Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose yankee fish

I have a unique situation with a new 120 acre private lake in north Georgia mountains. Client watns to have something diff than typical bass/bg fishery most Georgians enjoy.

Couple for questions for ya:
1. from water quality perspective it is about as bad as it it is going to get right now for cold water species survivial and we got the following:
vis- 10 feet
surface temp/DO- 85/7.3
15'- 76/7.4
16'- 73/3.0
17'- 71/0.2
32'-55/0

as you can see thermocline at 15-17 feet. I know there is not trout water how about the following:
norhtern pike, walleye, muskie, small mouth, yellow perch?

2. If you think they will make it through the summer where can I buy them? as fingerlings or small adults? stocking rates? any diff forage species? more info needed?

Dave Willis, others?, ewest ansers already archived? ANy info woudl really help. I can grow some bass but no expert on these, thanks.

Greg that is a big job. Congrats.

What about a typical winter (water temps) and possibility of some aeration and feeding and water quality?

SMB and YP will work at those thermal maxs. Also chain pickerel will work. If they don't want BG then other lepomis will work. Don't forget HSB as they should do well in those conditions. I will add some threads and info.

Add ons for future archives

SMB max temps
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=004555;p=1#000005

SMB in ponds - very good info

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000601

Walleye FishBase

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=3516

Yellow Perch (YP) FishBase
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=359


Bruce's YP project - tons of YP info of every nature

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000379


More great information on yellow perch esp. southern waters. ! Cecil

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000651


Eyes , SMB and YP

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000257

Greg -- toss a little more habitat descrption at us, and I'll try to brainstorm a little. Rocks, submergent vegetation, clarity, etc.?

I have been reading for a couple of hours, it still seems like it is lots of possibilities with no clear cut picture of potential results. It seems walleye, yellow perch and smallmouth will make, will they strive that is still unknown. Seems to me like trial and error is in order here. Norm you should like this plan.,  Also I was not able to get a clear specific answer on stocking rates nor best place to purchase to get them to GA.

Here is more info lake I have so far. Owner is very busy and although he paid me for my shock time has not given me much time to answer my questions. What I know it was in process of filling last year. Lots of watershed means it filled quickly. I think full by late summer (guess). Lake was never stocked with any fish

Shock results:
Decent population of 3-7 inch redbreast sunfish
Low population of bluegill
No reproduction witnessed for any species
12 bass captured over 10 inches, avg Wr- 110% with largest 15 inches and 2.2lbs.
275 bass 5-7 inches and we could have dipped many more if we tried.
Couple of sucker type fish including horny head
Two rainbow trout near main tributary about 10 inches in length

Hmm… my guess is fish came in during filling process, obviously the few bass had very good reproductive success and with no predators unbelievable recruitment, there are 6 inch bass everywhere, almost on every cast they tell me.

So I understand bluegill should not be stocked with SMB, oh well, also LMB will out compete, too late for that as well. Not feasible to drain and start over a 120 acre lake. Again folks help me out here.

Dave on habitat, not alot of rock noticed, thee was about 5-10% coverage of potomogeton spp. Growing in up to 7 feet of depth. Vis was well longer than my rope and arm combined. In other words greater than 10 feet I would guess not much more around 12. I was not prepared with long enough rope, sorry.

Aeration is not an option at this time, in future I think power will be closer, might be able to do something now at the dam, just doing it there will that help? Not idea right now on winter temps for this lake.

Wow, Greg, what a monumental project.

I hope the owner can slow down enough to enjoy it.

A couple thoughts:

You mentioned pickeral as a possibility. My experience fishing warmer waters [ozarks in arkansas] with these guys, in the abscence of some really big top end predators [usually northerns], is that they tend to stunt, and never get above a couple of pounds, with most smaller.

What about HSB? They should grow like crazy in this environment, could be supplemented with feed [expensive-but anyone with 120 acre lake may have the resources to have several high capacity feeders and the feed to fill them with], and could provide "something different than the usual Georgia bass/bream pond"-really dramatically different when they reach 4-6 pounds, which could be pretty quickly, if you can find some 1-11/2 lb stockers for this fall.

If you're shocking live trout in mid July, they may well be a viable option as well......and if you stock fairly large ones, the HSB probably won't significantly impact them.

You mentioned northerns as a possibility-I don't have any experience with these in more southern waters, but would think if you're cold enough to sustain trout, you can probably raise northerns-hopefully someone with real knowledge can comment. I think I recall being surprised at reading that muskies can tolerate warmer water than northerns-and we actually have a few in a couple rivers around mid TN, so they might work. Muskies would definitely meet your clients "something different" goal.

Please let us know what you come up with, and how it works out.

How many Muskies could a well-managed (after all, they hired Greg) 120 acres support?

yolk actually ewest mentioned the pickerel, yep I do not want them. We have those in south GA lakes already. I kinda hope some of the species will not recuirt this way they are more controlable. Muskie would be too col, how many Theo that is the question. They ahev plenty of little bass to eat right now,

I thought about it and might do HSB. I have clients with HSB. thanks for thought on that. However some folks do not realize HSB do poorly at low alkalinity waters, and this is typical of GA in that regard. However we can manage the HSB but I just want somethgin more unique, can I do it?

We did get 2 trout right at the entrance of creek. Strange though the water there while cooler was still 81 instead of 85, they are suppposed to die at 70, right? However the only fish he has stocked were several trout and they have not been seen for awhile. He really wants me to tell him if they are there. I could see how that is possible with the thermo #'s.

Come on cody, cecil, norm someone else has got to have some more ideas for me.

OK, lots of good brainstorming already. I'll toss out some thoughts -- probably some better than others. It seems really weird to give advice to Greg, of all people.

First of all, the largemouths are there and they're reproducing like crazy. I think we'll have to accept that he's going to have LMB as the base predator, unless you really start all over again.

I think I would try to sell him on "bonus" populations of smallmouth bass and walleye. They are not going to be the mainstay, but the owner should be able to occasionally catch both of these species, adding some spice to his life. Given that we're probably going to have plenty of largemouth bass, both of these species will probably need to be maintained by stocking larger sizes of fish (Greg knows -- say 10 inches and longer). How often and how many will, of course, depend on whether they want to eat the fish or just catch and release. Greg, generally with maintenance stockings of 10 inch advanced walleyes, we stock at about 10-20 per acre. I don't know what sources you might or might not have, and how deep the pockets might be. I'd rather see 10/acre/year than 20/acre/every other year, but both are feasible.

For the smallies, recall my one "study" where it took 10 years for the largemouths to displace the smallmouths. It doesn't happen overnight, and I think in longer terms with my management than do most of my pond owners.

If you plan to add smallies or walleyes, I think that I'd do a little habitat work. Is there a peninsula that could be rip-rapped? Could you build an island out of rip-rap or rock? I've got one smallie pond whee we made big islands from concrete slabs that were torn up -- you'd think it would look bad, but the top of the concrete is about 3 feet under the water, and you really can't tell much difference from rocks.

The musky idea would be fun. We can use moderate-density populations of their cousin, the northern pike, to thin small largemouth bass, and make a lot better LMB fisheries. The million dollar questions are how many is enough and how many are too many. Too many pike cause a lot of problems, and you sure wouldn't want to overstock the muskies.

Wild musky populations can support reasonable fisheries at abundances as low as 1 pound/acre. Probably the peak abundance is up around 10 pounds/acre, and that is rare, and sometimes wreaks havoc on the fish community. Let's say you target 5 pounds/acre in 120 acres of water. That is 600 pounds of musky. If they average 10 pounds, that is 60 fish. When lakes have a good centrarchid predator base, such as your largemouths, most state agencies have found that you need to stock at least 14 inch muskies. I'd expect high survival on those, so I'm not sure that I'd want to stock more than 60 or 70? Even that seems like an awful lot of toothy, big predators. If the muskies average 15 pounds each, then you have room for a lot fewer, if you catch my drift.

I don't have any experience with muskies at these types of numbers. One of my pondowners put 3 muskies into a 20-acre pond. About once every year or two, someone will hook one. They have never landed one because 6 or 8 pound monofilament is not good medicine for all those teeth and a large body size! However, the stories really fly after that. We catch one or two in our trap nets now and then. At that low density, they have had no effect on the pond community, and they really add some diversity (spice).

Ok the rest of you guys. Add some brainstorming, and maybe it will spur a few additional ideas from me.

Greg -- a thought on the trout. We have trout (primarily rainbows) in western SD ponds, and it's going to be 95-100 F out there the next week or so. What happens is that the trout go down into the thermocline and hang out in water that is moderately cool, but still has some oxygen. They usually come to the surface at sunrise and sunset, and feed on insects. The water is too warm, but they can come and feed for a little while, and then head back to their thermal refuge. They can handle this for a week or two and then it cools. If it goes on too long, we start to have some mortalities. Also, we get some summerkills if a big windstorm breaks the stratification.

Man, are the growth rates spectacular in these ponds. Stock 6 inch trout one spring and the next spring they are all 3 pounders!

Greg lets break this down some. If LMB are there in #s it limits what you can do unless you are going to stock on a continuing basis adult fish.

Lets start with what forage base (or combo) you intend to use and how are you going to establish it with LMB there now. IMO this lake is to big to rely on one species (niche). You will need both near shore forage (BG or other lepomis ,FH etc - no tilapia in Ga. right) and an open water grazer ( TShad , bluebacks or others). It would also be good to have one or more species that can use both niches like GShiners. Otherwise a big portion of the water will go under used.

The predator fish can work from there. Eyes , HSB , YP , SMB , (possible crappie), will all need an open water forage fish if they are going to compete with LMB without feeding.

WRT the lake size point where SMB can successfully recruit in the presence of LMB I don't know. Dave may. Not well in ponds but 120 acres with different environs (room) may work.

To me the most pressing matter is getting a forage base established and knocking down those LMB #s. This of course is based on the owners idea of not having a BG/LMB lake.

I point out that Bob has seen both parts of this in lakes that size ( infertile southern waters of that size --Richmond Mill , and multi -specie northern waters this size - NY ).

Good point on the water body size and smb recruitment, ewest.

This thread is exciting - like having Chet Atkins, Django Reinhardt, and Randy Rhoades jam!

Yankee fish invade Tenn. Muskellunge info.


Muskellunge in Tennessee Streams

JOHN W. PARSONS


The muskellunge (Esox masquinongy) of

Tennessee streams provides the southernmost

muskellunge fishery in the United States. The

muskellunge in Tennessee and the Ohio River

drainage is often referred to as the Ohio mus-

kellunge, Esox masquinongy ohioensis; how-

ever, there is no valid description of this sub-

species. The muskellunge has attained great

popularity as a sport fish in Tennessee although

its range and abundance are limited.


Waters in the streams are almost always clear (turbidity less

than 5 p.p.m.) except for brief periods after

unusually heavy rains. Total alkalinity is us-

ually between 10 and 20 p.p.m. and pH be-

tween 6.8 to 7.0.


In comparison

with growth rates in the northern United

States and Canada, (Greely 1938, Hourston

1952, Ricker 1947, Schloemer 1938, Smith

1944, Van Oosten 1923), muskellunge in

Tennessee grow slowly through the first 3

years and about average during later years.


Few of the fish

caught or observed in Tennessee streams weigh

more than 5 pounds, were more than 30 inches

long, or had reached their sixth year of life.

The record fish for Tennessee, 46 inches and

22.5 pounds, was taken by angling from Emory

River in 1947.


FOOD AND FEEDING HABITS

The muskellunge in Tennessee feed almost

entirely upon fish. Little preference is shown

by large muskellunge towards selecting any

particular species of fish. An exception to the

fish-eating tendencies of the muskellunge was

demonstrated by the presence of eight 5-inch

salamanders in the stomach of a 25-inch fish

in February 1951.

Cannibalism is common to muskellunge ....

Dave I hear you, your hitting on my thoughts exactly. This is all just a "bonus". Maybe if I could have been involved before the LMB then maybe but I have thought all along in terms of bonus and should have mentioned that.

Thanks for Muskie advice. So I finally have one number pinned down 60 14 inch muskie, now Cecil, someone give me a source?

Ewest 100% agree with you in fact portion of the report is written and it states remove all bass caught (except for the few larger ones) and also have us come in to remove as many as possible. Second part was the trouble now from predators b/c not enough forage much less adding all these other predators. We have plans to stock 2-3 inch bluegill (better than 1-2 but cheaper than 3-5 inch). Also threadfin shad. Good idea on blueback they are in Lake Burton not far away might give them a try b/c guess what they limit lmb wonder if they would do the same to smb (not good), oh well.

I don't want this guy to be a guinea pig however I think it is worth trying. I just want to try with based on the best knowledge available to me.

Ewest Maybe I can pay to have Lusk come down and give his thoughts since he has seen many parts of the country with species mentioned.

Dave on the trout it is the same here. I gave the DO/Temp profile I did not see below 70 temps with > 3 ppm DO. Are you saying trout move back and forth at the 15-17 feet range in this lake to meet both demands? I get the portion about length of time for “poor water quality”. That is what gets 90% in GA is the length of heat and shrinking of thermocline that meets both temp/Do demands required buy rainbow.

I think recruitment of many fish mentioned will be poor. I can live with that. However still need to know how many northerns, walleye, yellow perch, smb? What size, more important is there a source where I can purchase several of the species. If we are talking about small numbers of adults I would rather get many at sametime if not the per fish price will sky rocket if I have to travel to Canada to get 60 musky, etc.

Keep brainstorm coming please and thank everyone so much.

Greg - I didn't look closely enough at your temp profile. I agree, both above 70 and little DO makes a double whammy for trout.

That number of 60 muskies seems like a lot -- sort of scary. Most maintenance stockings up here are 5 to 10 per acre, but that's in an attempt to have a relatively abundant musky population. Are they a bonus, or are they a big part of the fish community. Maybe with the difficulty in locating, you start that many, and then plan no more stocking for quite a few years?

I could brainstorm more on stocking rates for the other fish species. However, maybe you should first see if Cecil or Bill can guide you to sources? Then, let's see what you can get, and go from there?

Theo - knew about chet and randy (of course), but had to look up django. I have a jazz "paucity" in my life??

Hey guys, I want to play on this one!
Greg, first, you need to have a complete understanding of available habitat for this lake. Actually, with 120 acres, you may be able to manage it in segments...one cove focused on a particular species, another with a different focus, the main body of the lake with another. So, I would first study the habitat in depth. This is a great candidate for your mapping program.
If this client is willing to spend a few dollars, you have a chance to create a world class fishery here. But, he needs to understand what that means.
If I were taking the lead, I would be doing the same homework you are doing. Habitat, first.
Next, make the assumption largemouth bass will be the dominant predator. If they are not, you have succeeded wildly beyond your dreams.
In that case, set the stage (and the buffet line) for largemouth bass.
I would definitely think about smallmouth. Know how they live. Smallmouth prefer rocky outcropping in shallows with access to deep water. They feed on crawfish, minnows and small sunfish. Provide habitat for all that. Pick an area of the lake that can support smallmouth and enhance the habitat of that area. Then, supply the habitat for the creatures smallmouth eat. In that area of the lake, make sure you have what's needed for crawfish to spawn, grow and become available. Provide shallow sunfish spawning areas with lots of pea gravel and nearby dense cover, such as brush or living vegetation as pondweeds.
Hybrid stripers...you know about those. They like open water, to range and run about. Provide them with threadfin or other shad-type fish, as well as feeders in the middle of the lake.
Don't forget about crappie in a lake this size.
Yellow perch are a bonus. Use them. They will have all the habitat they need. Whether they succeed or fail will be dependant on the other fish which compete.
Now, for the biggie...pike, musky, tiger musky. In my opinion, 60 isn't enough. I think you should stock them in bigger numbers, as many as 120. I don't think 60 will provide much of a fishery. If you stock 60, there is no accounting for attrition. If you stock 120 and they succeed wildly and begin to damage the rest of your fishery, congratulations! If they damage the largemouth bass, good! LMB will quickly rebound. If they damage the other fish as well, good! You can harvest some musky/pike and stock more of the missing fish. It's not a bad thing. You have grown some great toothy fish. Plus, you can open the season and harvest some of them. There's nothing wrong with taking a 40 inch, 20 pound tiger musky.
Look at walleye as a "put and take" fish. Talk with Mike Mitchell in Colorado. I spent three days with him here, at Lusk Lodge, Two, last week. He buys walleye as fry, paying a pittance for them. He stocks heavy, as many as 1,000 fry per acre (I think the cost around $.05 each or some nominal amount)and whatever survives, survives. That's how he overcomes the recruitment issues. Just stock the little tooters.
Greg, focus on habitat for each of these fish. You know largemouth bass, hybrid stripers, bluegill, redear, threadfin shad...now you learn about smallmouth, walleye, and the pike and musky fishies.
Regarding trout, I would get my creative juices flowing and see what you can do to add oxygen to the middle part of that lake. I believe there is some technology out there that will allow you to inject oxygen rich air into the thermocline without mixing it with the other layers. Now, that would be cutting edge fisheries management. Talk with Ted Lea, Cary Martin, Sue Cruz and some of those folks about how to inject some air in the middle and lower layers of water. Then, your management style immediately takes you to the next level.
I also think you should call and talk with Rob Jones, of Jones Fish Farm in Ohio. If he doesn't have these fish, I'll bet he knows who does.
Good stuff....go get 'em.

Thanks for the wise words, like always it seems I know alot of what you are saying but you have of way of making it more understandable.

I need to get the owner on the phone. I have left 3 VM. Altough I like to learn I have spend about 20 hours so far on this project just want to know where he stands but it is all for not. I promise to keep readers in mind here and will take good notes. I will gladly write this up Bob if indeed we do some cutting edge management. Like you said I need to see if he understands what it takes to built a world class fishery.If so you want to take a trip to north GA mountains? thanks again

I'm in! Just say the word. I'll be in North Carolina all week next week and could have some time. But, this project is right down my alley, so to speak.
Have confidence, learn about all these different fish and give this client what he wants.
Yes, keep good notes. I smell an article here. I'm proud of you...and for you!

B. B. King joins the session ... sell my clothes, I'm going to Heaven!

Right on, Theo! That B.B. King, oops I mean B.B. Lusk, enthusiasm just flows from his text!

I think that there is a way to use feeding zones as habitat.

I'd possibly stock 60 muskies and 60 tiger muskies. Then I'd create muskie and tiger muskie habitat in areas where the floating pellets would drift right by. The lepomids should naively chase the pellets right over the habitat. Then, BAM!!

Sample in two years to look at relative weights and survival of muskie vs. tigers and see which is thriving, then make that your fish of choice. If you document well enough, I think somebody's gonna get published.

If it's worth anything Indiana terminated it's tiger musky program to go with pure strain musky. The tigers don't provide the returns the pure strain do, and and don't seem to live as long or get as large. Addtionally there is no concern the pure strain will out produce their food supply because reproduction in our lakes is nil. And of course there is no longer any need to go to all the trouble of producing tigers. With the pure strain the state mearly collects broostock musky every spring, hatches the eggs, grows them out to fingerling size in a rearing pond, and then plants them.

Both Musky and Tiger Musky fingerlings are subject to severe predation by LMB (98%+) until they get to 250mm (9.84 in.) so you will need to find advanced sized fingerlings. Maybe even bigger than that as the southern LMB may be bigger than those in the northern study.

client has seen the thread, and plans to contact. I will keep you infomred on his decisions. thanks

Fascinating project Greg. I hope the client understands that this is not going to be a stock it and forget it. At first, it will be a stock it and see what happens. It will have to be monitored and plans adjusted as it develops. More than likely, some part isn't going to work at first or maybe at all.

As usual, closely monitor the forage base and the water in the various areas. But heck, you already know that.