Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Advise on when to stock and what to stock.

Hi You all,
Well, I am here in NW Indiana, bought 11 acres, built a house and started digging a 1 acre pond this summer. The property is about 400 wide and 1100 deep. The land slopes down to the lowest point at the far end of the property. (I will try to post some pictures). Originally I dug a test hole and it filled with water overnight. Then I stripped off about a foot of top soil and then I found that I have about 3 1/2 feet of clay then sand. The water level maintains just under the clay level so I guess I am in the water table aquifer. The water only dropped 6 in. during the summer drought.

I am about one third done digging. At the place we startyed to dig we went down about 14 feet. Now we are starting to slope the bottom up and shallower because at the other end of the pond I want to have it shallower for the grandkids, beach area, pier, etc.

My first question is, can I stock it before it is completely dug? I have read, I think in THE Pond Boss, that it can be stocked when there is enough water to support the fish but I may not get it completed yet this fall. Will the fish scatter when the digging begins and stay away or will I have fish flopping on the ground? I will stock with Bluegill, Red Ear, Catfish, and probably Large Mouth.

Next question...I am debating about hybrid bluegill vs. regular gills. Again I read, I think in Pond Boss, that as long as I have bass as predators, then one should stock regular gills. That they will be every bit as good as hybrids and won't have to be restocked like hybrids will. Also I think it said after a few generations of hybrids, I would have a lot of green sunfish because of inbreeding??? Looks like I am out of room..Thanks John

Here's the deal. Hybrids breed only once a year and it takes the reproductive capacity of common BG to produce ongoing protein for LMB and catfish. There's nothing wrong with hybrids. They just can't support a predator base. Nor is there anything wrong with the "dreaded" green sunfish. They generally disappear over time due to their low reproductive rate. To the mix, I would add fathead minnows with the initial forage and catfish stocking.

I don't think that I would stock and then keep digging. The stirred up mud and junk will wreck the phytoplankton base that the fish need. I think that you will have a healthier population by waiting. Others might disagree. Other opinions on this?

A pic would help. FH can withstand some bad conditions. You can stock with limited water but ice may be a concern. You will need some depth below the ice to support the fish. You could feed the FH with pellets or catfish food. I would not stock the other fish yet but would sure stock a few FH as the cost is low.

Hi John1944 and welcome to Pond Boss. I'll leave the answers for the experts.

The biggest drawback to hybrid bluegill is that only the stocker generation has the good genetic potential; as you seem to have already discovered, their offspring are genetically inferior, which means they get a fraction as large as their parents, and a fraction as large as common bluegill would. So if you want large bluegill and don't want to have to re-stock regularly, you should stock regular bluegill. Also, a very relevant point is that more than one study has found that pure-strain bluegill grow larger under ideal conditions than hybrids; the hybrids just grow faster initially. Especially if you feed pellet food regularly, you can get pure-strain bluegill as large or larger than hybrids, and you won't have to bother with regular re-stocking. I've never seen a picture of a hybrid bluegill over three pounds, but several state records that were pure-strain northern bluegill eclipse that mark.

One thing you can do to improve the average size of the bluegill is to get some that have been selectively bred for optimum genetics. Bruce Condello on here has a sub-strain he's been breeding for ten years and he's grown them to two pounds more than once, so you might try him.

Are bluegill your primary focus? If so, don't keep any bass; this will allow them to overpopulate, and they'll keep the bluegill well-thinned such that the bluegill that survive have all they want to eat and grow several times faster than if the bluegill were crowded. Install one or two automatic feeders and set them to feed two or three times a day, and before you know it you'll have some hawgs.

I would make that "don't keep any bass small enough to target the BG sizes you want them to thin", keeping in mind the fact that LMB prefer BG 1/3 to 1/4 their own length.

Not keeping any bass at all has worked the best for me when managing for trophy bluegill. Just my experience.

No argument. Different opinions.

John1944
Welcome aboard glad to have you.

Thanks to all of you for your welcome and advice. I have been reading Pond Boss for about 2 years in anticipation of digging this pond. I just discovered this forum recently otherwise I would have gotten on long ago. Sounds like I should not stock any fish until I am done digging. So, "IF" I finish digging it before winter sets in, should I go ahead and stock it then or will I be better off to wait until spring? Besides not getting any younger (65), I want to get as much growing time as I can get. I want to have both gills and LMB but I want to have good sized gills. If I can finish digging this fall, should I stock with gills, readear, and catfish this fall and then follow up in spring with LMB. Does this sound like a good plan?? Also, what size of fish should I try to get for the initial stocking. I also should mention that I will be feeding them once the water warms in the spring. Already have an automatic feeder. For one acre, what do you folks recommend as the proper numbers of each to put in? This forum is really great. Thanks again for the help and welcomes............You all are the best.

I'm confused on this thread.

I thought for trophy bluebill you wanted a crowded bass population. What really has me confused is how can keeping NO bass control overpopulation????? Do you mean do not harvest any bass caught? If so, I think I would want to harvest a lunker that could snack on a huge gill.

Stocking Fathead minnows early is a good idea. I'd wait till after the digging on the rest although it probably will make little difference as long as your water is deep enough (6-8'?)for them to survive the winter.

It's generally recommended in northern states such as yours to stock bass simultaneously with the bluegill, or even before, to avoid overpopulation by the bluegill. Probably this late in the year the bluegill wouldn't spawn, but you never know with bluegill as they spawn several times a year. If you were going for big bass, you could stock the bluegill ahead of the bass; but since big bluegill are your primary goal, I would stock them simultaneously. You won't do much good by stocking the LMB/BG while the water is muddy, as they aren't going to thrive in those conditions. But as already noted, you could go ahead and stock the FHM. Another thing you could do now is to stock grass shrimp, which are a preferred forage of bluegill; TJ on here regularly coordinates orders from a hatchery in NE that sells a strain that does well in northern climes:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post178742

Also, you'll want to stock lower numbers of bluegill than you would if you were going for big bass. I would stock 250 bluegill, 50 shellcracker, and 150 LMB if stocking fingerlings; if you stock larger fish, 3-4" or better, which would be a great idea if you're wanting to expedite the process, I would go with even lower numbers: 150 bluegill, 25 shellcracker, and 100 bass. As far as size, you can stock the largest fish a hatchery will deliver to you; don't stock wild fish because they're more likely to have diseases, they'll suffer some degree of mortality from catching, they're less likely to bite again after being hooked once, etc.

If bluegill are the priority, skip the catfish - they'll wreak havoc with your feeding program, and within a year will keep the bluegill from getting much of the food; a decent-sized catfish will literally knock bluegill out of the way with a slap of its tail so it can hog the pellets. And they quickly become hook-shy more than bass or any other fish in the pond. There are many, many threads on here that recount various pond owners' frustration with catfish.

Rainman, to answer your question, you could keep a lunker, but before a pond becomes overpopulated with bass, it's going to go through at least a brief period during which the bass are balanced (unless they're stocked heavy, like I've recommended above), and at that stage, every bass removed is a whole bunch of bluegill that don't get eaten, and beyond that, that bass removed is going to keep the remaining bass in the pond healthier such that more of them will reach a large size such that if that's the criterion the pond owner is using for harvesting, he'll still be keeping bass...and then before you know it the pond is fished down for bass and the bluegill are overpopulated. I know that a lot of pond managers on here commonly see ponds with overpopulated bass, but where I live it's still more common to come across a pond from which too many bass have been kept and the bluegill are badly stunted. Lastly, a lunker bass is probably not going to be an issue in a pond overcrowded with LMB, as they don't often reach lunker sizes in such a pond.

When I'm managing a pond for big bluegill, I want the bass as numerous as the bluegill because I know that the bluegill are going to average close to a pound apiece.

Walt, you are a treasure trove of information and I thank you for your time. So, to recap for the "old guy". If I get this pond dug yet this fall (before Ice In) I should go ahead and stock it with the gills, crackers, and bass, all at the same time. I can expedite the process by using larger fish of 3-4". Is this for both bass and the gills? Come spring when the water warms, I will be feeding them and I already have the automatic feeder. I will skip the catfish. I always had heard or was told they should be added but I am NOT a catfish fan....Saved me a couple bucks there! I will be trying to get some structure in there ASAP after the digging is done.
Can anyone out there suggest a source for quality gills and LMB that will deliver or is close to NW Indiana for pickup? Most of the ones I find on google don't seem to come here or deliver here.
Can't think of any more questions right now but will be back when I do.... Thanks to everyone for all the helpful info... John

Just thought of another question... (The memory is one of the problems with getting old) When I purchase the LMB, is it necessary that they be pellet trained? Seems like they are harder to find. Thanks. John

John1944, when would you need your fish? I will be very near you in the next couple weeks. If you already have water, you'll be fine with stocking the smaller sizes.

I'll PM you. Just click on the blinking envelope at the top of the page.

Yes John, you can get a head start by stocking larger fish. You should be able to get 3-5" bluegill no problem, and probably should be able to get 4-6" LMB, though 2-4" would also be okay. If you get the pond at least 1/3 full this fall, you could stock now.

Rainman would be a good source. You should look into getting some of Bruce Condello's bluegill if he has any available; he breeds them for optimum genetics and has grown regular northern-strain bluegill over two pounds multiple times. Rainman might be able to pick them up for you, or Bruce might also be able to ship them.

Glad I saved you trouble on the catfish, especially if you don't care for them anyway. Keep us posted on your progress!

Here are a couple hatcheries you could try:

http://www.loganhollow.com/species.html

This one has free delivery to IN:

http://jonesfish.com/categories/2/1/-img-src-images-buttons-fish-stocking-jpg-border-0-.htm

OK, give me a hand here. Assuming that digging is complete, a planktonic base is established and yet it is going to get cold, in Indiana that might mean really cold. What would be the advantage of stocking at that time of predators and prey? Other than some possible seasonal bargains from hatcheries, I don't understand the benefit of this strategy.

I did not review the plan above so only addressing stocking some forage now (FH and some BG in several sizes). Many people don't consider the problem of availability. Often the fish you want are not available when you need them. A passing deadline can cause huge delays. A bird in the hand vs. 2 in the bush is apt.

Assuming enough water I would stock the FH and BG provided I knew I could find the LMB at the right time. Fish which have been in a location for a while (several mths) IMO spawn and grow better than those stocked just in time assuming food etc. I am not sure I would try an entire size stocking (all sizes of prey and predators in an attempt to establish a complete fishery) going into winter. That could be a big risk of a lot of $ and may well not work.

Not sure I would stock BG but I just might stock some of them. I would absolutely stock FH as soon as the planktonic base is there.

John is wanting a big bluegill pond, which is why he would want to stock the bass simultaneously with the bluegill, so the bluegill have less chance of overpopulating per the standard recommendations for northern ponds. The idea behind stocking the fish now as opposed to next spring is simply to get them in the water sooner so they have time to be growing.

I would agree that if he can't get the fish before it turns cold, it would be better to wait until next spring. But if he's able to get fish now, as Eric mentioned, fish aren't always available immediately when one wants them.

John, you might just ask the hatchery at what date they typically stop delivering fish for the winter. If they commonly deliver the first part of October without significant mortality problems, and have fish available now, I would say go ahead. I definitely wouldn't stock bluegill ahead of bass since big bluegill are the priority.

Ok im just gonna give you what I know about green sunfish. One of my friends has a pond on a big hunting ranch in south texas and we fish there alot. Pond is about 5 acers very clear and was stocked with bluegill blue cats and LM bass, but greens found there way in there. So now there is greens blue gill and there cross and some very big ones at that, but the bass are tiny and very under feed but the sunfish fishing is very good. You can catch hundreds a day but if i had control of it I would start over! Most fish in the pond arnt big enough for the pan other than the blue cats which are over 20lbs now. If your wanting great perch jerking I would go with coppernose BG which get real big and are a blast to catch.

John1944:

A belated welcome from another hoosier! What city (town) are you close to?

Coppernose bluegill won't survive winters that far north. John, if Bruce doesn't have any bluegill he can sell at present, another place you could try for exceptional bluegill genetics is the Jim Frey hatchery in northern Iowa. He specializes in big bluegill and has grown them to 2.25 pounds.