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#182145 09/05/09 07:48 PM
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Last year I stocked the pond with bluegill and largemouth. Today I caught a larger bluegill for the first time. I was surprised by is markings. Is it a bluegill or pumpkinseed?



RobA #182146 09/05/09 07:52 PM
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Definitely a pumpkinseed


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Bob Lusk #182147 09/05/09 07:58 PM
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Hmmmm. Not what I ordered from the hatchery. Is a PS/LMB pond much different from a BG/LMB pond?

RobA #182148 09/05/09 08:03 PM
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Yep...but just because you caught a pumpkinseed doesn't mean you don't have a bass/bluegill pond.
Bluegill will spawn a couple of times yearly in SE PA, and Pumpkinseeds will spawn once. BG will throw more food into the food chain. Look at your pumpkinseeds as an added bonus. No threat to your fishery.


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Bob Lusk #182149 09/05/09 08:07 PM
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Thank you. I'm all for added bonuses. I learn something new every day - especially here.

RobA #182150 09/05/09 08:18 PM
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If it's a pure pumpkinseed where's the red on the ear tab? I could only hope to be at Bob's level of knowledge but the black scale tips and lack of a red ear tab point to a bg X ps hybrid for me.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/05/09 08:45 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #182157 09/05/09 08:41 PM
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BG/PS/LMB ponds are common up north.
















ewest #182159 09/05/09 08:43 PM
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 Originally Posted By: ewest
BG/PS/LMB ponds are common up north.


Absolutely although in my area it's hard to find heavy concentration of punkies with bluegills. They are an incidental catch.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/05/09 08:43 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #182162 09/05/09 08:55 PM
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He stocked his pond only a year ago. I would say a cross is not logical. The fish haven't had time to grow up, mature and then spawn to create a hybrid that could be this size. If this is a hybrid, it had to come from the hatchery and stocked as a 3-4 inch fish. Mouth size and all other markings suggest pumpkinseed to me. I agree, the gill tab should have some red, but I have seen much stranger things.
Just for clarity...I have been known to be wrong way too much to suit my ego.
I just can't see how it could be anything but.
My guess is that this fish was common to the watershed and has grown to its size. I would just enjoy it and not worry about it. It's not a big deal.


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Bob Lusk #182187 09/06/09 03:07 AM
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I have seen many PS without red on their ear tabs. It's just a genetic anomaly.

I have fished plenty a ponds that have BG/PS/LMB and they produce quality fisheries. PS aren't the northern equivalent to RES as Dr. Willis has written, but they are not harmful IMO.

Bob Lusk #182190 09/06/09 07:21 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
He stocked his pond only a year ago. I would say a cross is not logical.The fish haven't had time to grow up, mature and then spawn to create a hybrid that could be this size. If this is a hybrid, it had to come from the hatchery and stocked as a 3-4 inch fish.



That's my contention -- that it came from the source whatever that was -- already a hybrid. I think we know that is entirely possible due to human error at a hatchery, not eradicating a species completely from the previous year in the production pond, or the flooding of two adjacent ponds etc.


 Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
Mouth size and all other markings suggest pumpkinseed to me. I agree, the gill tab should have some red, but I have seen much stranger things.


Correct me if I'm wrong but don't hybrids end up resembling their parents in different degrees not necessarily a 50/50 mix? I.e. with a ps X bg hybrid some would be closer to a ps and some would be resemble more a bg? Why couldn't some of the offspring look more like a ps with mouth size and markings?



 Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
My guess is that this fish was common to the watershed and has grown to its size. I would just enjoy it and not worry about it. It's not a big deal.


My point has nothing to do with worrying about it or making it a big deal. I just don't see it as a pure pumpkinseed whatever the origin.

Let's just agree to disagree. I do enjoy the debate and don't question your expertise one bit.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






CJBS2003 #182191 09/06/09 07:22 AM
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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I have seen many PS without red on their ear tabs. It's just a genetic anomaly.


How can you be sure they were not hybrids? Did you do a DNA test?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #182205 09/06/09 09:17 AM
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After studying that photo much more closely than the quick look yesterday, I do see several characteristics that suggest Cecil may be right. I don't buy into the lack of red on the ear flap as a solitary reason that fish is a hybrid, but I do see a couple of other things that suggest it could be, in addition to the ear flap. The pelvic fins are darker than they should be. So is the anal fin. I've worked with and handled my fair share of pumpkinseeds and most (heavy on the word 'most)have yellowish pelvic and anal fins. So, with this single, solitary photographic example of one fish out of gazillions...we may be looking at a hybrid (heavy on the word 'may').
The follow up question is "So what?"
Cecil did spur deeper thinking on my part than just the obvious. I presume, when you say you bought fish from a hatchery, the hatchery is reputable. I also presume you have an invoice for the fish you bought. Go back and read it and make sure it says "bluegill" on it. While you are doing that, take time to catch some more fish and make sure they don't look a bit like the one you caught. Make double-sure you have bluegill.
Here's where I'm going. If Cecil is right, you may have a pond full of hybrids, stocked by the hatchery. If you don't, that single, solitary specimen is an anomaly. As an anomaly, its presence is irrelevant, other than to start a little forum debate about its parentage.
The assumption I made is that you bought fish from good people and they were good fish. I assume you got what you paid for. The conclusion I drew was that this fish was already in the watershed and made its way into your pond, got a head start, and has outgrown everyone else and you happened to catch it. I also conclude it could not be a hybrid spawned in your pond. It had to come from somewhere else.
That's my newest story and I might be stickin' to it (heavy on the word 'might')


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Bob Lusk #182211 09/06/09 09:47 AM
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I have seen PS mixed in w/ BG when I have stocked my pond in the past.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Sunil #182234 09/06/09 01:14 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Sunil
I have seen PS mixed in w/ BG when I have stocked my pond in the past.


You're both in PA. I wonder if it was the same hatchery?

Although as Bob says a reputable hatchery should know better, I've noticed as far as anglers are concerned in parts of the northeast I've fished in , they put bluegills, pumpkinseeds, green sunfish etc. all in one group and call them "sunfish." Maybe at least one hatchery does too?

In Massachusetts where I lived as a kid they go as far as considering all "sunfish" trash fish and cuss out even a big one if it hits their line while they are fishing for trout or bass. An avid New England bass angler told me he would be happy if i caught every last one of them out of a local small lake. In retrospect I should have asked him what he thought the bass eat.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/06/09 02:09 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #182235 09/06/09 01:18 PM
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The ratio might have been 50:1 or 100:1 BG:PS.

Not a concern for me, but maybe for the purist!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Sunil #182237 09/06/09 02:09 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Sunil
The ratio might have been 50:1 or 100:1 BG:PS.

Not a concern for me, but maybe for the purist!


Who did you get your fish from?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #182248 09/06/09 07:15 PM
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My guy was essentially a middle man; he had no actual hatchery, but instead went and bought bulk fish and sold them off in one long loop-type trip. I don't know who his source was for the bluegill.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Sunil #182269 09/06/09 10:14 PM
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Rob,

Who did you get your fish from?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Cecil Baird1 #182280 09/07/09 04:41 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I have seen many PS without red on their ear tabs. It's just a genetic anomaly.


How can you be sure they were not hybrids? Did you do a DNA test?


Gill rakers are pretty good at determining sunfish species. Like almost anything it's not sure fire though. All the ones I saw without red edges certainly could have been hybrids, but the gill rakers and my experience lead me to believe otherwise. Lepomids are very interesting fish!

Cecil Baird1 #182288 09/07/09 07:47 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Rob,
Who did you get your fish from?

Kurtz Fish Hatchery in Elverson, PA. About 30 miles north of me. He's legit. Been around for a while. My pond was drained and rebuilt 2 years ago so the fish were all stocked by me. Seems the hatchery gave me some hybrids or PS by mistake. Guess I'll have to keep fishing to see how many are in there. ;\)

If it is a hybrid BG/PS should I assume it's sterile and can't reproduce?

CJBS2003 #182292 09/07/09 08:02 AM
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I agree with CJ. Wisc Fish has pic of PS , BG and Hybrid gill rakers. Also has morph info. My 2 cents is if that is a hybrid it is mostly PS (high %). Will do some more checking and report. Check out Wisc Fish and compare morph of PS to the pic fish above and see what you think.

Cecil I don't know if the genome of most lepomis, not to mention hybrids, have been mapped.There may well be some specific marker gene strands ided but probably not on mixed hybrids. So if you had a mixed hybrid even the genetic experts may not be able from that info alone to id the fish. So IMO the question of "How do you know if its pure, did you have the genetics checked " on a lepomis hybrid is irrelevent. I bet not one person on this Forum has ever had or seen lepomis genes checked with Dave Willis being a possible exception. Now Green Carp (LMB) are a different matter.
















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It is probably not sterile. Almost all lepomis have cross viability with non sterile hybrids. I will check and report back.

I don't think that is a problem to worry about though.
















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Definetly a hybrid. PS x catfish. The whiskers give it away.
I'm supprised you guys didn't notice that.

How would PS do with SMB & RES?


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 Originally Posted By: Ric Swaim
How would PS do with SMB & RES?

I think we will have a better idea after Dr. Willis' talk at PB Con III.

Those of you who can't make it to Big Cedar Lodge need to clamor for him to turn it into a PBMag article ASAP.


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