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OK, Bill Cody maybe the only guy on here who may have the answer/opinion to my question, but I'll pose it forum wide and let others weigh in...

We all know what the FHM looks like:


The bluntnose minnow BNM:


As far as I know, there is only one hatchery that commercially raises the BNM. It is in Illinois and according the Bill, they sell a lot of BNM. BNM are extremely closely related to FHM. As you can see from the pictures, they look very much alike. Except the FHM is a little less elongated and doesn't have quite the checkering. The BNM gets a little larger in size, perhaps by an inch or so. Also the breeding males look very different. The breeding BNM gets very darkly colored from tail to nose without those yellowish bands that he FHM male gets.

Spawning BNM male:


Both spawn in very similar ways, with the males using the underside of a rock, log, wood pallet etc to lay their eggs. There the male uses turbercles that develop on his head to clean the nest and then the spongy pad that develops on his back to clean and care for the eggs.

From my experience with both species, the BNM is more capable of maintaining self reproducing numbers in ponds with bass and other predators in them. BNM are native to most of the midwest and have been introduced into most eastern drainages as well. They are now very common in the part of Virginia I live in. They were first brought east by the US FWS for use as feeder fish in their aquaculture ponds found along the banks of the Potomac River. Subsequent bait bucket releases and other human releases has spread their range even further. Many ichthyologists feel the BNM is the most common fish in the United States.

I collected a few dozen from the wild last year and have been raising them in a forage pond for the last year and much like FHM, when they are left alone without predation, they multiply faster than rabbits. I am getting a new pond ready for stocking with game fish next spring by building up the forage base in it for nearly a year and half.

This is my question: Currently, I have no FHM in the pond I am building the forage base in. It only has BNM in it along with a few other forage fish species like GSH, spotfin shiners and banded killifish. Would adding FHM be a good idea to bump up forage fish numbers even more and perhaps take the pressure off the BNM when the bass are added next spring, or should I just keep BNM in the pond so they do not have to compete with the FHM for spawning space, food etc... I know BNM are more tolerant of predation, so I want them to be the primary fish species as compared to FHM which I know will quickly be eaten and long gone within a year or two of me stocking the SMB next spring.

Any and all ideas are appreciated...

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I only quickly read your post, so I might have missed a detail or so, but I feel, initially, that I would like to see a story with no fatheads at all.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Depending on the size of the feeder creek to your pond Sunil, you may have some naturally in your pond...

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I'd like to know about this too. Fat heads are illegal where I am but haven't read or seen anything that says bluntnoses are illegal here.


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Travis

I liked this a lot - I am intrigued by minnows like yourself and am studying like heck at night to think of different experiments I can make to find the right balance and species of forage for the ponds.

I like what you wrote about the BNM - seems to be a preferable choice over FHM in terms of establishing a self sustaining population. My question is, would introduction of a similar species [FHM] compete with the resident BNM population and affect their populations negatively?

I have not come close to scratching the surface on the forum archives, but to date I don't recall anyone posting about the BNM until now. I agree with Sunil, I'd like to see how your experiment would far isolating the species in both your ponds and see which one fares better. Would be very valuable research for the forum!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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That is the big question... I think I am going to leave the FHM out and stick with just BNM. We'll see what Bill's opinion on this is. I know he has experience with BNM as well. Biologically they are very similar, so I think they would compete with each other. Just not sure which species would win in that competition...

I was down at the pond tonight and set out a minnow trap. In 1 hour the trap was overflowing with BNM and other forage fish I stocked. As long as I can keep the river otter out, when I stock the smallies next spring they will be happy!

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The feeder creek is substantial (what does that really mean?).

It's about 20' wide and no less than about a foot deep at the most shallow spot.

I've never really had that much luck in trapping minnows and smaller fish.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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At that size Sunil, BNM may have been in it at the time your pond was built... IME, BNM seem to not be found in real small creeks, but when they get to the 10 foot plus in size, they are in nearly every creek that size. If you aren't seeing schools of them along your pond's shoreline, they probably were never present though. With that kind of habitat, I'd say they'd be fairly easy to introduce though.

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FHM will outspawn BNM in the same pond. They have a slightly differrent niche so both will survive and thrive. Without any predation both will overpopulate and tend to stunt. Artificial feeding grows more per acre although overpopulation will still occur with feeding. BNM occur in streams/ditches near me as small as 1 ft wide and 3"-12" deep.


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Bill, since they have slightly different niches, do you think I should also stock the FHM or just stick with the BNM?

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As you know both have pros and cons. If forage diversity is desired then use the FHM. IF the pond is primarily for forage and sorting of the harvest is needed due to minnow harvest then leave FHM out since they will get in the way of quick and efficient sorting. If adding predators, they will make short work of the FHM considering the longer term status of the pond. FHM will initially take some of the predation pressure off the other minnows as the other minnows adapt to newly introduced predatory pressure.


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Thanks Bill, I'll go ahead and add some FHM and hope they take the pressue off the BNM and others so they have a better shot at keeping a naturally reproducing population present...

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I think the minnows I caught today in the crick behind my house are these BNM. I was suprised there was anything in it since it doesnt flow all the time.

Anyway I have them seperated in a area of a 1/4 acre pond. The pond has Bluegill and LMB of all the usual shapes and sizes. (hasn't been stocked in over 15 years) How many BNM would be reasonable to try to establish them in the pond? The pond has tons of cover in trees that grow on the waters edge.

I thought if I could add a minnow population to the pond it would give the young bass a good forage fish. I have a bunch of other issues I have been trying to address with the pond and figured while I was at it...

Anyways I'll probably start another thread somewhere with some pictures and questions. Great forum!

-Scott

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Welcome to the forum Scott...

Trying to establish BNM in a pond that already has a bass population present can be really tricky.

Do you have access to a smaller pond that is free of fish? You can add a few dozen BNM there and let them breed. Then transfer the young by the thousands to your bigger pond. If you were going to try to establish them in the pond with bass, you'd literally needs thousands in all likelihood. Make sure you have stuff for them to breed on. Flat objects near the bottom like cinder blocks, flat stones, pieces of plywood, pallets, etc...

Also, make sure they actually are BNM...

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Does anyone know of a source where one can buy bluntnose minnows?? I would be interested in trying to raise some if I could find brood stock. I have looked at the pictures and can't recall ever seeing one, perhaps more trapping is in order.

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Commercial suppliers are rare. Almost every creek in PA has them present. One hatchery in IL (Opels F.H.) sells them but I don't think he next-day ships them.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/01/09 08:43 PM.

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Conneaut Lake and Pymatuning Lake both have populations of BNM. The streams that they are dammed up on, also have them. My professor at Penn State took us there when I was in college. I also have piles of them in the creek behind our hunting cabin in Bedford Co, PA if you wanna make the trip down there. I am usually there a couple times a month and would be glad to help you collect some. I'll be there tomorrow and Thursday working on my food plots if you can make it down then...

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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Conneaut Lake and Pymatuning Lake both have populations of BNM. The streams that they are dammed up on, also have them. My professor at Penn State took us there when I was in college. I also have piles of them in the creek behind our hunting cabin in Bedford Co, PA if you wanna make the trip down there. I am usually there a couple times a month and would be glad to help you collect some. I'll be there tomorrow and Thursday working on my food plots if you can make it down then...



CJ,

Apparently you studied fisheries and then ended up becoming a LEO?

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/03/09 08:47 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Conneaut Lake and Pymatuning Lake both have populations of BNM. The streams that they are dammed up on, also have them. My professor at Penn State took us there when I was in college. I also have piles of them in the creek behind our hunting cabin in Bedford Co, PA if you wanna make the trip down there. I am usually there a couple times a month and would be glad to help you collect some. I'll be there tomorrow and Thursday working on my food plots if you can make it down then...



CJ,

Apparently you studied fisheries and then ended up becoming a LEO?


I think you're right, Cecil. I keep wondering how long he'll continue chasing skateboarders and dodging bullets before he does a full swan dive into opening a fisheries management practice in VA. Sounds like VA needs a good manager AND a good hatchery. I'm open to investing, Travis, if you need a good partner! Go look for that foreclosed acreage and let's get started already!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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I only have a minor in wildlife and fisheries management. Wouldn't know where to start if I opened a hatchery and I have no risk taking genes in my DNA! Well, at least the kind involving finances. I like police work... Lots of time off to do the thing I like, fishing and hunting! Owning your own business is lots of work... I think you and TJ already knew that though! ;\) Maybe when I retire I'll go wild and open a pond management company... Only 19 years to go! HAHA

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It's hard to realize now, but nineteen years goes by pretty quick.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I only have a minor in wildlife and fisheries management.


What a coincidence, I minored in wild life as well. \:D

+1 on the 19 years going fast.


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 Originally Posted By: Sunil
It's hard to realize now, but nineteen years goes by pretty quick.


No way, I'm invincible....right?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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