Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Golden Shiner Groath Rate - New Pond?

In early May of this year I stocked a batch of GSH (fry), and they seemed to do OK up till about 8 weeks ago. They got to about one inch in length and then seemed to stop growing. This is the first season for my new 1.5 acre pond and there are no other fish in the pond to eat them or thin out the population yet, so i'm wondering if they have run out of natural food to eat? The pond has a lot of algae in it but not much else as far as I can see. My stocking plan was to let these minnows get a good start this season and start stocking some LMB, BG, and maybe some YP next spring. Anyone know how fast the GSH should be for this situation? Any thoughts?

It seems to me like not such stong growth for those shiners and you may have hit it with thinking about their feed.

I don't know how much time you have left this year for fish to take feed, but if your water temps are still above 70s or so, you might get some bang.

I'd get some small size fish pellets and throw some out for a few days and see what happens.

I have no experience with GSH growing from fry, but that seems like low growth to me as well.

GSH do take feed extremely well IME.

The GS will not grow after the water temp has dropped below 50 to 55 deg. I sounds like you had a great survival rate on the fry though, and that is how it should be. These fish have also probably maxed out their growing space. When you add preditor fish in the spring you will see the numbers start to decrease, and feeding is an option that will probably only sustain them now if they are out of growing room so that is a personal call on feeding.

At least the fry lived, I put 3 bags of Anderson's fry in my pond last May, saw nothing but dead fry for the next week or so. Don't think any of them lived, not a good investment.

A big key to getting the fry to survive is to make sure their is a good zooplankton bloom occurring in your pond at the same time, otherwise the fry have nothing to eat and starve to death...

Steve. I will be glad to visit with you about the Fry issue. Not to insult your intelegence, but are you sure they were fry that you saw dead. Mosquito larve, dragon fly larve and other insects look a whole lot like fry when they are at that stage. I assume this took place last year, do you see any forage now? Send me a personal message if you want to discuss it.

I sent you an E mail. You can't insult my intelligence I don't have any. When God was passing that out I went fishing.

Steve you sure there aren’t a bunch left ? The concept is that a very high % will not live but the ones that do will grow and reproduce. You would not want all or a high % to live. For example BG reproduce at a high rate (30 to 60 thousand eggs/fry per pair of adults per year). Most of the BG fry/yoy have to die or they will overpopulate the food source (only a very small % survive to adulthood < 3 %). They either starve to death or are eaten. That is what you are trying to replicate with GShiner fry. The goal is to establish a sustainable viable population of reproducing adults. If a large % of the fry survive it is unlikely the goal will be met.

I'm going to check it out in a few weeks or so and see what I have in terms of bass food. I know it doesn't mean much but since last fall, the only thing I've seen in the shallows are FH, actually since mid summer.

A good idea. I have learned based on past mistakes that many times my initial observations about no or little fish survival were wrong. Just a couple weeks ago we ( both Pros and non-pros) discussed if all the TShad in several locations were winter killed. Several thought in their particular circumstance that they were dead based on observation. Later the answer turned out to be they survived. Its always good to know for sure what is there before new fish are stocked.

How exactly are you going to determine for sure the shiners made it? Actually that might be easier than proving they did not.

If they made it, I should be finding small shiners, maybe 2-3 inch range ? I did put some adults in last summer, so those will be larger. If I was to bet on it, I'd be betting I won't find many shiners at all, small or large. As far as method, I'm planning on using a net.

If you seine it that would remove all doubt. I am very interested Steve, very interested.

I determine the condition of my forage base not only with pellet feeding but also by employing a dozen minnow traps set along the edges of my pond. I bait them with bread or pellets - but they will capture plenty of forage without any bait also. I routinely sample various sizes of tadpoles, FHM and GSH - the latter up to 4 - 5", and if I'm lucky I'll even score a crawfish or some PK Shrimp. This is an easy and immediate way to determine the condition of your forage base if you lack a seine and a buddy to help you [like me].

Couple of tips for using minnow traps: Keep them in 1-2' of water, resist the urge to go deeper, IMO catches are exponentially smaller. Also, don't allow them to sit for several days - 24-48 hrs max or many of your precious critters will die. It's interesting to note my tadpoles begin consuming the minnow casualties and there are several half eaten if I leave the trap for longer than 48 hrs. Definitely on the tadpoles menu!

SK

Take heart - GSH and FHM look awfully similar from the top view - although IME GSH do tend to be a more open water schooling fish. I sure hope your GSH made it - Anderson's is a great company and it sounds like you could use some good news on your KC pond. [Isnt' this the one in an urban area and you're fighting major nutrient issues?] If you have any shallow, grassy areas that provide protection from predation you SHOULD have GSH established...

If you don't have any luck with the minnow traps or seining, let me know. Shawn Banks and Rex Rains service your area and could bring a few lbs of mature shiners to do their thing - I know their prices are very reasonable and they are good guys. Heck, I owe Shawn a visit this Spring - I'll even drive down some of my adult GSH if you want, and some CSBG to sweeten the deal. All I want is for your pond to be successful, and if I may be so bold, a diet pepsi too?

Yessir, I have some ponds that just don't lend themselves to netting. The minnow traps get used. I will even place them at different levels in different areas and get different results. I try to check them every 24. And I use different baits. Can of ol roy or any crappy dog food with a bunch of holes punched in it always does the trick. For bread I try to use hardened stuff like old stale breadsticks or hardened heels so it lasts a bit longer. Sometime I'll use a nasty chunk of spoiled meat, a fishhead with entrails hanging out. The more meat, the more crawdads, the more bread, the more minnows. Big fish pellets in cheesecloth wrap really will bring in little fish. And polliwogs are eating machines. I raise bullfrog polliwogs and mine are way, way bigger than the ones that retail at the stores for $2-3 a pop, because mine are pelletized. Very good way to do an inexact but broad forage survey. I can't agree with fhm looking like shiners though. Not after they get a couple of inches. They just look, move, and act way different. Tough to tell fhm from gambusia, but the gambusia tend to stay near the surface.

PF - identification point taken...of course FHM and GSH differences are apparent to YOU...and other seasoned pond owners [now to me...little more learning every day] but to a new pond owner and someone learning forage behavior they certainly both have dark upper halves and are shaped similarly which can lead to confusion, at least, if you know what I mean. Of course once one views the entire body the brilliant silver and mouth of the GSH give it away. I've also noticed they move faster and react immediately to any event [like a footstep or shadow] than a FHM. They just seem far more aware of their surroundings while FHM aimlessly float along like they are just leaving a bar in Amsterdam. I guess the impetus for my statement is that I'm holding out hope for the Anderson's/SK relationship here that perhaps SK IS indeed seeing GSH in the shallows along with FHM...?

I guess after looking at them for 45+ years, you get a bit of an edge. Shiners are a bit more streamlined from the top. And scales are a big tell if you get close enough. They tend to glisten in sunlight from above. Gambusia and fhm are drab. But the behavior is the giveaway. Shiners are fast movers, they just dart and move fast, even if nothing is bothering them. Gambusia will stay on top, jump out of the water. FHM roll a lot when feeding, showing thier sides. And those males to get the big heads at spawn time. They swim erratically a lot, like they are stoned. And once that baitfish gets over 4 inches, very little doubt what it is. Some people say certain species school or don't school. That I really do not beleive. I've seen all of them school, or not. I actually have all three species in an aquarium in my living room just to observe thier behavior. The meanest fish pound for pound is the gambusia. But like you said, I have been doing this forever, point taken.

TJ - " and if I may be so bold, a diet pepsi too? "

yeah, right...

What...Diet Pepsi is an excellent foundation for a strong cocktail

Why would anyone pollute good whiskey with anything but water?

Dave must be a scotch man...i'm lik'in you better all the time.

Good scotch is a pleasure. However, on the occasions that I cozy up to whiskey, it's usually Jack Daniels Black. Sorta like the old name of bourbon and branch. Sometimes I forgo the branch part.

I'm essentially a Budweiser and really expensive tequila fan. I love really good margueritas. Cheap tequila tastes like turpentine. My last trip to the liquor store got me a pint of tequila that cost me $67.00. At that price, you gotta ration it and hide it when your son in law comes into town.

However, when it gets cold outside I like De Kuypers Apricot Brandy. Take a sip of that stuff and you can feel the warmth spreading through your body. If you're not careful, you'll get so warm that you can fall of deer stands and bass boats.

I don't like vodka in any form. I recently mentioned that to a friend. He was doing a consulting gig in Russia and brought me a bottle of the best, most expensive Russian stuff. It was unobtainable in the US at any price. He told me to put it in the freezer for a couple of days and sip it straight. Ok, I tried and then returned it to him. It brought back 50 year old memories of projectile vomiting in a friends brand new Ford convertible. As I recall, my girlfriend broke up with me after that deal. I thought that was kinda narrow minded at the time.

Dave "It brought back 50 year old memories of projectile vomiting in a friends brand new Ford convertible."

That gave me a godo laugh this am. I feel the same way if I see or smell yager.

HIJACKED!! Randy started it but it's mostly TJ's fault.

Ok - I'll take one for the team...THIS time.

Jim Beam is my worst memory. I cant smell it without smelling the aroma of puke in it also.

I was in a teck class in Italy years ago with a bunch of Euro's. They informed me that "whiskey is Scotch; bourban is just that".
Of course, they drank all sorts of other weird liquids, campari, uzo, bols, etc. Being in the 6th fleet for 6 yrs. and 35 yrs. working on ships, I must confess, I have tried them all.
Jack and 7/club soda suits me just fine. Wish I'd had some apricot brandy last night..............for medicinal purposes.

My older brother lead me astray before I was legal, of course, then in Miss. nothing was legal. We stopped at a graveyard to relieve ourselves and for me to throw up.
My brother got down and looked real close at the stuff. I said what are you doing? He said 'looking for your A. H." Laughing while puking really hurts.

I don't touch clear liquors anymore and have an instant gag reflex when I smell anything alcoholic and cinnamon. Love me some Chivas Regal though. And I'm a microbrew guy as far as beer goes, but in the summer I like some of the more refreshing domestics.

Dave, LOL! Being a recon scout in the army i remember many nights praying to the porcelain gods. It took nights like those for me to realize the merrits of a single highland malt v's lots of cheep rot gut. I'll drop a benjamin on a bottle any day of the week before getting something thats on sale. It also taught me to only go through 2-3 bottles a year, cant afford to chug expensive stuff (lol).

Add a generous portion of Captain Morgan's Spiced Rum, a splash of grenadine pour over ice and walla - JHAP is happy. (The degree of happiness is directly proportional to the percentage of rum contained withing this delectable beverage).

Oh and TJ, stop hijacking threads.

yeah TJ......

"Oh and TJ, stop hijacking threads."

That drives me crazy.

Taking ANOTHER one for the team? Jeesh - when I see you guys in April 2011 I'm gonna...

Thought I accidentally staggered into an AA meeting, great job guys. I am going to go with all adult triple threat minnow pond. Gambusia, fhm and gsh. I wish I could get some chubs or chubsuckers for the bottom but I think all of these will hang in different areas. I'm going to give them through the Spring, maybe three months, then FLA LMB join the party. So they have three months to grow and breed.

I like your forage decisions...I love Creek Chubs but they need running water in order to spawn IIRC...might serve as a one time meal? Thoughts?

I think chubsuckers can go into a lake, and I need reproducers. My goal is to have ongoing forage, hopefully the adult fish will last. In a sense this is an experiment on competing forage minnow species and long term sustainability. This is an extremely fertile pond, overloaded with crawdads. Seasonal inflows, heavy at times. Very little drawdown. I am also going to try to establish a gsh only pond.

Chubsuckers reportedly will do well reproducing in a pond setting...from what I've read here at least seems to reinforce that. I really like your forage experiments - the research is something everyone can benefit from here. GSH are a nice cash crop too - I've seen some ridiculous prices throughout the country...can you imagine having a .5 acre pond dedicated to GSH reproduction only? How many pounds could someone raise annually?

Creek chubs will do just fine in ponds... They just can't reproduce and often become snacks for bass. When I was in my teens and didn't know any better. I used to supplementally feed bass by catching wild minnows from the local creek. There were often creek chubs mixed in. I am sure most because bass food rather fast. But on several occasions while fishing for sunfish, I'd hook an overgrown 10" plus creek chub in the ponds. Obviously if they didn't get eaten, they did quit well.

I've had forage ponds in the past with multiple species in them, and all did fairly well. You won't put out the poundage of each species you would in a monoculture pond, but usually if the species are all adapted to pond life they do OK. My forage pond right now has 6 species in it.