acre pond with a good plankton bloom will support TShad assuming good water quality.

If you see Bill tell him PB says hello as he is a big supporter.

Hey Layne, threadfin should be fine in your pond. I'm working presently with a 60-acre lake that's a little above you in latitude and which had them stocked - along with gizzard shad which you wouldn't want to consider until your bass have put on some size - a few years ago, and they did very well and are still in the lake (as are the gizzard).

Southeast Pond Management sells threadfin shad, as well as golden shiners and crayfish; they also sell tilapia which can be another good forage.

Walt, how long ago were the TShad stocked?

Five years ago.

Forgot to mention Layne, SE Pond Mgmt. has an office in Jackson so they're close to you.

Walt, there must be a warm layer somewhere in that lake. As I understand it, you get some pretty cold weather there.

Layne, you might consider siphoning your pond to an acre or less of surface area then applying rotenone to get a complete fish kill. Then you could add structure while the water is down and add fingerling fish in the proper proportions. You might end up better off, faster, than trying to mess around with what is already in there. Just a thought.

I know of several lakes in this area, including one well over an hour north of the one I alluded to previously, that have successfully had TS stocked.

There's no reason to rotenone - not remotely. Not a great suggestion. All he needs to do is harvest some of the bass, which is easily accomplished with a pond of that size (especially smaller bass, which have roughly the IQ of dirt) and stock forage, which is also easily accomplished. He probably already has a few bass that have managed to reach larger sizes, probably has a couple in there that are five or six pounds or better; beyond that, the bass will start to grow faster as soon as their numbers are thinned, and the bluegill will increase in numbers significantly within far less than a year. The bluegill that are already in the pond will have the best spawn they've had in years next spring if he harvests some bass between now and then, and he'll be much further along toward having a strong forage base than he would be starting from scratch.

If he harvests some bass this fall and stocks TS and GSH, he'll have a good number of two-pound and better bass by this time next year, which he wouldn't remotely have if he started over.

Rotenone not only kills fish, but it kills other aquatic organisms all the way down the food chain. I read a study recently in which biologists found that it can sometimes take years for everything from crayfish to invertebrate larvae to rebound in a BOW that's been rotenoned.

One of the lakes I referenced that has had TS do well is a pretty shallow lake, with no water deeper than twelve or fifteen feet. I'm guessing Layne probably has some water that deep in his lake.

Walt it is not uncommon for ponds north of the I-40 corridor to have TShad winter kills about once every 5 years or so. Sometimes only a partial kill but sometimes all. That is a lot of money down the drain if it occurs. We even have them occasionally 100 miles south of that.

Bodock has a valid point to consider all options. I would not suggest it because of the cost. Sometimes it can take years to manage through a LMB crowded pond.

Nashville is 36.16 latitude; Eads is 35.15. That's a pretty significant difference. I don't know if I-40 is the best way to judge whether a species of fish will thrive in a pond, since I-40 goes through both Memphis and Nashville, and obviously one is significantly south of the other. One of the lakes I know of that has had TS do well is in Dickson, which is 36.08, almost identical to Nashville. The bass in that lake are northern-strain, and they average two pounds or better even though they're crowded (I don't manage the lake, would like to but wasn't asked); in one day last summer I lost four of the biggest bass of my life in that lake. And Eads is south of I-40 anyway.

Regarding correcting a bass-crowded lake, I could see how it might take years to do so if the lake were dozens or hundreds of acres; with a 3.5 acre lake I personally feel that the only way it would take years is if ineffective methods were used, i.e. fishermen who aren't skilled doing the harvesting, or not stocking additional forage, or a combination of the two. I would wager a lot of money that I could catch enough bass from Layne's pond in one day, two max, to get it on track. If additional forage were stocked concurrent with or soon after the removal of bass, he could see a significant difference in the average size of the LMB as soon as next summer. Just my $.02.

Of course we sell to the Memphis area and can get you a price on Tshad delivery and other fish if interested. Good luck your area has some outstanding water quality and can prodcue some great yields if stocked and managed properly.

Sorry, Greg, I didn't realize you made it that far over or I would have mentioned you as well.

Greg also sells crayfish, tilapia and GSH, Layne:)

Walt you have to look at each pond as a system. Elevation , water supply (ground water or springs) , potential for high wind , turnover history , plankton status (fertile or not) , temps , depths [thermal refuge] , DOs , etc all play a part in the TShad choice. Cost and risk are also factors to consider. The closer one gets to the edge (in this case lower lethal temp range limits line) the more important each variable becomes and the less room for error and thus the increase in risk.

My I-40 comment is an approximate north-south area range(like your latitudes) but is easier for most to understand.

I note your comment about correcting LMB crowded ponds " the only way it would take years is if ineffective methods were used ". Ineffective methods are very widespread as is misinformation and misjudgment on this subject among most pond owners. No doubt most knowledgeable PB members could do the job correctly provided they did not have an unintended consequences event. Those are very common when trying to balance between the 2 possible unmanaged situations ( BG crowded vs. LMB crowded). The next issue of PB has some thought provoking info on this exact unintended consequence situation.