Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Black Soldier Fly project

Yeah, I have read about 3/4 of all the postings on this site and I think I know why mcgrackle hasn't been heard of for several months. Kind of rediculous. Most of the time when people get mad, I believe it is either jealousy, bruised ego, as has to do with being too proud.

Anyway, Thanks for endorsing my thoughts and adding the screen idea, which I hadn't thought of for the worms. But last night I was thinking about making a mosquito screen top for the tote so that regular flies and the like can't readily get in to the food and eliminate premature crawloff over the edges at night.

Look people, here is how simple it is to get black soilder fly larvae started.

Of course it helps I guess when you have them in your area to start with. Again, I found out by accident.

About the first of Aug., Maybe the very end of July, I stopped by starbucks to get a free bag of used coffee grounds as I have done many many times before to put into my compost pile to heat things up abit. This time instead of putting the roughly 20 - 25 lbs. into the compost, I put it into a 5 gal. bucket so I could use it at a later time.

Today, about 2 weeks later, I find lots of small BSF larvae down in the damp part of it. I finally found something that is fail proof - bsfl

I can confirm that it's easy to find BSF if they find you first.

What's funny is that if you ask your neighbors what a black soldier fly is 99% of them won't know. If you show them one then half would probably say that they think they've seen those around but thought they were some kind of wasp or something.

Today, there were/still are several BSF around the unit and one even got in the house. I said, "honey look, a bsf got in the house!" As I was easily trying to catch and release it, my father-in-law was looking at me kind of funny like wondering why I wasn't trying to kill it. But you understand that he doesn't really know what that contraption is that sometimes smells out there on the porch. After my wife explained to him that if there are enough larvae in the container, they keep flies away, He was fine with it!

I spread a light layer of dry coffee grounds across the top of the bin and that seems to absorb or hide the strong smell. Just today all the flies went away since the drownings and heat strokes. I assume the larvae are now dominant again.

I am keeping the top off of the unit 24/7 now since I rigged up a small overhang on the edge of the container all the way around to hopefully 100% keep premature crawloff from out over the edges.

The reason for the above change is this: After finding the larvae overheated and drowned, the consumption went down and there was very bad smell, then because of the smell, there was an influx of all kinds of flies, including the large flesh fly and dragon flies. As the Larvae population grew back over the last 4 days, (only adding dry items to bin), I was having a lot of premature crawloff out of the top and not big ones, but small ones from 1/4" to 3/8" and I thought that all the big ones had drowned. I dug down and turned over some material (with a big metal spoon because of the yuck factor) and found lots of big ones and lots of big dark ones.

So, Here is my question. Why were the small ones hauling tail while the bigger ones stay down under the surface?

Hey GW,

This morning I was helping a friend over at his place, and the BSF were swarming all over. Never seen that many in 1 place. They were landing all over us. At my place, I have seen maybe 4 in the last 3-4 years.

Speaking of wasp, years ago we used to buy "Wazp Larva" for fishing bait. I know what wasp larvae look like, and those were not wasp larvae. I also know what fly larvae look like, and they appeared to be some type of fly larvae. Are you familiar with that trade name? Probably BSF larvae, no?

The first thing I'll address is the odor issue. A bad odor means you don't have a balanced black soldier fly colony as does the influx of other fly species. I think you know that already and you're now seeing the aftermath of the colony crash you described a few days ago.

Adding dry food items to dry the waste in the unit is fine if there isn't a bad odor. If there is a bad odor then I suggest that you stop adding any food at all. In that case I would use shredded paper (not newspaper or glossy) or sawdust (not pressure treated). Adding more food to an imbalanced colony will only make it worse.

The shredded paper or sawdust should be gently mixed into the waste, and to discourage other fly species you can leave a few inches of the paper in a layer on top of the pile. Most pest fly species want to land directly on the waste and the paper will discourage them. The paper won't hinder the BSF, in fact they may lay eggs on it so don't remove it from your unit.

Now for your question about the smaller larvae. I suspect these smaller larvae aren't BSF but are from the other fly species that have been attracted to your unit. A house fly larva can develop in a day or two and like most other fly species they're considerably smaller than BSF larvae. I imagine you have fruit fly larvae also. These other fly species will pass through your system in a few days. Just be careful about sanitation because some of these other flies carry pathogens.

Hey there bobad,

I'm not sure what to think of your experience. How confident are you that the flies at your friend's place were BSF? Both the swarming and the fact that they were landing on you makes me doubt they were BSF.

Up until a few weeks ago I hadn't seen more than about a dozen BSF adult flies at one time, and I've released 10's of thousands of larvae on my property. Then recently I had several thousand pupae in a bucket and one morning there must have been around 200 newly emerged BSF adults clinging to the inside walls, drying their wings. I continued working in the area and the BSF all eventually came out of the bucket and flew straight into the woods. Not one landed on me or showed me any attention at all.

I should point out that I do have BSF land on me occasionally but that's to be expected because I often have the scent of the grubs on my hands and this is a powerful attractant to egg laden females.

I'm trying to imagine what would motive BSF to swarm and I can't come up with anything. If these would have been newly emerged adults they would be mating and I've never heard of this happening in a swarm. I suppose it's possible but I think it would require a huge BSF population. As I understand it a male and a female couple in flight and usually fall to the ground together. If these were mating BSF I think you would have noticed this. If these were BSF that had already mated then they would have been all females looking for an egg laying site. In that case you would still need a huge BSF population and also a super attractive food source. In any case I can't imagine that many BSF anywhere unless there was a very large food source.

I don't know bobad, I respect your ability to observe nature, but on the other hand this is unusual behavior for BSF and there are over 100,000 species of flies after all. One thing you could do is check back at your friend's place in about two weeks and look for BSF grubs. Assuming there is ample food available the grubs should be very easy to find.

For more information you can read this study about BSF mating behavior done by Doctors Sheppard and Tomberlin, two of the leading BSF researchers: http://www.fcla.edu/FlaEnt/fe84p729.pdf In this study they did observe large concentrations of BSF adults, but the location was an open-sided chicken house. BSF thrive in chicken manure which explains the large numbers in that case. BSF are typically welcome in a situation like this open layer house because they reduce house fly breeding almost entirely.

If you get more information about this I would be interested.

About the Wazp Larva; I agree they were probably BSF. In certain areas BSF grubs are very popular as bait, especially in the south where they're easy to culture.

Thanks for visiting bobad.

GW, I agree with you completely. I have found alot of little reddish cocooons and several in my coffee container with the Larvae that had migrated. Are those fly larvae going into their next stage?

Lots of small hovering flies that I think are fruit flies.

I even have one hornet or something that comes and visits everyday and looks like it is eating eggs that have been laid on the unit's surface. It jumped a housefly, picked it up and went to an above porch rafter and did something to it like a spider that wraps up a bug. Don't know if he was sucking juice out of it, killing it, eating it, or what?

I just cleaned out my coffee can and I had about 35 or so good ones and about 6 or 8 fly maggots and one red cocoon.

Temperature outside is 70 and temp. 2 or 3 inches into the center of the unit is 93.

Do I need to dampen the shredded up paper I put on top or just leave it dry? If they don't eat paper what will happen to it?

I seem to see BSF around my bin in the late morning to early afternoon. Thankyou for your continuous help with this!

Yes, the reddish cocoons (pupae) are probably from house flies. You can feed them to fish if you have them, or bury them to prevent the adults from emerging.

Leave the paper dry and the BSF will finely shred it eventually.

The BSF adults that are visiting your bin are females looking to lay eggs. Within 3-4 weeks you should have a healthy colony going.

Between the paper and not adding new food scraps you should see some reduction in the other fly species in a day or two.

Yesterday I harvested about 300 larvae.

Just to test the way temperature affects the 5th instar, I put those in the refrigerator and today when I looked at them they appeared lifeless. After about 15 minutes back outside in the 90 some degree weather, they were moving like yesterday.

Now I know for myself that they can be stored in the cold, but I don't know for how long. There is probably a shelf limit it you will, but I would assume that is quite some time as they go dormant. Several possibilities now exist for me. They can be used as fishbait at a later time, they can be held until sold, they can be held until warm weather comes back around and sent to someone needing them to seed their area, they can be stored in frig. for a reptile owner who wants to have a large quantity on hand for feed, etc.? Talk about a productive, low cost hobby!!!

GW, is there a payment plan on a biopod or is it pay in full before shipment?

Just an update, it's been a busy summer...

My colony is in the scrounged bottom foot or so of a plastic 55 gal drum. It is on legs to raise it to waist height, I can toss a board across it as a cutting board to chop fibrous veggie parts to a manageable size. The larvae manure will be screened into a compost heap "soon" for a month now.

I have a very wet colony probably due to too many grapes and condensation on the metal cover that was supposed to be temporary four months ago I am having a fair amount of crawloff, but I'm not concerned as the colony is wall to wall larvae despite probable underfeeding to boot. I'm going to pull a bung on what is now the drum bottom as soon as I decide on a good filter. The waste is very fine and a fine filter will clog easily. I will probably try a scrubbing pad or piece of floor stripping pad (similar but an inch thick, less dense and two feet across). There is slight funkiness with the lid on, but not bad and tolerable (to me) even with the lid off. The alien fly issues I mentioned before settled out in a week or two of less food. The chicken breasts disappeared when I stopped feeding for several days. A tighter lid helped with the other flies. I think the old lid let the wind through (1 inch gap on one side) and it diluted the pheromones, the new one has just 1/16-1/8 gap where there is a gap at all. adding 40 pounds of weight to force it closed helps too. I stir the muck to aerate the bottom now and then. It's time to strain the ten inches of goop out, bury the bones and add the reserve 5 gallons of coffee grinds. At the moment I'm more interested in waste disposal and composting than harvesting pupae, though I'm sure the local wrens, frogs, ants and unfortunately mice are having a good time.

There are a LOT of eggs where the legs are attached, I scrape them off and stick them inside the bin. I usually see 2-6 adults when I visit the bins and sometimes they seem curious or territorial, though this may be attraction to sunlight reflecting off skin or light clothes and I am usually downwind and inside the colony scent plume.

I'm starting some experimental mini colonies as I noticed that my vacuuming is mostly finely divided organic material..cat hair, bob hair, skin flakes, crumbs, spilled cat food, cotton fiber from towels and the carpet,etc. So far they seem to like it. I want to see how much ends up as undigested residue before i toss it into the big bin. I may do one for the litter box too, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort of sorting compost.

The next project is to switch to a plywood lid with a prepupal collection ramp or hose.

I found half inch hardware cloth works well for getting the bones, stems and long fibers out, then 1/4 or better, 1/8 cloth salvages most of the larvae. Window screen clogs too easily, it takes way too much water to screen the waste through. It is good for washing the bugs off for donation to the local fishing buddy.

If this sounds like a lot of effort, its because I use a fine cut for my compost (it goes very hot overnight) and turn it frequently to quickly reduce it's volume, then pile batches aside to finish more slowly in bulk as recent studies have shown rapid composting techniques dont finish as well. Locally the debate is whether the sand or the road clay is more fertile because there isnt much else. I have a quarter acre of mostly sand.

Whenever I get it running drier again I may toss a couple of the local anole or skink lizards in and see how well they do. Maybe add a floating dock...

Happy Monday!

Bob

Eggs that hatched in my BioPod last year in late October were still in the juvenile larval stage in early May of this year. They delayed their development until spring when mating could resume. This might be effected by several factors but temperature seems like the most important. Those larvae were fed occasionally during the winter and were not completely dormant.

You can store BSF grubs for several weeks and possibly months with refrigeration, but you have to provide them with fresh air and humidity around 70%. Most refrigerators create a relatively dry environment which will eventually kill the grubs.

I don't have a payment plan for BioPods. I just use the typical internet method of receiving the funds first and then ordering the units to be drop shipped by the manufacturer.

bobdog, to be honest I don't have a very clear picture of your system(s), but I'll make a few general points.

Cutting food scraps isn't at all necessary for the BSF. Maybe you're doing this because you're sorting/screening the castings later? I don't know much about traditional composting so maybe that's why I don't understand some of your procedures.

For a filter or pre-filter you might try using coconut fiber (coir). It's biodegradable, cheap, and seems to be effective. I now recommend a one inch coir liner for the bottom of BioPods to keep the drain and filter medium from clogging. I have two pages on my blog that show coir being used. One is the "tips and tweaks" page for setting up a BioPod, and the other is part of a DIY bucket BSF bio-composter (repeat that rapidly six times) I'm working with now. I used plastic pot scrubbers as a final filter medium in a modification to my BioPod drain which is also on the "tweaks" page.

http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/the_biopod/biopod-tips-and-tweaks/

http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2009/08/13/do-it-yourself-bsf-bucket-bio-composter/

The tighter lid you mention might cause more problems at some point than it solves. BSF colonies usually need a lot of ventilation in hot weather. Maybe it works for your set up, but keeping out other fly species is automatic if you have a dense and balanced BSF colony working.

The adults you see at your bin are females looking for egg laying sites. They are in no way territorial. The only territorial behavior observed in BSF is between adult males and it's not at all violent.

Stirring the muck in your bin is also something that would be unnecessary with a balanced BSF colony. In a thriving colony aeration is provided by the churning action of the grubs.

I can't imagine BSF developing on the stuff vacuumed from your floor. Hair and plant fibers will be ignored and a few crumbs of food wouldn't last two minutes in normal BSF colony.

I'm not trying to discourage you in any way. I think if you keep studying and experimenting with BSF you'll figure out exactly how you want to use them and the best way to do it. You might want to try out my DIY composter. I would do like to hear what you think about it.

I'm looking forward (with some trepidation ) to updates on your progress.

At least 70% humidity and fresh air or they will die. Got it.

Normal Internet payment. Got it.

Why don't BSFL eat their own dead?

Will BSFL eat composting worm egg pods?

Will BSFL consume used veg. oil?

I have been keeping a composting thermometer in the middle of the unit so I can monitor the temperature. One day it was 93, next day it was 102, and today it is running 105. My unit is 95% shaded under the corner of the porch. How hot should I let it get and then what???

Bobdog, I would like to see your setup!! And I do agree with gw about them not eating the fibers as they don't eat cellulose and cardboard. I have seen damp coffee filters with holes in them but I assume they are crawling through them and not eating them. My bin with compost worms and larvae with hog _ h i t (an s for 300 please) on top is doing good and the worms seem real happy because there are egg pods everywhere. (Stiring it up makes it look like they are everywhere) I love BSFLarvaeing as a hobby? I am just glad my wife can deal with it on the porch. Bill

I don't know it the BSF will eat the worm eggs. I doubt it though because I've communicated with several worm keepers about the two species in one bin and no one has mentioned it.

I do think BSF grubs will eat their own dead eventually. At first I didn't think so because I had seen dead ones untouched for long periods. I think the reason it takes a while is that BSF grubs can't penetrate their own touch outer skins until they soften from decomposition. BSF are designed to consume things that are decomposing or otherwise soft. The thin skin of a tomato will stop them but if you make a tiny opening they will devour it quickly.

BSF reportedly survive until temps reach 116ºF. I wouldn't want to see the colony much over 105º though. I guess you would want to have as much ventilation as possible and maybe 100% shade instead of 95%.

I found out 2 weeks ago how to drown them. Now I know how hot is too hot! I dug out all of the material and grubs that were in the rubbermaid tote and split it into two buckets and the heat problem was still there.

The shredded paper to absorb moisture, too many coffee grounds, what moisture is left, the larvae's activity, and the sun on the south side of the porch hitting the side of the tote all together reached to almost 130 F. The smart ones stayed on the edges and bottom and top and lived. Smell is almost completely gone.

If you want to learn how to hot compost, I definitely know how now.

I went ahead and split the two 5 gallon buckets into 5 buckets and some left in the tote and added some water to all of them. That put the temps down to 95 F for now.

I am going to make a box that is about 10 foot long, 16 inches deep, and about a foot across and divide it into 3 even sections using wire that a large larvae can get through and a red wriggler will obviously be able to get through it also.

The section on the left and the middle section will each have a 6" id tower. The section on the right will have no tower.

The left 3rd will get all the various house food scraps that will go into the tower and be kept sealed off with light film or saran wrap and a big rubber band so house flies can't get in. I will drill small holes around the top of the tower for the BSF's to smell and lay eggs. This section will have the exit ramp.

The center part will have the same tower idea without the holes in the top and I will put pure rabbit/hog/chicken manure into it.
This section may also end up getting a ramp.

The section on the right will get only items that BSFL don't eat that worms do eat eventually.

I am hoping that this will allow both of them to have plenty of space so they can go where they want to according to food, heat, and moisture.

I will also build a top for it so I can control the moisture since it is so big and will be out off the porch.

The two screens that separate the 3 sections will be very sturdy. Either they will slide up and down channels or they will be screwed in tight. I want to use these so when I clean out a section, the other section or two don't cause me more work by falling into the section to be turned or cleaned or whatever.

I will have to mount this big box up on saw horses or some kind of legs and treat or vasoline or ? for ants.

Don't know how it is going to work, but it sounds like a challenge.

I am hoping too with the size of this box, everyone (critters) will have enough room to escape freezing soil come winter. Luckily it only dips down into the 20's at the most around here.

All what abouts, what ifs, do it like this, etc. are welcome as I know I am not a professional

You sound like (a) BSF fanatic!

GW, Not much traffic on here at the end of the summer just before school, huh?

I read all the info on your diy bucket idea. Really enjoyed reading it. Makes sense to me and my problem on my containers are the exit ramps. Your biocomposter has the ramp going up to a hole and then straight down to the collection bucket. I know why now. This is a very good set up. My tote, on the contrary, has a 1 1/2 inch see through hose that they like to walk up but seem to sense the downward motion after coming out of the tote and then some of them turn around. My other container with an exit ramp has a piece of pvc that ends with a 90 so they drop straight down but I don't know if they are even getting up it yet because the inside of the pipe is slick and dry. You see both containers with the exit ramps go to the same collection bucket and that is why I can't tell if they are getting up the pvc pipe. What would you suggest as an angle for slick dry pvc pipe as I read somewhere the angle needs to be sharp enough so that housefly maggots can't exit and then get consumed by the BSFL.

For some time now I have had 5 other containers with differing moistures and food content. Two of those have red wrigglers in them and I am putting 100% paper and cellulose items in one of them and a mixture of cellulose and dry scraps in the other one, but as for growing larvae, it has come down to 2 metal 5 gal buckets and a plastic 5 gal bucket, one on top of the other 2, and I throw wet scrap in the top bucket. This set-up slowly drips juice into the bottom 2 and I put dryer scraps, not lint, in them. No exit ramps in these buckets though. I forsee a problem with overcrowding here in about a week.

I have a drip pan about 30 by 50 by 1 in. deep that I keep water in to stop ants. The buckets are on a piece of plywood atop 2 4x4s that are in the water mote. This way, when larvae crawl out, they can hit the plywood and crawl off and hit the deck and escape to pupate instead of the water mote and drown.

Have you noticed that the BSF size after pupating is in proportion to its living condition as a larvae. In other words if the larvae is small at pupation time, the fly is small.

I wonder if the fly grows after becoming a fly? I don't think so since all of its time and energy goes into producing eggs. What do you know about this?

And I read somewhere that the BSF has some kind of nectar extractor in place of a mouth. The nectar must keep it going for the week.
By the way, I haven't started the big box idea yet, but I do have the box and the pvc pipes ready to go.

My main tote of larvae is now dry and today is the first day it is staying under 100 degrees. No stink atall (texan talk)

I always get long winded when getting on here so I will stop for now.

My wife is, now that the stink is gone, getting into looking at them and putting scraps in. Alright!!!

A good angle for ramps is 40º or maybe a little less. They should be able to make it up even if it's dry. As far as the housefly larvae are concerned they can climb straight up the sides if there is condensation present, same as the BSF. Also, the BSF won't eat the living housefly larvae, but they would eat them if they died. I think it's more likely that the housefly larvae would pupate in the unit and emerge later. Either way it should only be an issue before you establish a dense BSF colony.

Your method of using a water mote with the plywood over it is a good one.

Yes, small grubs = small adults. In their adult stage they don't eat so they must live off their stored fat. I believe they need to drink in the adult stage. I think I saw one lick some strawberry jelly once.

I will remember 40 degrees and thanks for the attaboy on the plywood over the mote. It is either ant poison, vasoline, or some type of liquid. I just thought about using motor oil or transmission fluid or something like that because they don't evaporate, but everytime I clean my mote, all I do is dump it out into a plant pot and it would be a hassle to be dumping oil a couple times a month and anyways.... The weather around here is getting down to 60 at night and getting up to about 95 in the daytime. I am keeping lots of coffee grounds in the tops of the containers to keep the temperatures at night above 80 degrees, preferrably 100 degrees so my munchers keep munching.

Over the last ten days or so, my chickens have now added the area below the porch as a food source in their morning stroll. And get this! Jackie, our top of the totem pole hen is now roosting on the edge of the porch right next to the larvae. I am jealous, my wife always wants me to go in the house to sleep. I will have to come up with a way to direct her poop right into the tote for the little guys to have fresh manure.

My son and the neighbor used some of the Larvae that was in the frig. for fishbait the other day. They caught a brim/bluegill on one. I just need to get the word out that I have the bait.



When you start a new, or say restart in the spring, do you put just larvae and food, or do you have the larvae in some peat, dirt, etc.

It's not a recommended practice to feed manure or offal from one class of animal (mammal, reptile, bird, etc) to a BSF colony and then feed the harvested BSF grubs back to that same class of animal. I don't know the science behind it, but I believe that when you create a loop (bird -> grub -> bird) that you can encourage the development of pathogens. That's what I've been told anyway. I believe this rule only applies to live or untreated grubs and that you can safely feed sterilized grubs to the same animals that supplied the nutrients to raise the grubs. Cooking the BSF thoroughly should sterilize them and dehydration might also work. I recommend you do some research to be sure.

Theoretically you don't have to re-start a colony maintained through winter. You can simply continue feeding and remove the insulation. I had to restart my colony this spring because I didn't maintain it properly over the winter and by spring it had become mildly anaerobic (stinky). I harvested most of the BSF and put a few cups of the old compost (attractant) in the cleaned out BioPod with some new food scraps. The juvenile larvae/grubs never require any bedding material.

Can I establish a BSF colony in Houston, Texas this time of year?
I made a setup about a week and a half ago, and the house flies are rockin and rolling unfortunately I don't want any of those.
The weather has been really nice so far, but I have not seen any signs of the BSF larvae.
Thanks
Mango matto

Hi Mango, welcome. Jerry (GW) is the resident expert on BSF and hopefully he will check in and answer your questions. I have had my unit for 2 years and really enjoy them - as do my fish. I don't know about establishing a colony this late in the year, but if you do, the BSF will make the house flies disappear.
Good luck...

Hey Randy, thanks for covering for me! I've been wondering if you're colony is finished for the year. Down here I'm still seeing a little egg laying on the warmer days.

Hi Mango Matto, I've recently learned that BSF reproduction happens in cooler weather than I had previously thought. I've had adult BSF emerging from pupation in temps in the mid 60's and I've seen egg laying in the low 70's when evening temps are in the 40's. Still, reproduction is noticeably less than in the warmer months and I doubt you could build up a respectable colony by starting now. Just the same, you can try and if you don't get results in a few weeks you can give up until next spring. I would love to hear about it if you can get something going. I just heard of a wild BSF population in central Illinois so I'm constantly having to rethink my positions.