Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Re-stocking a drought-kill .4A pond in central TX

First, I'd like to say that I appreciate the contributions you have all made to this forum. It truly is a cornucopia of farm pond wisdom.

My situation: Farm pond ~45 minutes east of San Antonio, Texas on a 30 acre place my dad owns. Averages .4 acre in size over a normal year. Maximum depth about 16 feet. Drainage area is all cattle pasture. This lake was stocked with native largemouth bass (LMB), native bluegill (BG), fathead minnows, and channel catfish (CC) soon after construction roughly 20 years ago, for purposes of basic sport fishing. It consistently produced LMB in the 12-17 inch range, and 6”-10” BG with zero stocking after the initial one. Channel cats got over 30”, but never successfully reproduced. At some point, redear sunfish (RES) showed up in small numbers, as did a few scattered bullhead (removed whenever caught) and some sunfish that looked a lot like pumpkinseed (I don’t know if they were or not, they might have been some kind of hybrid). Visibility was probably about 18”, and there was substantial filamentous algae.

The area of Texas this pond is in is suffering a terrible drought. The pond is extremely low, with probably less than 2 feet of water remaining. This indicates, to me, an almost complete fish kill. The weather in the immediate future isn’t looking good, so the pond might go completely dry.

I would like to re-stock this pond. My goal would be to develop a decent low maintenance LMB/BG pond for my family to enjoy fishing in and just being around. We probably wouldn’t be pulling many fish out to eat. Not looking for trophies either. I would also like to control that nasty filamentous algae. Not interested in putting CC back in, they just eat food without supplying much fun. Aeration and feeding are not going to happen, this property is not visited regularly enough for maintenance.


My re-stocking plan:
-Wait until the pond starts to fill back up when, [deity of your choice] willing, rain comes
-Add about 5 lb. of fatheads in October or November
-Add about 5 lb. of Golden Shiners (GSH) in December/January, along with about 75 1”-3” RES
-Add about 125 1”-3” native BG in February/March
-Add about 30 1”-3” native LMB later in the spring
-Wait 1 year
-When water starts to warm up in April or May, add 4 lb. of Mozambique Tilapia (Moz T)
-Continue adding Moz T every late spring annually, possibly adding small numbers of LMB at the same time if the population seems to be well-fed.

My questions:
-Do my numbers of fish/species/timing look good?
-Would supplemental stocking of GSH once there are bass in the pond help establish a reproducing population, or would it just be feeding the bass?
-There is no structure or cover in the pond now, beyond algae, a dock, and some weeds. Would sinking a Christmas tree be of much value?
-Should I siphon out the remaining pond water now to make sure there are no bullheads surviving?
-Is there any threat of Moz T surviving the winter and overpopulating?
-Should I stock snails or crayfish? It seems they'd be decent forage for RES and BG/LMB when they're first introduced.

Thanks to all of you who look at this, and I’m sure I’ll have more questions shortly.

Welcome to the forum txelen!

A low maintenance bass/bluegill pond is hard to come by. However, your expectations are reasonable. If you don't want to grow any trophies but just wanna have a good time catching some fish, I think your numbers and timing is good.

It's a shame folks in your area getting those nasty droughts and lose ponds every now and then. I wish I had advice on how to not let that happen, but that is not my area of knowledge. But when your pond does fill back up, I think you'll be off to a good start.

I would strongly consider pumping all the remaining water out to make sure no hold over fish are present, bullheads or any other unwanted fish species. If there are puddles they, can be treated with hydrated lime.

The addition of a few Christmas trees or other structure would be a good idea. Check out the forum for ideas... I think stocking GSH after the first year would be a waste. Hope they get a spawn or two in before the bass go in and you might have a chance. You may want to give your FHM, GSH, RES and BG a bit more time to spawn and multiply before you add the bass. Say, add the bass a year later.

I don't think the Moz T will survive winters, except the mildest of them... Your pond is too small, for there to be a warm water refuge in winter.

Best of luck!

I just did some reading online and found a scientific article on Moz T that said their northern limit is believed to be Gainesville, FL, which is two-tenths of a degree higher latitude than San Antonio. So according to that article, they would overwinter in San Antonio. From what I've read there are a lot of lakes in FL that are overrun with them, so I would be very hesitant to stock them if I were you.

Also, if you like to catch bluegill and are not just thinking of them as forage, you would be well-served to skip the GSH, as they eat the same foods bluegill do and will significantly detract from their growth. And they can take over a pond; there's a lake of over a hundred acres near me that used to have pretty good bluegill fishing, that I fished once this spring; I caught two or three small bluegill in a couple hours of fishing and dozens of GSH in the 8"-10" range. They have practically taken over the lake. And the bluegill are much smaller than they used to be.

Welcome to Pond Boss Txelen.

No matter what you do, think of hot weather. First, is there anything you can do (or inclined to do) to enlarge or deepen the pond? The current temps have been brutal. Stocking rates and weather go hand in hand. Summertime temps, overstocked water holes and oxygen crashes also have to be considered.

With the exception of RES, everything you are thinking about are spawning machines. Algae may be caused by nutrient runoff from the cattle pasture. It can be whipped but you have to identify it first.

If it were me, and it's not, I would rethink my objectives. For ponds of less than one acre with unstable water depths, I usually recommend CC and HBG.

Good points on the potential for GSH takeover, I didn't know that they competed with BG that much.

I have checked online and the closest city to this pond (Seguin, TX) has average air temperatures at or below 55 from late November to late February, with average air temps at or below 50 for a month straight. I'll definitely check with the county ag extension or others in the know for their regional expertise on the potential for Moz T takeover, but the area is appreciably cooler in the winter than Gainesville, which touches an average of 55F for a few days but goes no lower.

Have not thought about enlarging, but that may be a possibility. Would probably be a good idea.

I would be very tempted to use CNBG instead of natives if I were you.

I believe davatsa has had tilapia overwinter near San Antonio. You want to confirm, David?

What advantages would CNBG have over native BG? Is it just that they get bigger and prevent LMB from flattening the population, or are there other advantages?

Also, what are thoughts on stocking different LMB strains? I'm thinking that natives would be good because they tend to be a little smaller (less load on the BG population) and easier to catch (more fun), but I'm reading a lot of good things about these F1/Tiger hybrids. DNA diversity is also a concern to me in a small bass population. Could I avoid inbreeding by stocking natives at the start, then putting in some F1, Tiger, or Florida fingerlings two years later?

Again, I appreciate the input. Hearing from someone with Moz T experience in a similar climate would be great too.

Is your primary goal to catch big bluegill or big bass, or some of both? CNBG would almost certainly get bigger in your area, probably substantially so. They're also a really beautiful fish. I've had the privilege to catch a few and would highly recommend them.

Tiger bass are supposed to be as easy to catch as northern-strain; it's the pure Floridas that are lure-shy. The tiger bass would definitely get bigger than northern-strain. It is conceivable that due to their larger size the tiger bass could eat more large bluegill.

On the other hand, though, the place where the largest LMB have been caught the past several years, i.e. California, also has produced most of the largest bluegill of the past several years...But those were larger lakes.

Anyone on here with some good advice for txelen on tiger bass and CNBG in a small pond?

People fishing the pond would be plenty happy with medium sized bluegill and bass. It's always nice to get a 5 lb. LMB or 12" BG, but I'd rather have a pond produce easier-catching 2 lb. LMB and 7" BG

The main thing that will affect fish size is the population dynamic between the two species. If you let the bluegill overcrowd, they will be much smaller on average, but your bass will be larger. If you let the bass overcrowd, your bluegill will get huge, averaging 9" or better if you fertilize, and especially if you feed; but your bass will be significantly smaller. If you keep both species from overcrowding through diligent, well-tracked harvest, you can expect to catch good-sized individuals of both species.

I would definitely stock CNBG, as there's no downside to them where your pond is located, and they'll get significantly larger than normal bluegill.

I appreciate everyone's input so far, ya'll have cleared up a lot of questions.

-Is there any threat of Moz T surviving the winter and overpopulating? Anyone have experience with a climate similar to Seguin, TX?
-Should I stock snails or crayfish? Is that even possible? It seems they'd be decent forage for RES and BG/LMB when they're first introduced.
-Do the Tiger or F1 hybrids do well in ponds? Should I mix strains in stocking?

I have access to a slightly smaller, older pond on a different property (about 6 miles away) that's usually choked with algae and weeds. I'm thinking about getting a couple pounds of Moz T, dumping them in there once the ponds has had water for a few months, and seeing if they survive winter. The pond might not be a perfect reference: it's smaller and shallower, and also well sheltered by trees and ground contours. It should at least give me a reference for whether there's a real threat of Moz T takeover in an area pond.

You can stock snails and crayfish, but in all likelihood they will find their way into your pond naturally. You can buy crayfish from a number of different sources. Todd Overton probably could put you on a source of them. As far as snails, I know of only a couples places that sell varieties that would be good for RES to eat. They are all in the east though. I actually went and caught a few dozen from another pond and introduced them to my pond along with some clams to feed my RES. I am giving them a full year without RES to build their numbers before I introduce the RES though...

You can stock snails and crayfish, but in all likelihood they will find their way into your pond naturally. You can buy crayfish from a number of different sources. Todd Overton probably could put you on a source of them. As far as snails, I know of only a couples places that sell varieties that would be good for RES to eat. They are all in the east though. I actually went and caught a few dozen from another pond and introduced them to my pond along with some clams to feed my RES. I am giving them a full year without RES to build their numbers before I introduce the RES though...

I think you've received good advise. A lot of fish can live in 2' of water, and if you're comfortable with restocking then by all means use hydrated lime to kill off the existing population and start from scratch. I can supply crawfish in very limited qtys (because we are hungry out here on the fish farm and don't normally sell them). More importantly we can also supply all your forage and sportfish. By all means stock tilapia as forage. Look at the trophy bass lakes in Mexico that are sustained almost 100% by tilapia that live year-round.

IMO, you should stock baitfish after your pond refills:
FHM, CNBG, RES

Then sportfish in the late spring/early summer:
LMB, HSB, CC, Blue Cats

Stock Tilapia the following spring so they don't get ahead of the game.

Does anyone have experience fishing for tilapia? Are there any baits tilapia will take that BG won't?

BG will darn near eat anything... In FL we used peas a lot to catch blue tilapia.

Update:

The pond is now completely dry. Re-stocking from scratch, I guess.

Also, my family may soon be acquiring a nearby second pond. This second pond is very similar to the one I have described (.4 acre, about 14 feet deep, cattle pasture runoff). It is also just dried out completely. I am thinking about making this a Bluegill pond, with a few CC because it's fun to see them eat floating food.

With the goal of growing large bluegill for sport fishing and a few cats for waste disposal/pleasure feeding:

-Wait until the pond starts to fill back up when, [deity of your choice] willing, rain comes
-Add about 5 lb. of FHM in October or November, along with about 25 1”-3” RES for parasite control
-Add about 150 1”-3” Hybrid BG and about 6 small CC in February/March

Would I be looking at overpopulation problems? I assume the Hybrid BG, being mostly male, won't explode in population quickly, and RES are slow spawners. In a pond like this, could I have a self-sustaining FHM population if I sank some pallets? Are there any inexpensive feeders reliable enough to operate alone for 3-4 weeks at a time? I think it'd be cool to spray some floating pellets every day or two to get the HBG used to hitting surface baits, for the purpose of providing fun fly fishing. Would the CC eat all of the other fish?

Does anyone have experience stocking grass shrimp? It seems like they'd be a great forage source for sunfish.

If things start to get out of control and we have skillions of stunted sunfish, I guess I can just stock a handful of Florida strain LMB.

If you plan to stock grass shrimp, make sure there is at least some sort of cover in the pond for them or they will likely be eaten. Myself and a few others on here have recently stocked our ponds with grass shrimp, but it's too soon to tell how they have faired. One member(bobad), has added wild caught ones to his pond and has had great results.

I think a small like a half dozen of so CC should be OK in your pond and won't eat you out of house and home. They should also help keep your HBG from over populating. The HBG will hammer the snot out of your FHM, but you may be able to maintain a self sustaining population if you include a few pallets and give some them somewhere to hide as well as keep the HBG pellet fed. I have seen ponds with only CC maintain FHM, but not sure with the addition of HBG.

We had the same thing happen to us. We had two out of three (constructed in Jan) go dry after filling up. I had stocked them in April with CxB Cats, M.Til, CNBG, and FHM's all from Kenneth Henneke fish hatchery. The tank that didn't go dry produced great spawns though and yesterday I siened and restocked the other two from the one. I also purchased two adult F1 LMB to clean up the thousands of tilapia. I started with seven in each tank and with no predation, they were over-successful. I will restock them next year too. What a great forage base!

I am an aquarist so I will pull some out and overwinter in heated fish tanks before they all die in the winter. I don't think there's a downside to using tilapia except the only way I can catch them is with a cast net. They keep the algae down, they reproduce unlike anything I've ever seen, and they are shiny white fish that bass can see well. The hybrid cats also were impressive. Some only seemed to double in size while others exploded in size. In April, they were 2" and now most are probably 18" and nearly eating size.

I had been fighting the evaporation loss with a garden hose, but that proved futile when I calculated the evap loss at more than 1000 gal's a day in June, July and August. You just can't replace that. You can only hope that you get a wet winter and spring to fill them up.

I feed heavily until the water temp hits 95. I guess that explains the explosive population growth. Since I am about 60 miles East of you, we face the same issues and I'd be happy to share any hard-learned lessons with you if you have any questions.

Central Texas is finally starting to get bits of rain here and there. Hopefully there'll be enough water in the ponds to stock some FHM and RES in November.

I'd like to try one of the .4 acre places as a HBG pond, but I am worried about overpopulation if F2's manage to survive. Would a few CC be able to prevent a pond takeover? What kind of morality would HSB have in a small pond subject to high temperatures?

It'd be ideal if someone produced triploid LMB, but I have not found a hatchery that sells these. Google indicates that triploid LMB do exist. It seems that they'd be a great pond-management tool in small BOW's geared for panfish.

CC should be able to control HBG F2 numbers.

george can confirm this, but HSB should survive in a small TX pond through Summer if you don't stress them via fishing when the water is warmest (george cuts off HSB fishing at 80 or 85 degrees). IIRC, he has reported a size wall for his HSB at 4-5 pounds.

The pond is 16 feet deep, right?

We have been successful in growing out HSB in our ¼ acre pond for the past few years w/o aeration in record breaking Texas heat wave.
Last fall we transferred to main pond about 50 HSB ranging from about 1.5 lbs to ~4 lbs. Thought we had them all out of the small pond but last week caught and released 3 in the 3lb range.

Theo is correct that so far maximum wt for HSB have been in the 4-5lb range but we lost our biggest HSB last summer in a fish kill that also wiped out LMB, CNBG, CC and GC. I was expecting to break the size barrier this year with those fish.

We stop fishing for HSB when temps hit 80+ degrees as Theo mentions.
They will fight ‘til they die anytime unless landed quickly and resuscitated.
They are a blast on fly tackle.

A word of caution – HSB less than ~8 inches are expensive fish food if stocked in a pond with mature LMB.

Several studies provided that HSB can live well in small ponds in the south (as well as LMB and BG in the studies). Not sure if CC alone can control HBG reproduction. Even less sure if you also have RES and FH for those predators to eat. You would have a better chance IMO with HSB , a few CC and if needed 1 LMB (or be able to positively assure same sex LMB if you add more than 1) plus the RES and FH. The state is the only one I know of with T-LMB. They are running several study lakes with them.

Everyone's latest comments are greatly appreciated! Ya'll know a lot about this.

Now I'm very interested in HSB. What kind of HBG/HSB ratio works well for stocking in a pond, assuming no artificial aeration or feeding?

Should I supplement the HBG with RES?