Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Creating habitat Mo' Bettah Bed Pix from SMB repro pond

Nice!!!

I think 48 smallies in a 1/3 ac pond are too many. They will quickly over eat the food source unless you are using BG or another similar forage speices that requires a stronger predatory pressure. To keep smallies growing fast it is best to always have ample food available (for more info on this see Nov-Dec09 PBoss mag). If you are not using BG I suggest you reduce the total stocked initially to 20-30 which equates to 60-90 per acre. IMO if you are looking to grow trophy smallies and getting them big fairly fast, 90/ac is still a little on the high density side of numbers. Your first SMB spawn will result in capacity smallies for this pond. Greg Grimes had a very good presentation at the PB III Convention about this topic: "Stocking 10X Forage and Low density LMB". IMO His principles also apply to smallies.

Appreciate the info, Bill. My goal for this pond is to actually raise SMB, seine them out in Autumn, and provide them commercially. I'd like to then release the adults back into the reproduction pond for spawning the next year. Unfortunately, I JUST read Bob Lusk's article from a back issue [Nov/Dec 2005] "Hatchery Ponds: Tips how to decide to use small ponds for fish production", and I wish I would have come across this a long time ago.

Any suggestions on the number of adult SMB I should stock in this pond, considering my goal is reproduction? I realize my approach might be far oversimplified at this point, but there's still time to make corrections. Assuming I'll pull off a spawn next Spring, should I be concerned my adult SMB will eradicate the YOY before I have a chance to seine them in the Autumn? I'm open and grateful for any advice.

An idea. Go ahead as is assuming the SMB will be able to spawn this spring , plan to stock plenty of FH . Once the new yoy SMB reach swim-up size plus about one week then start reducing the adult SMB #s and move them to another pond.

Check on blocking nets here as they have been use with good results even on SMB growout attempts.

Dang you are more than just a pretty face, this looks, feels and smells like a Schedule F to me, but no doubt you already are quite aware of that.

Assuming I have 20 adult SMB in the Spring

1. they pull off a spawn
2. I fish or seine to remove the adult fish ASAP and move them to another pond
3. Leave the fry to grow unmolested

Is this your suggestion? Let's face it, that's the perfect scenario, one that might be unlikely for me because...well, I'm me.

This might me more realistic:

20 adult SMB

1. pull off a spawn
2. I don't successfully remove many, if any, adult SMB
3. Adult SMB will hammer my YOY to extirpation even with a very high population of GSH and FHM present

Does that sound about right? Without adult SMB removal will do I stand little chance of raising fish?

I already wrote off a ton of expenses related to a hatchery business this year...I'm going to have some splaining to do if I don't successfully raise and sell a few fish next year...

I believe you can offset any other income with a schedule F loss for one more year. IIRC if the activity is unprofitable 2 out of 3 years it will be considered a hobby. (maybe 3 of 5 but I dont think there is a definite rule). After 3 years if overall (cumulative) you have a profit you should be fine.

this is only the second time I've smiled today. thanks - seriously, that takes a weight off my shoulders.

So...JHAP, how many Nebraska bullfrog tadpoles can I put you down for next year? I'm also expecting a bumper crop of dirt clods...FREE SHIPPING

How in the dickens do you ship bullfrog tadpoles?

Very carefully.

I'm all full up on bullfrog tadpoles. Depending upon the price, I might be interested in the dirt clods though.

Not certain, but from the sound of things I might not have any SMB to ship, so I'm checking my inventory for things I have handy.

The IRS has an audit guide, Market Segment Specialization Program IRC Section 183, that is specifically aimed at Cattle and Horse Operations but I believe that a similar test would occur in a fish breeding operation.

This guide instructs auditors that "if an activity’s gross income exceeds attributable deductions [in other words has as profit] for 3 or more of the taxable years in a period of 5 consecutive taxable years, then the activity is presumed to be engaged in for profit, regardless of whether the activity is engaged in for profit. Unforeseen or fortuitous circumstances can impact profitability and should be considered."

So if profit is made during any 3 years of a 5 consecutive year period (in other words the 5 years are consective not the 3 years) then your activity will be deemed to be engaged in for profit and the hobby loss rules will not apply. The unforseen circumstances rules can also circumvent the hobbly loss rules if for example you had a fish kill, etc.

Note:
The guide I mentioned above is specifically geared toward Horse and Cattle Operations. That being said for anyone that is involved in these types of operations or operations in which a similar farm activity is involved, the publication is an interesting resource. This guide is aimed more at taxpayers that that have an additional primary source of income (for example are employed full time) and the farm is a secondary source of income. This guide is available for download here to anyone that is interested.

And of course the disclaimer...
The information provided above is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as, nor relied upon as tax advice. Check with your tax preparer or your next door neighbor to see if the information discussed above applies to your specific situation. JHAP is NOT an expert in tax law as it relates to farm schedules so don't ask him any questions about either (1) tax law as it relates to a farm, or (2) farm law as it relates to taxes. JHAP grew up in the city and therefore doesn't know a lot about farms, he did regularly watch Green Acres as a child so he could probably differentiate between a goat and a sheep but don't rely on it. Tax code is available freely over the internet however prolonged exposure to tax code can cause nausea, projectile vomiting and overall discomfort, displeasure, disassociation, disbelief, discontent, disharmony, disheveling, disgust, disloyalty, disobediance, disquietude and many other words that start with dis. Four out of five doctors recommend avoiding any prolonged exposure to Internal Revenue Code while three of seven dentists actually enjoy reading tax code. This makes sense when you think about it because most folks don't like visits with either their tax preparer or their dentist. JHAP is a CPA that is licensed to practice in the State of California even though he resides in a perpetual State of Denial. JHAP will continue to practice until he gets better at it. The opinions expressed by JHAP are not necessarily those of Pond Boss's management, moderators, advertisers, members at large, members at small, or even medium sized members.

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TJ, don't you have a lawn to mow? Perhaps some PVC to patch?

Dude, you're a comic genius...I spit out my diet pepsi reading this. Keyboard is sticky - but it was worth it.

Could you create some kind of a net system that can be moved across the pond in such a way as to corral the bigger fish.

You could keep the adults in a percentage of the pond, observe spawning, and at the right time, move the net, moving the adults off of the yoy and into another portion of the pond.

It might be a way to maximize the amount of yoy that make it to sellable size.

You're no slouch yourself, oh and sign me up for 12, no better make that 14 cases of Hudson Dirt Clods.

What the hell was this thread about anyway?

That is a blocking net MB. TJ even if you don't move most of the adults out IMO you will have some baby SMB survive. TJ you will need a net/seine and you can protect a bunch with it. See blocking net threads.

Eric,
didn't you do a PB article on blocking nets a couple of years ago?

I have the back issues and do have that article for reference. It's a very complete account of how to. Thanks for reminding me.

I have a narrow creek arm in my main pond perfectly suited for this, or I could try to isolate as many fry as possible in the repro pond and keep the adults blocked. Seems to make more sense to try and catch the adults and pen them...but who know how well that will work.

I do think keeping the numbers of adult SMB low is important. I might add another 6 or so to try and ensure I have good F - M ratios...that would bring me to a total of 14 adult fish. Not too many to try and catch.

One more thing I have going for me is the high number of FHM and GSH in the pond...I'm hopeful they might relieve some of the cannibalistic predation on the YOY SMB.

?

Several thoughts. To run a fishery you have to have a 1/4 inch seine. Bruce has one to lend. He has a thread on buying a seine.

See Shorty's thread on growing out SMB via a blocking net.

You can buy rigid plastic fencing/netting and make a pen ( 3 sided with the bank being the 4th side) . It comes in all sizes and heights. You can put it in place easy with small D rings or cable ties and a few small posts (like vegetable plant stakes). About 2 weeks after swim-up (SMB yoy about 2 inches) seine them up using a 1/4 inch seine and move them to the pen. Start feeding them . When they get to size and you sell them remove the pen until next time.

This has been saved for future reference. Thanks Eric...again.

Wow, I'm catching this thread late. That is a great looking BOW you have there TJ and an exciting project up ahead for you. Very cool.